Do you want to discuss boring politics? (18 Viewers)

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
Have we stopped vaccinating?

Seriously what are your expectations for a Labour leader picking up what he did in a pandemic?

He’s doing better than Corbyn under worst circumstances, it’s time to accept Richard Burgon isn’t about to lead us all to socialist paradise and get real.

The current shift in polling has been happening since Dec 2020, unless you’ve got another major event that started around that time it’s a vaccine boost.

every time someone criticises Starmer you start harping on about Corbyn and Burgon, I'm not sure what point you think it proves?
Israel have done fantastically with their vaccine program yet it hasn't done Netanyahu much good, it's an easy excuse to make to try and distract from the fact that Starmer is performing appallingly.

He was frankly embarrassing in PMQs this week.
I've no time for Rachael Reeves but when she went for it, it sounded genuinely passionate and like a proper attack, it was chalk and cheese with Starmers insipid performance.
I know i'm contradicting myself because I'm the first one to say politics is about policy not personality but Starmer just doesn't seem to connect with people. He's like a fucking wet lettuce.

I've given him time but he will not win a general election no matter how many quips you make about Corbyn, who
He had his time and failed, Starmer will go the same way unless he improves dramatically.

I wonder what stunt he'll pull soon to try and improve his popularity? I'm genuinely concerned it will involve a back to front baseball cap and a rap.

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

clint van damme said:
every time someone criticises Starmer you start harping on about Corbyn and Burgon, I'm not sure what point you think it proves?
Israel have done fantastically with their vaccine program yet it hasn't done Netanyahu much good, it's an easy excuse to make to try and distract from the fact that Starmer is performing appallingly.

He was frankly embarrassing in PMQs this week.
I've no time for Rachael Reeves but when she went for it, it sounded genuinely passionate and like a proper attack, it was chalk and cheese with Starmers insipid performance.
I know i'm contradicting myself because I'm the first one to say politics is about policy not personality but Starmer just doesn't seem to connect with people. He's like a fucking wet lettuce.

I've given him time but he will not win a general election no matter how many quips you make about Corbyn, who
He had his time and failed, Starmer will go the same way unless he improves dramatically.

I wonder what stunt he'll pull soon to try and improve his popularity? I'm genuinely concerned it will involve a back to front baseball cap and a rap.

Here’s my point:

We have one party that can realistically take power in this country. In that party we do not have very many leadership candidates. There is no Bernie or AOC waiting in the wings, a wish to see Starmer gone is a wish by definition for someone worse than him to take over. He’s doing fine, the moans reek of bitterness over Corbyn failing miserably, the same things apply to the left now as applied to the right in 2015-17: STFU and fight the Tories

Grendel · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
Here’s my point:

We have one party that can realistically take power in this country. In that party we do not have very many leadership candidates. There is no Bernie or AOC waiting in the wings, a wish to see Starmer gone is a wish by definition for someone worse than him to take over. He’s doing fine, the moans reek of bitterness over Corbyn failing miserably, the same things apply to the left now as applied to the right in 2015-17: STFU and fight the Tories

https://giphy.com/leCUThhwTxP1pQ2K0x

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

Grendel said:
https://giphy.com/leCUThhwTxP1pQ2K0x

Labour? The Left? The Labour Right? Me?

Yes

Grendel · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
Here’s my point:

We have one party that can realistically take power in this country.

At last you realise:

https://giphy.com/Su704GzLRE91QN6fHZ

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

Grendel said:
At last you realise:

https://giphy.com/Su704GzLRE91QN6fHZ

Emphasis on the “we” there

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

Got to say, loving GIF Grendel

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
Here’s my point:

We have one party that can realistically take power in this country. In that party we do not have very many leadership candidates. There is no Bernie or AOC waiting in the wings, a wish to see Starmer gone is a wish by definition for someone worse than him to take over. He’s doing fine, the moans reek of bitterness over Corbyn failing miserably, the same things apply to the left now as applied to the right in 2015-17: STFU and fight the Tories

he's not doing fine. I don't know how you can say that.
He's dreadful.
You keep mentioning the vaccine program, when did it start, I can't remember if it was just before or just after Christmas but apart from a couple of early exchanges in PMQs he hasn't laid a glove on the tories since this started when they were literally killing people with their policies.

He missed opportunity after opportunity, I knew this don't attack the government in a crisis bollocks would bite him on the arse and so it's proving.

You keep mentioning Corbyn but you're making a big mistake here, he's not crap because he's not Corbyn, he's crap because he's crap.
I said before a change of leadership would be disastrous but I now think it would be more disastrous to persevere with him.

And before you ask who to replace him I've no idea but there's got to be someone better, he's a fucking embarrassment. His Line of duty quip was the most embarrassing thing I've seen for ages, and I watched the interview where Matt Hancock pretended to cry!

PVA · Apr 16, 2021

The polls are definitely still buoyed by the vaccine bounce. Sadly the general public can't work out that when you leave those who are qualified and prepared to deal with things (the NHS & the vaccine) it goes well, but when you get your mates to do it and bung them a load of cash (PPE/track and trace) it goes tits up.

As for Starmer, he's doing OK, no more and no less. He's just in an impossible position. This government can get away with anything - blatant corruption and killing thousands of people through gross incompetence. Nothing he can say will touch them, particularly now in the middle of the vaccine bounce.

So he just has to bide his time, wait for the right moment and then go on the offensive. It's pointless doing it now. That might be a year away, a couple of years even. Elections aren't won this far in advance.

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

Philosorapter said:
Labour now 14 points behind the Tories nationally, and in the Midlands/Wales Labour are 25 points behind.

I am sure any other Labour leader would be 20 points ahead.

View attachment 19602

They wouldn't

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

clint van damme said:
he's not doing fine. I don't know how you can say that.
He's dreadful.
You keep mentioning the vaccine program, when did it start, I can't remember if it was just before or just after Christmas but apart from a couple of early exchanges in PMQs he hasn't laid a glove on the tories since this started when they were literally killing people with their policies.

He missed opportunity after opportunity, I knew this don't attack the government in a crisis bollocks would bite him on the arse and so it's proving.

You keep mentioning Corbyn but you're making a big mistake here, he's not crap because he's not Corbyn, he's crap because he's crap.
I said before a change of leadership would be disastrous but I now think it would be more disastrous to persevere with him.

And before you ask who to replace him I've no idea but there's got to be someone better, he's a fucking embarrassment. His Line of duty quip was the most embarrassing thing I've seen for ages, and I watched the interview where Matt Hancock pretended to cry!

This is exactly how the right felt in 2015, and they were proved wrong two years later. Let’s be blunt here: Labour don’t get rid of leaders until they’ve lost at least one (if not two!) GEs, there is an absolute Leadership drought in the party and has been since 2010. Just like Grendel and Robins, it’s not enough to say you want him gone, you need an alternative. And Labour don’t even have a Kenny Jackett, let alone a Pep.

What he is is a boring palette cleanser. He has to rehabilitate the party with people who outright hated us under the later Corbyn years. He’s Kinnock, not Blair. And we’ve just got to hope someone comes forward in time for the next one. We got battered in 2019 and now need a bigger swing than Blair to gain a majority.

Also the polling is OK, we’ve got stuck in a roughly 35:40 split, yes Brexit and the vaccination roll out have kept that 40% solid, I don’t know what you want me to say. Most people do give government the benefit of the doubt over pandemic deaths, but the vaccine rollout is something the government has to do and not something they have done to them so they get credit. That’s just human nature.

They will probably win the locals this year and were lucky to push it back and out of the middle of the pandemic and into “freedom party time let’s all get naked and lick each other summer of 21”, there’s not much we can do about that. As the world returns to normal we can get a better judge, but there’s no sense in calling for heads with no clear successor right now. He’s allowed a shot at a GE, give him until then.

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
This is exactly how the right felt in 2015, and they were proved wrong two years later. Let’s be blunt here: Labour don’t get rid of leaders until they’ve lost at least one (if not two!) GEs, there is an absolute Leadership drought in the party and has been since 2010. Just like Grendel and Robins, it’s not enough to say you want him gone, you need an alternative. And Labour don’t even have a Kenny Jackett, let alone a Pep.

What he is is a boring palette cleanser. He has to rehabilitate the party with people who outright hated us under the later Corbyn years. He’s Kinnock, not Blair. And we’ve just got to hope someone comes forward in time for the next one. We got battered in 2019 and now need a bigger swing than Blair to gain a majority.

Also the polling is OK, we’ve got stuck in a roughly 35:40 split, yes Brexit and the vaccination roll out have kept that 40% solid, I don’t know what you want me to say. Most people do give government the benefit of the doubt over pandemic deaths, but the vaccine rollout is something the government has to do and not something they have done to them so they get credit. That’s just human nature.

They will probably win the locals this year and were lucky to push it back and out of the middle of the pandemic and into “freedom party time let’s all get naked and lick each other summer of 21”, there’s not much we can do about that. As the world returns to normal we can get a better judge, but there’s no sense in calling for heads with no clear successor right now. He’s allowed a shot at a GE, give him until then.

you're right about not getting rid of leaders and it's an unrealistic shout I'll admit but I can't see the next GE being anything but a disaster at the moment.

fernandopartridge · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
Have we stopped vaccinating?

Seriously what are your expectations for a Labour leader picking up what he did in a pandemic?

He’s doing better than Corbyn under worst circumstances, it’s time to accept Richard Burgon isn’t about to lead us all to socialist paradise and get real.

The current shift in polling has been happening since Dec 2020, unless you’ve got another major event that started around that time it’s a vaccine boost.

It's also time to accept that the public is not interested in the politics of 1997

wingy · Apr 16, 2021

Must be time for a new party out there

Something that exploits the generational divisions.

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

wingy said:
Must be time for a new party out there

Something that exploits the generational divisions.

they're popping up every two minutes.
The right wing ones are normally headed by some grifter claiming to have been 'cancelled' and the let wing ones normally have a keystone policy of independence for someones neighbourhood or street.

wingy · Apr 16, 2021

clint van damme said:
they're popping up every two minutes.
The right wing ones are normally headed by some grifter claiming to have been 'cancelled' and the let wing ones normally have a keystone policy of independence for someones neighbourhood or street.

Almost as often as TV stations etc .

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

It's not a surprise to many that Labour continue to struggle .

The loss of Scotland will always hamper their ability to win tight elections too , and their distancing themselves from the working class over a couple of decades has damaged them for quite literally decades to come ...

It's not even about starmer at this point .

It's about them , they aren't appealing whatsoever..

Identity politics and the Middle class activist membership have made many working class people think ...nope

Again : il vote for them anyway ..maybe for the last time

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
It's not a surprise to many that Labour continue to struggle .

The loss of Scotland will always hamper their ability to win tight elections too , and their distancing themselves from the working class over a couple of decades has damaged them for quite literally decades to come ...

It's not even about starmer at this point .

It's about them , they aren't appealing whatsoever..

Identity politics and the Middle class activist membership have made many working class people think ...nope

Again : il vote for them anyway ..maybe for the last time

You keep saying this and to some extent it's true, but the party has gone from Blair/Brown to Corbyn to Starmer, not sure you can make a sweeping generalisation on the party throughout that 25 year period considering how different those leader are/were.

And I keep asking this but if Labour have abandoned the working class what have the tories done to endear themselves to them?

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

fernandopartridge said:
It's also time to accept that the public is not interested in the politics of 1997

Is that what Starmer is offering?

And define “the politics of 1997”. The fundamentals of the British electorate haven’t changed that much. Tough on crime and defence, patriotic, funds public services, rest is a bit fuzzy. No one voted for Blair because he offered academy schools or PFI contracts or Iraq, that was his personal politics he brought in after getting elected.

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

clint van damme said:
You keep saying this and to some extent it's true, but the party has gone from Blair/Brown to Corbyn to Starmer, not sure you can make a sweeping generalisation on the party throughout that 25 year period considering how different those leader are/were.

And I keep asking this but if Labour have abandoned the working class what have the tories done to endear themselves to them?

Why I left the Labour Party, or: How identity politics left me questioning who to vote for at the…

Much has been written about the crisis in the Labour Party and of progressive politics as a whole. I’m adding to it not because I claim to…

theparrhesiadiaries.medium.com

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

wingy said:
Must be time for a new party out there

Something that exploits the generational divisions.

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Why I left the Labour Party, or: How identity politics left me questioning who to vote for at the…

Much has been written about the crisis in the Labour Party and of progressive politics as a whole. I’m adding to it not because I claim to…

theparrhesiadiaries.medium.com

so even if you believe that why would people vote tory? Do people genuinely believe they give a toss about the working classes?

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

clint van damme said:
so even if you believe that why would people vote tory? Do people genuinely believe they give a toss about the working classes?

No ... I've already told you this 10x over .

It's not just about the manifesto ...it's not hard to grasp mate

Well maybe it is if you think like Labour do

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Why I left the Labour Party, or: How identity politics left me questioning who to vote for at the…

Much has been written about the crisis in the Labour Party and of progressive politics as a whole. I’m adding to it not because I claim to…

theparrhesiadiaries.medium.com

Agree with a lot of that, disagree the answer is submit to permanent one party rule. Like it or not, you’re Labour or you’re Tory. If you’re politics is at all left you gotta support the Labour Party. I naively hope if everyone did that they’d drown out the eejits.

Can I ask, as someone clearly open to Labour but not happy, what could the party do on this front? Would distancing themselves from the worst offenders help? Do you want Starmer telling a few Bernard Manning jokes? Same with patriotism, seems to me anything other than a slow drip drip approach comes off as put on and a bit ridiculous.

Ian1779 · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
Is that what Starmer is offering?

And define “the politics of 1997”. The fundamentals of the British electorate haven’t changed that much. Tough on crime and defence, patriotic, funds public services, rest is a bit fuzzy. No one voted for Blair because he offered academy schools or PFI contracts or Iraq, that was his personal politics he brought in after getting elected.

Starmer not offering anything... literally fuck all.
Also I made no reference to Corbyn... Starmer is doing shite all on his own terms.

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
Agree with a lot of that, disagree the answer is submit to permanent one party rule. Like it or not, you’re Labour or you’re Tory. If you’re politics is at all left you gotta support the Labour Party. I naively hope if everyone did that they’d drown out the eejits.

Can I ask, as someone clearly open to Labour but not happy, what could the party do on this front? Would distancing themselves from the worst offenders help? Do you want Starmer telling a few Bernard Manning jokes? Same with patriotism, seems to me anything other than a slow drip drip approach comes off as put on and a bit ridiculous.

The only reason I vote Labour is because of its manifesto and its history .

However I find myself annoyed with alot of things and as somebody who works with people on the lower end of the pay scale I'm telling you ...people don't appreciate being constantly pitted against eachother

Not one bit .

Labour must pull back its working class wall or its absolutely fucked

They won't though, they will continue down the current path

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
The only reason I vote Labour is because of its manifesto and its history .

However I find myself annoyed with alot of things and as somebody who works with people on the lower end of the pay scale I'm telling you ...people don't appreciate being constantly pitted against eachother

Not one bit .

You say that, but that’s literally what the Tories entire shtick is “look at that gay/brown/single parent/immigrant/unemployed person of the same class as you”, I get it’s not like that on a guttural level, but I mean big picture that’s the entire game: the wealthy vs the rest.

But what could Labour do that would signal a change? Not talk about racism? Expel MPs who do?

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
No ... I've already told you this 10x over .

It's not just about the manifesto ...it's not hard to grasp mate

Well maybe it is if you think like Labour do

you haven't. You've explained why not Labour, but not why tory.

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

shmmeee said:
You say that, but that’s literally what the Tories entire shtick is “look at that gay/brown/single parent/immigrant/unemployed person of the same class as you”, I get it’s not like that on a guttural level, but I mean big picture that’s the entire game: the wealthy vs the rest.

But what could Labour do that would signal a change? Not talk about racism? Expel MPs who do?

Stop telling its traditional base how privileged they are and how bad they are then try and get their vote by offering them broadband afterwards

People care about family , jobs , education and security .

The rest of the insane nonsense belongs in the bin ...

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
The only reason I vote Labour is because of its manifesto and its history .

However I find myself annoyed with alot of things and as somebody who works with people on the lower end of the pay scale I'm telling you ...people don't appreciate being constantly pitted against eachother

Not one bit .

Labour must pull back its working class wall or its absolutely fucked

They won't though, they will continue down the current path

I honestly believe that the worse thing to happen to working class, low paid people in recent times was austerity, it literally killed thousands of them, this is why I struggle with the concept of working class people voting tory.

I can accept the turning away from Labour.

clint van damme · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Stop telling its traditional base how privileged they are and how bad they are then try and get their vote by offering them broadband afterwards

People care about family , jobs , education and security .

The rest of the insane nonsense belongs in the bin ...

fucks sake mate, come on.
Security? 20k police gone, 20k police civilian support workers gone.
Education, 10 years of cuts and now Gavin Williamson in charge.
It doesn't make sense.

Grendel · Apr 16, 2021

I’m loving this thread

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

clint van damme said:
I honestly believe that the worse thing to happen to working class, low paid people in recent times was austerity, it literally killed thousands of them, this is why I struggle with the concept of working class people voting tory.

I can accept the turning away from Labour.

Mate I don't think whatever I say would make you understand .
I say that respectfully ofcourse

shmmeee · Apr 16, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Stop telling its traditional base how privileged they are and how bad they are then try and get their vote by offering them broadband afterwards

But Labour aren’t doing that, people on the left are. Or at worst, some weird backbench MPs are. Starmer isn’t out there saying people are privileged.

I’ve just googled a bunch of phrases and can’t find any reference to it from him, the party, or the shadow equalities minister.

Even in the middle of BLM he was anti defund the police and caught flack for calling BLM a “moment” from the left, he never used that type of language.

I’m not saying this as some kind of gotcha, just it’s interesting to me that the language of Corbyn is still connected despite a clearly very conscious decision to move away from it. I wonder what it would take to change perceptions.

Evo1883 · Apr 16, 2021

Grendel said:
I’m loving this thread

You go ask the lads and lasses at cov Council who pick up the bins or the workers at cov press (liberty) why they won't vote Labour anymore .

Many of them will say what I've just said

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (18 Viewers)

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