Do you want to discuss boring politics? (14 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Grendel has just solved the poverty crisis in this country: All those people in poverty who struggle to put food on the table just need to grow up and enjoy it.

Was reading something the other day regarding food banks and by far the biggest users of them are in full time employment. Cheers capitalism.

Capitalism is OK so long as it has a social conscience and in this country and elsewhere around the world it’s been allowed to abandon that conscience.

 

---

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Was reading something the other day regarding food banks and by far the biggest users of them are in full time employment. Cheers capitalism.

Capitalism is OK so long as it has a social conscience and in this country and elsewhere around the world it’s been allowed to abandon that conscience.

The irony is for capitalism to truly work the theory has to assume everyone has the same power and spending ability, thus the best ideas and solutions come to the fore purely on merit. It totally ignores the imbalance which can lead to the best ideas not being implemented because of the imbalance of power in favour of the systems and solutions already in place. And those will use that to retain their power and influence. We should have moved on from stuff like fossil fuels and nuclear long ago and it's taken so long just because those industries are so powerful they've stifled development and implementation.

Capitalism in its purest form could be argued to have no social conscience at all. It's all about greed and what you can get for yourself. In order to climb to the top of that particular tree you need to essentially be sociopathic - any sign of weakness or empathy and someone will push you out of the way until those that eventually end up right at the top are the worst examples for it as a means to run a society.

But I agree that a similar system with a social conscience would work alright i think. As I've said before, it needs to learn one word - enough.

 

[shmmeee]

This one will do.

Oh, any news on when the Forde Inquiry is going to report?

---


'As Labour councillors we support the recent call from colleagues for new leadership at the top of our party.


Keir Starmer is an honourable man with a record of public service stretching back more than five years


We are drawn from a number of traditions within our movement, including those who voted for Keir last year.


It has now become clear, however, that he is unable to command the confidence of the whole party nor of many traditional Labour supporters we speak with on the doorstep.


Our country is facing a crisis – and the neighbourhoods we represent are on the front line. We urge Keir Starmer to make way for the new leadership that our communities so desperately need.


Yours sincerely,

---

OMG you found an internal argument in Labour!

Call Fleet Street and claim your scoop!!

 

[Deleted member 4439]

It's worse than I could have imagined

Edwin Poots tipped to succeed Arlene Foster as DUP leader

NI agriculture minister, a young Earth creationist, thought to have been key figure in toppling of Foster

www.theguardian.com

 

[Evo1883]

Many of the people w

It's worse than I could have imagined

Edwin Poots tipped to succeed Arlene Foster as DUP leader

NI agriculture minister, a young Earth creationist, thought to have been key figure in toppling of Foster

www.theguardian.com

"A young earth creationist "

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Edwin Poots: Matthew, you're telling me that cosmic balls of dust gathered and there was an explosion. We've had lots of explosions in Northern Ireland and I've never seen anything come out of that that was good. And you look at this earth and you tell me that there was a big bang and all of a sudden all tat is good about this earth came out of it?

Matthew Parris: Good heavens! You're the culture minister and you don't believe in evolution?

Edwin Poots: Yes, absolutely. And you're telling me that all of this evolution took place over billions of years, and yet it's only in the last few thousand years that Man could actually learn to write?

William Crawley: How old is the earth?

Edwin Poots: My view on the earth is that it's a young earth. My view is 4000 BC.

BBC - Will & Testament: Are religious politicians "nutters"?

We had a little spat on Sunday Sequence this morning between the Times columnist Matthew Parris and Northern Ireland's culture minister, after the latter, Edwin Poots, made it clear that...

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[shmmeee]

I used to work for young Earth creationists at Grace Academy. Bunch of loons, never met anyone as batshit in real life before or since.

 

[Evo1883]

Edwin Poots: Matthew, you're telling me that cosmic balls of dust gathered and there was an explosion. We've had lots of explosions in Northern Ireland and I've never seen anything come out of that that was good. And you look at this earth and you tell me that there was a big bang and all of a sudden all tat is good about this earth came out of it?

Matthew Parris: Good heavens! You're the culture minister and you don't believe in evolution?

Edwin Poots: Yes, absolutely. And you're telling me that all of this evolution took place over billions of years, and yet it's only in the last few thousand years that Man could actually learn to write?

William Crawley: How old is the earth?

Edwin Poots: My view on the earth is that it's a young earth. My view is 4000 BC.

BBC - Will & Testament: Are religious politicians "nutters"?

We had a little spat on Sunday Sequence this morning between the Times columnist Matthew Parris and Northern Ireland's culture minister, after the latter, Edwin Poots, made it clear that...

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Grendel]

For some it is. But for most it's an increasing fear of change as the brain loses its plasticity. They just can't contemplate things being different. Fewer and fewer people are 'enjoying' the benefits of capitalism in this country. Wealth division is huge and increasing at an ever quickening rate.

Rubbish

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Scottish independence yes vote polling at its lowest for a good while .

Have no idea why , just putting the information out their

46% yes currently

A few factors I think

Anas Sarwar doing particularly well leading Scottish Labour (doubled approval rating in a short space of time)

The shift of the election away from forcing Brexit on a country that didn’t want it and on to the UK led vaccination programme

Perceived splintering of the pro independence factions

With a bit of luck the vile Sturgeon will be denied a majority yet again.

 

[shmmeee]

For some it is. But for most it's an increasing fear of change as the brain loses its plasticity. They just can't contemplate things being different. Fewer and fewer people are 'enjoying' the benefits of capitalism in this country. Wealth division is huge and increasing at an ever quickening rate.

Recent evidence suggests brain plasticity isn’t lost in adulthood as much as thought.

It’s mostly economic. Old people have less economic mobility and are reliant on assets more to maintain their lifestyle (I.e. care less about wages and more about pensions and house prices).

 

[clint van damme]

Edwin Poots: Matthew, you're telling me that cosmic balls of dust gathered and there was an explosion. We've had lots of explosions in Northern Ireland and I've never seen anything come out of that that was good. And you look at this earth and you tell me that there was a big bang and all of a sudden all tat is good about this earth came out of it?

Matthew Parris: Good heavens! You're the culture minister and you don't believe in evolution?

Edwin Poots: Yes, absolutely. And you're telling me that all of this evolution took place over billions of years, and yet it's only in the last few thousand years that Man could actually learn to write?

William Crawley: How old is the earth?

Edwin Poots: My view on the earth is that it's a young earth. My view is 4000 BC.

BBC - Will & Testament: Are religious politicians "nutters"?

We had a little spat on Sunday Sequence this morning between the Times columnist Matthew Parris and Northern Ireland's culture minister, after the latter, Edwin Poots, made it clear that...

www.bbc.co.uk

I was about to laugh until I remembered that in a time of austetrity we gave them a billion quid back hander.
Sweet mother of God!!

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Odd that he believes in evolution yet this appears not to apply to humans, just fish presumably. This not about whether you believe in a God or not, it's a whole new, simply amazing fruitcake level 10.

 

[skybluetony176]

The irony is for capitalism to truly work the theory has to assume everyone has the same power and spending ability, thus the best ideas and solutions come to the fore purely on merit. It totally ignores the imbalance which can lead to the best ideas not being implemented because of the imbalance of power in favour of the systems and solutions already in place. And those will use that to retain their power and influence. We should have moved on from stuff like fossil fuels and nuclear long ago and it's taken so long just because those industries are so powerful they've stifled development and implementation.

Capitalism in its purest form could be argued to have no social conscience at all. It's all about greed and what you can get for yourself. In order to climb to the top of that particular tree you need to essentially be sociopathic - any sign of weakness or empathy and someone will push you out of the way until those that eventually end up right at the top are the worst examples for it as a means to run a society.

But I agree that a similar system with a social conscience would work alright i think. As I've said before, it needs to learn one word - enough.

The biggest myth in capitalism is trickle down economics. If we had it working people wouldn’t be dependent on food banks. We’ll get to the point where we’ll have work houses again, Rees-Mogg will be describing them as uplifting, Boris will ruffle his barnet while saying something in Latin that he doesn’t understand, someone else will say trickle down economics will save the day and the plebs will lap it up.

 

[shmmeee]

Capitalism is the best innovation mechanism we have, and a reasonably good resource allocation method (although modern marketing is kind of skewing that IMO). But it’s not a stable economic system. It rewards monopoly and creates feedback loops that funnel money upwards constantly. It also rewards the worst of human nature and needs curbing for humanitarian reasons.

Without a mechanism for extracting wealth from the top and recycling it back into the masses at the bottom we don’t get good capitalism. Good capitalism relies on the wisdom of crowds voting with their money on priorities, not small cabals of lucky individuals making choices.

Anyone against trickle up economics isn’t a capitalist, they’re a feudalist.

 

[Philosoraptor]

The biggest myth in capitalism is trickle down economics. If we had it working people wouldn’t be dependent on food banks. We’ll get to the point where we’ll have work houses again, Rees-Mogg will be describing them as uplifting, Boris will ruffle his barnet while saying something in Latin that he doesn’t understand, someone else will say trickle down economics will save the day and the plebs will lap it up.

The second-biggest myth is to say large scale infrastructure projects where money goes straight into the hands of the workers, works as well. The only thing that saved America's 'New Deal' was a World War which paid for all the infrastructure being built and full employment.

 

[Philosoraptor]

 

[mrtrench]

The biggest myth in capitalism is trickle down economics. If we had it working people wouldn’t be dependent on food banks. We’ll get to the point where we’ll have work houses again, Rees-Mogg will be describing them as uplifting, Boris will ruffle his barnet while saying something in Latin that he doesn’t understand, someone else will say trickle down economics will save the day and the plebs will lap it up.

 

[Grendel]

But certainly not logical Jim

 

[mrtrench]

I am not working class.

 

[Grendel]

Imagine Spock doing a Vulcan mind probe on The Tonester and PVA

 

[skybluetony176]

Imagine Spock doing a Vulcan mind probe on The Tonester and PVA

Well. If nothing else you’re moving on from homo erotic fantasies about me so I guess that’s something.

 

[mrtrench]

Well. If nothing else you’re moving on from homo erotic fantasies about me so I guess that’s something.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Labour 11 points behind nationally and in the Wales/Midlands area Labour is a whopping 21 points behind.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Faz, there is only one real thing to watch for in the Local Elections in Coventry and the vote for the WMCA Mayor overall and this is how low the turnout will be.

Apathy rules any local area when there's not a distinctive difference to be made between the main parties.

The lower the turnout gets the more chance that when a voice is heard which offers something different, be it good or bad, people will jump on it, and if it is bad then there won't be any significant support to stop it.

Whilst we can all argue about the rights and wrong of policies of the Brexit Party the lessons are there to be learned for everyone of what an orchestrated quick campaign can achieve in an election.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Faz, there is only one real thing to watch for in the Local Elections in Coventry and the vote for the WMCA Mayor overall and this is how low the turnout will be.

Apathy rules any local area when there's not a distinctive difference to be made between the main parties.

The lower the turnout gets the more chance that when a voice is heard which offers something different, be it good or bad, people will jump on it, and if it is bad then there won't be any significant support to stop it.

Whilst we can all argue about the rights and wrong of policies of the Brexit Party the lessons are there to be learned for everyone of what an orchestrated quick campaign can achieve in an election.

The lesson is to merge Labour/LD/Green and keep the Tories out for good

 

[Skybluefaz]

Faz, there is only one real thing to watch for in the Local Elections in Coventry and the vote for the WMCA Mayor overall and this is how low the turnout will be.

Apathy rules any local area when there's not a distinctive difference to be made between the main parties.

The lower the turnout gets the more chance that when a voice is heard which offers something different, be it good or bad, people will jump on it, and if it is bad then there won't be any significant support to stop it.

Whilst we can all argue about the rights and wrong of policies of the Brexit Party the lessons are there to be learned for everyone of what an orchestrated quick campaign can achieve in an election.

I think you are right about low turnout. My reply was meant mainly to point towards the difference in these opinion polls/surveys. They are all over the place.

I'd be surprised if Andy Street doesn't romp home in the mayoral vote though. He and the conservatives are hammering Facebook with content in both local groups and paid for advertising.

 

[shmmeee]

Tories: get 90% approval on the public’s number one priority by some distance. Something unheard of in post war times.

Everyone: is this proof of my own personal theories about Labour??

 

[mrtrench]

These are the votes for the Socialist Party in France over 50 years. Next election they are predicted to not even make it past the first round.



Some people are speculating that the British Labour Party is going the same way. My pet theory is that Ed Miliband's decision to stand against his brother and move Left was a critical moment in history. And the courting of the woke is alienating traditional Labour voters in the North further still.

 

[Skybluefaz]

These are the votes for the Socialist Party in France over 50 years. Next election they are predicted to not even make it past the first round.

View attachment 19877

Some people are speculating that the British Labour Party is going the same way. My pet theory is that Ed Miliband's decision to stand against his brother and move Left was a critical moment in history. And the courting of the woke is alienating traditional Labour voters in the North further still.

What do you actually mean by 'courting of the woke'?

 

[mrtrench]

What do you actually mean by 'courting of the woke'?

I mean all the post-modern stuff that appeals to middle-class Socialists: self gender-id; trans women in women's toilets and prisons; no-platforming; critical race theory; taking the knee for BLM... I think Starmer is astute enough to realise that what plays well in Islington doesn't in Hartlepool - but he's not going to find it easy to find a path through the middle and he still has people like Rayner who will pull him away from Workington man.

 

[shmmeee]

I mean all the post-modern stuff that appeals to middle-class Socialists: self gender-id; trans women in women's toilets and prisons; no-platforming; critical race theory; taking the knee for BLM... I think Starmer is astute enough to realise that what plays well in Islington doesn't in Hartlepool - but he's not going to find it easy to find a path through the middle and he still has people like Rayner who will pull him away from Workington man.

Love it when Islington is used as an insult, when only one of the two party leaders lives there, and it isn’t Starmer.

I think the woke stuff isn’t liked, but I don’t think the British public is the 14 year old edge lords you portray them as either.

Polling suggests the public support self id and medically transitioned TW in women’s spaces for example, but not untransitioned:



On this issue alone Con voters are out of step on 7 compared to 6 for Labour voters.

On BLM and taking the knee the public is split but generally supports the aims of BLM:




That first column after the totals is Con voters, again out of step with public opinion on the overall issue.

There’s little to no polling on CRT because outside of edgelord and woke Twitter it’s a completely meaningless phrase with no cut through to the general public.

And you say middle class, but again the proportion of votes from the middle classes are higher for the Tories than Labour:



It really doesn’t get more complex than this:



And this:

 

[mrtrench]

Love it when Islington is used as an insult, when only one of the two party leaders lives there, and it isn’t Starmer.

I think the woke stuff isn’t liked, but I don’t think the British public is the 14 year old edge lords you portray them as either.

Polling suggests the public support self id and medically transitioned TW in women’s spaces for example, but not in transitioned:

View attachment 19879

On this issue alone Con voters are out of step on 7 compared to 6 for Labour voters.

On BLM and taking the knee the public is split but generally supports the aims of BLM:

View attachment 19881
View attachment 19880

That first column after the totals is Con voters, again out of step with public opinion on the overall issue.

There’s little to no polling on CRT because outside of edgelord and woke Twitter it’s a completely meaningless phrase with no cut through to the general public.

And you say middle class, but again the proportion of votes from the middle classes are higher for the Tories than Labour:

View attachment 19882

It really doesn’t get more complex than this:

View attachment 19884

And this:

View attachment 19883

"Islington" - I wanted one word to summarise the kind of people to whom I was referring. It wasn't intended as an insult but a reference point.

"Woke Stuff" - I tend to agree. Britain is, on the whole, a very tolerant society. Few, I suspect, would have any serious issue with a bloke wearing women's clothes and saying he's a woman - although they might be more likely to take the piss in a pub than to admit to being a bigot in a survey. However I also think that the typical person who would have a problem may be a builder or similar - i.e. working class.

But wokery takes it further than that and that's the bit people don't like: trans women playing in female sports and women with male genitalia being resident in women's prisons. I don't think that all these new genders play well with the general public either. It's not even about policies per se... it's perception. If you get a Labour MP insisting that we call them by some new pronoun, it'll be all over the news and not good news for Starmer. And I can imagine it happening.

Similarly, I think even fewer people nowadays think of themselves as racist... even some people I knew in the 80s who crossed well over the line for me no longer behave in that way. But what about the state paying reparations to all black people for slavery? I doubt that would be popular - but I can imagine Starmer being forced into taking that position.

There will be pressure on Starmer to sign off on the more extreme positions. This is what I meant.

 

[Grendel]

"Islington" - I wanted one word to summarise the kind of people to whom I was referring. It wasn't intended as an insult but a reference point.

"Woke Stuff" - I tend to agree. Britain is, on the whole, a very tolerant society. Few, I suspect, would have any serious issue with a bloke wearing women's clothes and saying he's a woman - although they might be more likely to take the piss in a pub than to admit to being a bigot in a survey. However I also think that the typical person who would have a problem may be a builder or similar - i.e. working class.

But wokery takes it further than that and that's the bit people don't like: trans women playing in female sports and women with male genitalia being resident in women's prisons. I don't think that all these new genders play well with the general public either. It's not even about policies per se... it's perception. If you get a Labour MP insisting that we call them by some new pronoun, it'll be all over the news and not good news for Starmer. And I can imagine it happening.

Similarly, I think even fewer people nowadays think of themselves as racist... even some people I knew in the 80s who crossed well over the line for me no longer behave in that way. But what about the state paying reparations to all black people for slavery? I doubt that would be popular - but I can imagine Starmer being forced into taking that position.

There will be pressure on Starmer to sign off on the more extreme positions. This is what I meant.

The pressure really will be on him if he loses Hartlepool

I suspect many of the internal hierarchy want him to lose it

 

[PVA]

I mean all the post-modern stuff that appeals to middle-class Socialists: self gender-id; trans women in women's toilets and prisons; no-platforming; critical race theory; taking the knee for BLM... I think Starmer is astute enough to realise that what plays well in Islington doesn't in Hartlepool - but he's not going to find it easy to find a path through the middle and he still has people like Rayner who will pull him away from Workington man.

Woke
Gender
Trans
Race
BLM
Islington