fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree with you I'm just pointing out that the remain campaign failed to act as that failsafe
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (188 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The single market was never a choice. That was clear from the start. May was told “hard Brexit or you’re out” then when she didn’t deliver the unicorn we got Boris who was onboard and still couldn’t deliver the unicorn but had enough Vote Leave cred to get it through.
The Tories were scared they’d have the membership after them if they didn’t join in the swivel eyed lunacy or they’d lose the whip under Johnson.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
They had no political capital whatsoever after the vote. And what was very clear was that any Brexit which left us with free movement and ECJ involvement wouldn’t fly.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Ha ha ha ha. Let’s blame those that voted against the cluster fuck.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
We didn’t expect a lion to eat our face said the representative from the lion eating our face party.
The only people who are to blame for the brexit that we ended up with are the people who campaigned and voted for brexit.
The only people who are to blame for the brexit that we ended up with are the people who campaigned and voted for brexit.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Clearly there’s still some leave voters who still can’t grow up enough to look in the mirror and face their mistake. I must admit I didn’t expect it to be FP but here we are.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The May government had a fragile majority - I assume this is referencing the Kinnock vote. If every remain mp voted for it it surely would have passed wouldn’t it?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Remind me again who the “remain” whip is again?
I don’t think that was the point being made. Out was always out so some oriole should have engaged their brain and voted for the best compromise option rather than plodding on to an inevitable defeat
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
You said the Remain MPs, just wondering who that was, as surely you understand how parliamentary democracy works.
When did the government table a vote on SM access?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Oddly yes I fully understand how it works thanks - Shame Mr Starmer with his tremendous idea for a 2nd referendum in the manifesto failed to understand how democracy worked full stop. Well not a shame for Mr Johnson
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I don’t think Fernandos talking about blaming anyone. It’s more just dealing with the reality of the situation.
Agree with comments that rejoining the SM wouldn’t have worked post referendum as a majority who voted leave would’ve had at least a passing issue with freedom of movement. Even now, with employment/staffing issues this would be major challenge
Sides have overplayed their hand throughout this (before and after vote) which is why we’ve ended up with the shitshow of a hard Brexit that only a small proportion probably wanted in 2016.
A Swiss style solution appears a sensible ish option ie various bilateral agreements over key issues in particular trading, security etc. More relaxed rules on EU migration, less friction with trade and presumably this would resolve NI situation. It would be a big step in the right direction
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Sorry my Grendel translator is on the blink since the update, but I *think* you’re saying “yea shmmeee you’re right obviously I know that only the govenrment could propose such a bill and that Conservative Party MPs have to follow the whip and the shadow Secretary of State for Exiting the EU has no ability to do that” but I may have misheard.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The reality of the situation is it was a huge mistake. The only people responsible for that are those who campaigned for it and voted for it choosing to believe people like Rees-Mogg and Boris who had their own agendas rather than experts who called it correctly. Until people start levelling that in their heads they’re only making the situation worse. Either that or they’re a racist, xenophobic or right wing ideologists.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
As if Tony isn't exhibiting the exact attitude that I'm talking about
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You were the one stupid enough to fall for it. Me and you had one day to influence last 6 years and it was in 2016. I voted remain, you voted leave and paved the way for everything that followed. Including a Boris Johnson majority. All on you. You may as well be a Tory.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
From you, a UKIP voter
JAM See
Well-Known Member
D
Deleted member 9744
Guest
Is Tony right that you voted for Brexit? And now you are calling remainers idiots and responsible for the harm it has done?From you, a UKIP voter
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Yeah. I worked it out. You’re still there.From you, a UKIP voter
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Yes, I've been open about it and open about what I wanted from it, have a look at the EU thread. Was quite happy with the idea of being a rule taker in exchange for access to the single market. It's still a lot different from being expected to implement every single EU law.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Anyway let's not divert this thread into another EU one. My last point on Brexit is that it's not a problem in itself, it's just a symptom of 40+ years of rampant neoliberalism which is the real problem.
It's an empty victory for a lot of leave voters because ultimately the same basic economic system is in place which delivers the same outcomes.
It's an empty victory for a lot of leave voters because ultimately the same basic economic system is in place which delivers the same outcomes.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Have a look back through the EU thread you balloon - I admitted my own mistake a long time ago but only in retrospect. Leave itself did not need to be the problem it has become.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
He's probably one of the most left-wing posters on the forum.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The labour leader and deputy at the time - whatever they put out in public wanted out - a lifelong ambition achieved. The Tory majority was because of dimwit Starmer in his job at the time trying to reverse the decision
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Agreed on the first point.
The entrenched positions after the debate and the refusal of both sides to find compromises led to the current situation. The Remain campaign was poorly executed and got grabbed into polarising arguments by Leave and focused on negativity, rather than highlighting the benefits and positives of EU membership.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Admitting your mistake and being in denial of the consequences of your vote are two different things. There was only going to be one outcome to leave. You’re trying to blame remain MP’s for the consequences of your vote. Everything that followed is on you. Brexit was only ever going to lead to Boris as PM, a vote for leave was a vote for Boris. There never was going to be any benefits for the simple fact that it was Boris, Gove, Cummings, Hannan, Rees-Mogg, Davies, Redwood etc who sold it too you. You’re calling me a balloon, look at the Tories you had to pinch your nose and get into bed with when voting leave. You took leave of common sense and your valued political principles when you did that. That’s before you even consider the racist and xenophobes you jumped into bed with too. And now you’re blaming remain MP’s for not voting for something that they never had the option to vote for. I can only assume that you’ve gone so far left that you’re now far right, you just haven’t realised it yet. Blaming everyone else for the consequences of your own actions is straight out of the far right play book. It’s foreigners, it’s the left, it’s remainers, it’s the woke, it’s the RNLA, it’s the National Trust. We’ve had 12 years of right wing nationalism, you decided to at the very least lend them your vote. It’s all on them.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Yet he uses the language of the right. It’s leavers fault. Straight out of the ERG/Ferage playbook.
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Starmers name doesn’t come up once in the analysis of why Labour lost in 2019. Try harder.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Have a day off
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I honestly think you’re better than this. You need to have a look at yourself and consider my points. I won’t have a “day off” either. You know my background, you know I know first hand how hard the GFA was to get, so no I won’t take a day off. I have 2 teenage children, the eldest doing her GCSE’s and is going to suffer the most leaving school in 2 1/2 years time not only dealing with the damage of your political ideology and ultimately it’s her generation who’s going to have to repair that damage. And you want to blame me and others who don’t share your ideology, go fuck yourself. It’s all on you and the moronic wing of the Tories, the racist and the xenophobes that you’re happy to keep company with. Take a day off yourself, take a look in the mirror and have a long conversation with yourself. You’re lost.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
No, they didn't
No, I didn't
No, i didn't, there is nothing remotely left wing about the European Union, it is a pro-market endeavor, its whole function is to open up a pan-European market for economic operators (usually large corporations) to exploit, I deal with one of the manifestations of this every day of my working life. Please see Article 3 of the Treaty for the Functioning of the European Union.
UKIP Tony, really? Why were you attracted to the overtly right wing and anti-immigration UKIP in the first place?
There was a vote on a Labour amendment in relation to retaining the UK as a member of the EEA and therefore access to the single market (Swiss are not EEA members but nevertheless retain SM access) in fairness Labour leave MPs backed the amendment but prominent Tory remain MPs did not. I'll give you that.
Horeshoe theory, who'd have thought you'd come up with that drivel
You continually prove my point, where on earth have I said it's all on leave MPs?
