Do you want to discuss boring politics? (33 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Yet again showing how stupid you are, the left case for brexit is

1. No compulsory privatisation of public services
2. Ability to elect a government that has full control over all legislation enacted in the UK

Surely you've got faith that Keir Starmer and his forthcoming Labour government shall not only keep the best elements of current employment law but also improve them in favour of workers?

So what happens when the Tories get in again? They undo everything that Labour gave back to the working classes without the EU providing the bottom rung of the ladder. Leave has basically put us into a perpetual slide and climb of worker’s rights. Well done.

 

---

[clint van damme]

So what happens when the Tories get in again? They undo everything that Labour gave back to the working classes without the EU providing the bottom rung of the ladder. Leave has basically put us into a perpetual slide and climb of worker’s rights. Well done.

We're not going to have to wait for them to get in again, Brexit Freedom Bill comes into effect on New year's eve.
Some of the anti union mob on here will be delighted to see some of our hard won freedoms rolled back no doubt.

 

[Sick Boy]

We're not going to have to wait for them to get in again, Brexit Freedom Bill comes into effect on New year's eve.
Some of the anti union mob on here will be delighted to see some of our hard won freedoms rolled back no doubt.

Is that 2023?

 

[clint van damme]

Is that 2023?

You're correct, thought it was this year, enjoy your paid holidays for the next 12 months people!

 

[skybluetony176]

While on the subject of the own goal they’re trying to sell us another brexit win, pork exports to South Korea. Sounds good until you look at the reality.

First of all they’re saying it could be worth £1M over five years, or £200K a year. Wow wee. Slight problem, Britain is loosing £4M a year in pork exports to the EU because of brexit.

Secondly. The government and right wing press aren’t going to tell you this but it looks like it’s a partial copy and paste of a deal that the EU did with South Korea back in September. Partial because the EU/South Korea deal also included poultry whereas ours doesn’t seem to. So basically our farmers would be enjoying a better deal had we remained.

Thirdly. We had to cull 10% of the pigs we raised last year because of the loss of freedom of movement meaning we no longer have the skilled workers available to slaughter and butcher the pigs we raised.

So just to recap. “Could” be up to £1M over five years. Isn’t going to replace the known £4M loss a year due to brexit. Could have had a better deal if we were still in. Probably can’t take advantage of the deal anyway as we’ve lost the ability to process what pigs we’ve got already. In other words they think we’re all stupid enough to buy it as a win.

 

[Sick Boy]

I’m over at the moment and most places seem to have signs up about staffing and/or supply chain issues impacting service(s)…I wonder why?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

While on the subject of the own goal they’re trying to sell us another brexit win, pork exports to South Korea. Sounds good until you look at the reality.

First of all they’re saying it could be worth £1M over five years, or £200K a year. Wow wee. Slight problem, Britain is loosing £4M a year in pork exports to the EU because of brexit.

Secondly. The government and right wing press aren’t going to tell you this but it looks like it’s a partial copy and paste of a deal that the EU did with South Korea back in September. Partial because the EU/South Korea deal also included poultry whereas ours doesn’t seem to. So basically our farmers would be enjoying a better deal had we remained.

Thirdly. We had to cull 10% of the pigs we raised last year because of the loss of freedom of movement meaning we no longer have the skilled workers available to slaughter and butcher the pigs we raised.

So just to recap. “Could” be up to £1M over five years. Isn’t going to replace the known £4M loss a year due to brexit. Could have had a better deal if we were still in. Probably can’t take advantage of the deal anyway as we’ve lost the ability to process what pigs we’ve got already. In other words they think we’re all stupid enough to buy it as a win.

It’s still good it’s still good

 

[fernandopartridge]

So what happens when the Tories get in again? They undo everything that Labour gave back to the working classes without the EU providing the bottom rung of the ladder. Leave has basically put us into a perpetual slide and climb of worker’s rights. Well done.

Employment law in the UK originated in the UK, and is generally superior to the minimum EU standards. This despite having had Tory governments for most of the last 100 years.

The function of EU employment law is as much about the 4 freedoms as it is about creating better conditions for an employee.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I’m over at the moment and most places seem to have signs up about staffing and/or supply chain issues impacting service(s)…I wonder why?

A food pub near me is even offering to take somebody on as a chef with no experience, in some respects that is good (creating career opportunities) but does show access to labour has been massively reduced.

 

[fernandopartridge]

No I am not confident that Starmer would bring back the employment protections that we will lose because of Brexit. It would take decades of Labour Governments to get those back, which is exactly why we needed the certainty of being part of the EU.

The point of Brexit for the Tories was deregulation and abolishing employment rights. The nonsense about sovereignty and the nationalism and xenophobia was just for the 'plebs' so they would vote against their best interests. I would rather have EU law protections than having the Tories having full control of our laws.

Apologies for calling you stupid, it was unfair and I'd had a few

 

[skybluetony176]

Employment law in the UK originated in the UK, and is generally superior to the minimum EU standards. This despite having had Tory governments for most of the last 100 years.

The function of EU employment law is as much about the 4 freedoms as it is about creating better conditions for an employee.

What you fail to acknowledge or understand is that EU law is about protecting its members laws on everything from tax to human rights to workers rights. Our laws may have been created in the UK but they were protected by EU laws. That protection has gone and the Tory government you helped to install with your flawed ideology are going to undo decades and decades of what the unions fought for. It’s happening in front of your very eyes and you’re still in denial of the consequences of your ideology. Maybe I misjudged you when I said you were intelligent enough to understand what you’ve done.

 

[CCFCSteve]

A food pub near me is even offering to take somebody on as a chef with no experience, in some respects that is good (creating career opportunities) but does show access to labour has been massively reduced.

You’re wasting your breath mate. People ignore the fact that there’s a massive shortage of staff in many western countries due to post pandemic illness and people choosing to leave the workforce…oh, and the fact that we still had 500k-600k net migration this year.

We should be focussing on training and retraining the people we have, getting pay right and encouraging business investment* rather than continue the Ponzi scheme of ploughing more and more cheap labour into the country whatever their skills which is what happened with freedom of movement. Since the financial crisis productivity has been on its arse, yet our population has grown by at least 6% in a decade excluding illegal migrants….that’s 3.5m+ more people who all need public services, housing etc during a period post austerity when government expenditure was squeezed. How is this never mentioned in mainstream media ?! Too easy to shout brexit at everything and anything. It’s crazy


ps didn’t we have a separate thread for this stuff ? I prefer to keep this one for the who’s the most leftie battles

*as well as plugging immediate skills gaps with relaxed visa requirements in specific areas like social care

 

[Sick Boy]

You’re wasting your breath mate. People ignore the fact that there’s a massive shortage of staff in many western countries due to post pandemic illness and people choosing to leave the workforce…oh, and the fact that we still had 500k-600k net migration this year.

We should be focussing on training and retraining the people we have, getting pay right and encouraging business investment* rather than continue the Ponzi scheme of ploughing more and more cheap labour into the country whatever their skills which is what happened with freedom of movement. Since the financial crisis productivity has been on its arse, yet our population has grown by at least 6% in a decade excluding illegal migrants….that’s 3.5m+ more people who all need public services, housing etc during a period post austerity when government expenditure was squeezed. How is this never mentioned in mainstream media ?! Too easy to shout brexit at everything and anything. It’s crazy


ps didn’t we have a separate thread for this stuff ? I prefer to keep this one for the who’s the most leftie battles

*as well as plugging immediate skills gaps with relaxed visa requirements in specific areas like social care

Got any links to studies about a shortage of staff across the west?
Adding cheap labour to the workforce also happened pre freedom of movement too, BTW.

 

[David O'Day]

Got any links to studies about a shortage of staff across the west?
Adding cheap labour to the workforce also happened pre freedom of movement too, BTW.

There was an OECD paper in July but that didn't actually show what he is claiming

 

[SBT]

our population has grown by at least 6% in a decade excluding illegal migrants….that’s 3.5m+ more people who all need public services, housing etc during a period post austerity when government expenditure was squeezed. How is this never mentioned in mainstream media ?!

I have a couple of newspaper recommendations for you

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Apologies for calling you stupid, it was unfair and I'd had a few

No problem mate. I think we've all been called far worse.

 

[skybluetony176]

There was an OECD paper in July but that didn't actually show what he is claiming

IIRC correctly it’s a skills shortage not a labour shortage as such.

 

[fernandopartridge]

What you fail to acknowledge or understand is that EU law is about protecting its members laws on everything from tax to human rights to workers rights. Our laws may have been created in the UK but they were protected by EU laws. That protection has gone and the Tory government you helped to install with your flawed ideology are going to undo decades and decades of what the unions fought for. It’s happening in front of your very eyes and you’re still in denial of the consequences of your ideology. Maybe I misjudged you when I said you were intelligent enough to understand what you’ve done.

What you fail to acknowledge or understand is that EU law is about protecting its members laws on everything from tax to human rights to workers rights. Our laws may have been created in the UK but they were protected by EU laws. That protection has gone and the Tory government you helped to install with your flawed ideology are going to undo decades and decades of what the unions fought for. It’s happening in front of your very eyes and you’re still in denial of the consequences of your ideology. Maybe I misjudged you when I said you were intelligent enough to understand what you’ve done.

The EU laws on employment are for the purpose of the functioning of the single market. Yes they offer a minimum standard but what you fail to acknowledge is that those standards are often inferior to those new legislated in the UK where they are even legislated for, the EU employment laws don't even cover the same breadth of issues as the UK laws. For somebody who is such an EU advocate surely you should know a bit more about it!?

Now I trust the Tories less than anybody (unlike you I haven't voted for them or their extremist wing UKIP) but they are really not so stupid as to slash employment rights to a level lower than the minimum EU standards. The Trade and Cooperation agreement between UK and EU I believe expects that the UK will adopt at least comparable standards to the EU in any case (again where they even exist).

 

[skybluetony176]

The EU laws on employment are for the purpose of the functioning of the single market. Yes they offer a minimum standard but what you fail to acknowledge is that those standards are often inferior to those new legislated in the UK where they are even legislated for, the EU employment laws don't even cover the same breadth of issues as the UK laws. For somebody who is such an EU advocate surely you should know a bit more about it!?

Now I trust the Tories less than anybody (unlike you I haven't voted for them or their extremist wing UKIP) but they are really not so stupid as to slash employment rights to a level lower than the minimum EU standards. The Trade and Cooperation agreement between UK and EU I believe expects that the UK will adopt at least comparable standards to the EU in any case (again where they even exist).

Once again your faith in the Tory party flabbergasts me. You seemed to have learned nothing from the last year let alone the last 12. You’re so entrenched in your ideology you’ve had to result to defending the Tories intellect.

 

[shmmeee]

You’re wasting your breath mate. People ignore the fact that there’s a massive shortage of staff in many western countries due to post pandemic illness and people choosing to leave the workforce…oh, and the fact that we still had 500k-600k net migration this year.

We should be focussing on training and retraining the people we have, getting pay right and encouraging business investment* rather than continue the Ponzi scheme of ploughing more and more cheap labour into the country whatever their skills which is what happened with freedom of movement. Since the financial crisis productivity has been on its arse, yet our population has grown by at least 6% in a decade excluding illegal migrants….that’s 3.5m+ more people who all need public services, housing etc during a period post austerity when government expenditure was squeezed. How is this never mentioned in mainstream media ?! Too easy to shout brexit at everything and anything. It’s crazy


ps didn’t we have a separate thread for this stuff ? I prefer to keep this one for the who’s the most leftie battles

*as well as plugging immediate skills gaps with relaxed visa requirements in specific areas like social care

Brexit has made those issues worse though and that’s the point. Especially illegal immigration which seems to have shot up now we don’t have any deals for return or processing. The solutions to those are tighter rules on immigration and ID cards really.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Brexit has made those issues worse though and that’s the point. Especially illegal immigration which seems to have shot up now we don’t have any deals for return or processing. The solutions to those are tighter rules on immigration and ID cards really.

I don’t doubt that some of the the issues have been exacerbated by Brexit. My point was more that people are talking like it’s the root cause of the problems, when it’s not. It a majority of cases it’s relatively minor in the grand scheme of things (compared to Covid reproc

That’s not to say the government don’t need to sort their shit out, marginalise the ERG idiots and forge a closer relationship with Europe for both sides sakes.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Got any links to studies about a shortage of staff across the west?
Adding cheap labour to the workforce also happened pre freedom of movement too, BTW.

I’ve been hearing/reading about it for months, USAs probably one of the worst. This is from a quick google search

Germany Faces $85 Billion Hit as Labor Shortages Intensify

As Germany grapples with an energy crisis threatening its future as an industrial leader, an acute shortage of workers is compounding problems for manufacturers already struggling to stay competitive.

www.bloomberg.com

German Labor Shortages Menace Half of Companies Across Economy

A half of all German companies are struggling to find skilled workers, threatening to undermine production and inflict more permanent damage on Europe’s largest economy.

www.bloomberg.com

Spanish hotels face staff crisis in struggle to fill 200,000 jobs before summer

The holiday season is looking like it may be a little turbulent this year, with bosses in Spanish tourism resorts hiring staff with no experience, no CVs and very little training

www.mirror.co.uk

Covid caused huge shortages in US labor market, study shows | US news | The Guardian

At least 500,000 people have permanently disappeared from the workforce, analysis says

amp.theguardian.com

Truck Driver Shortage in Europe | DHL Freight

Road freight transport is suffering from a shortage of truck drivers. What are possible solutions and what does DHL Freight offer its carriers?

dhl-freight-connections.com

Hospitality has been impacted in particular, not just because of Brexit, but because workers have been treated poorly for years and covid meant many found alternative employment.

Our workforce has apparently shrunk by 600k post covid.

Edit - if the government pulled their head out their arses, they could demonstrate a flexible migration system outside the EU could be beneficial, however, as I’ve mentioned before you have people on the right of the party not accepting that some migration is always going to be needed

Ps incase people haven’t read, there’s also been health worker strikes in France and Germany, probably other countries as well. Due to extra pressure, wanting more wages etc etc. Most of the issues we face are replicated elsewhere although you wouldn’t realise it from a lot of the media

 

[clint van damme]

I don’t doubt that some of the the issues have been exacerbated by Brexit. My point was more that people are talking like it’s the root cause of the problems, when it’s not. It a majority of cases it’s relatively minor in the grand scheme of things (compared to Covid reproc

That’s not to say the government don’t need to sort their shit out, marginalise the ERG idiots and forge a closer relationship with Europe for both sides sakes.

We're the only G7 country whose economy hasn't returned to pre pandemic levels so there has to be something other than covid responsible.

 

[clint van damme]

I’ve been hearing/reading about it for months, USAs probably one of the worst. This is from a quick google search

Germany Faces $85 Billion Hit as Labor Shortages Intensify

As Germany grapples with an energy crisis threatening its future as an industrial leader, an acute shortage of workers is compounding problems for manufacturers already struggling to stay competitive.

www.bloomberg.com

German Labor Shortages Menace Half of Companies Across Economy

A half of all German companies are struggling to find skilled workers, threatening to undermine production and inflict more permanent damage on Europe’s largest economy.

www.bloomberg.com

Spanish hotels face staff crisis in struggle to fill 200,000 jobs before summer

The holiday season is looking like it may be a little turbulent this year, with bosses in Spanish tourism resorts hiring staff with no experience, no CVs and very little training

www.mirror.co.uk

Covid caused huge shortages in US labor market, study shows | US news | The Guardian

At least 500,000 people have permanently disappeared from the workforce, analysis says

amp.theguardian.com

Truck Driver Shortage in Europe | DHL Freight

Road freight transport is suffering from a shortage of truck drivers. What are possible solutions and what does DHL Freight offer its carriers?

dhl-freight-connections.com

Hospitality has been impacted in particular, not just because of Brexit, but because workers have been treated poorly for years and covid meant many found alternative employment.

Our workforce has apparently shrunk by 600k post covid.

Edit - if the government pulled their head out their arses, they could demonstrate a flexible migration system outside the EU could be beneficial, however, as I’ve mentioned before you have people on the right of the party not accepting that some migration is always going to be needed

Ps incase people haven’t read, there’s also been health worker strikes in France and Germany, probably other countries as well. Due to extra pressure, wanting more wages etc etc. Most of the issues we face are replicated elsewhere although you wouldn’t realise it from a lot of the media

We discussed the HGV driver shortage on here when it happened on here.
Don't think anyone blamed it solely on Brexit, but Brexit did remove several thousand drivers from the labour market which only exasperated the problem.

 

[Sick Boy]

I’ve been hearing/reading about it for months, USAs probably one of the worst. This is from a quick google search

Germany Faces $85 Billion Hit as Labor Shortages Intensify

As Germany grapples with an energy crisis threatening its future as an industrial leader, an acute shortage of workers is compounding problems for manufacturers already struggling to stay competitive.

www.bloomberg.com

German Labor Shortages Menace Half of Companies Across Economy

A half of all German companies are struggling to find skilled workers, threatening to undermine production and inflict more permanent damage on Europe’s largest economy.

www.bloomberg.com

Spanish hotels face staff crisis in struggle to fill 200,000 jobs before summer

The holiday season is looking like it may be a little turbulent this year, with bosses in Spanish tourism resorts hiring staff with no experience, no CVs and very little training

www.mirror.co.uk

Covid caused huge shortages in US labor market, study shows | US news | The Guardian

At least 500,000 people have permanently disappeared from the workforce, analysis says

amp.theguardian.com

Truck Driver Shortage in Europe | DHL Freight

Road freight transport is suffering from a shortage of truck drivers. What are possible solutions and what does DHL Freight offer its carriers?

dhl-freight-connections.com

Hospitality has been impacted in particular, not just because of Brexit, but because workers have been treated poorly for years and covid meant many found alternative employment.

Our workforce has apparently shrunk by 600k post covid.

Edit - if the government pulled their head out their arses, they could demonstrate a flexible migration system outside the EU could be beneficial, however, as I’ve mentioned before you have people on the right of the party not accepting that some migration is always going to be needed

Ps incase people haven’t read, there’s also been health worker strikes in France and Germany, probably other countries as well. Due to extra pressure, wanting more wages etc etc. Most of the issues we face are replicated elsewhere although you wouldn’t realise it from a lot of the media

The first two articles are for skilled jobs shortages - the UK seems to have issues with both skilled and no skilled shortages from what I’ve seen.

Agree with you about the migration system - they’ve also built up an ideology that is pigheaded as it tries to avoid hiring from the EU/taking advantage of it.

 

[CCFCSteve]

We discussed the HGV driver shortage on here when it happened on here.
Don't think anyone blamed it solely on Brexit, but Brexit did remove several thousand drivers from the labour market which only exasperated the problem.

Agreed. Figure was dwarfed by the backlog of tests and licences. I won’t share thoughts on dvla on here…pushing my luck already

 

[Sick Boy]

Agreed. Figure was dwarfed by the backlog of tests and licences. I won’t share thoughts on dvla on here…pushing my luck already

The DVLA was dreadful way before Brexit.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The DVLA was dreadful way before Brexit.

Yeah, massive backlog during pandemic though (unions )



..couldn’t resist

 

[CCFCSteve]

Reassuring

 

[shmmeee]

Reassuring View attachment 27912

What’s this? Next leader? Brexit has really done a number on the natural party of government.

 

[CCFCSteve]

What’s this? Next leader? Brexit has really done a number on the natural party of government.

Sorry, thought it said. Just party favourites

Still haven’t forgiven Judas Sunak

 

[fernandopartridge]

Once again your faith in the Tory party flabbergasts me. You seemed to have learned nothing from the last year let alone the last 12. You’re so entrenched in your ideology you’ve had to result to defending the Tories intellect.

Engage the points made for a change eh? I've just pointed out a few facts none of which you dispute. You seem to think it'll be a permanent Tory government despite the fact the opposition is currently in a double digit lead in the polls.

 

[skybluetony176]

Engage the points made for a change eh? I've just pointed out a few facts none of which you dispute. You seem to think it'll be a permanent Tory government despite the fact the opposition is currently in a double digit lead in the polls.

You seem to think that the Tories will never get back in again. Hence I said a yo yo of workers rights. The government are looking to remove Direct Effect. This is what protects amongst other things equal pay. This was previously protected under Article 157 as EU members. I quote “EU countries must eliminate discrimination on grounds of sex with regard to all aspects and conditions of remuneration for the same work or for work of equal value”. So when your wife, sister or daughter suddenly find their wages falling behind their male co workers don’t forget that they have you to thank for it. Well done.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You seem to think that the Tories will never get back in again. Hence I said a yo yo of workers rights. The government are looking to remove Direct Effect. This is what protects amongst other things equal pay. This was previously protected under Article 157 as EU members. I quote “EU countries must eliminate discrimination on grounds of sex with regard to all aspects and conditions of remuneration for the same work or for work of equal value”. So when your wife, sister or daughter suddenly find their wages falling behind their male co workers don’t forget that they have you to thank for it. Well done.

Grow up you utter child. The Equality Act 2010 provides legal recourse in the UK for an equal pay claim. I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore as you clearly do not understand the relationship between UK law and EU law.

 

[skybluetony176]

Grow up you utter child. The Equality Act 2010 provides legal recourse in the UK for an equal pay claim. I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore as you clearly do not understand the relationship between UK law and EU law.

The equality act of 2010 was brought in to replicate an EU directive into UK law. That is the relationship between UK law and EU. Or should I say was. You voted to do away with that.