Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)

chiefdave · Mar 7, 2023

There's an article on the BBC site on how many people have been able to enter the country legally. The numbers are shocking

UK Resettlement Scheme - 1,125 (target was 5,000 a year)
Community Sponsorship Scheme - 144
Refugee Family Reunion - 6,134
Mandate Resettlement Scheme - 2

Can't see this getting past the courts, how do illegally enter as an asylum seeker, all the routes have been closed off. Was it Braverman who was asked in a select committee and had no answer

Just don't see how they write a law that's compliant with international law

skybluetony176 · Mar 7, 2023

chiefdave said:
There's an article on the BBC site on how many people have been able to enter the country legally. The numbers are shocking

UK Resettlement Scheme - 1,125 (target was 5,000 a year)
Community Sponsorship Scheme - 144
Refugee Family Reunion - 6,134
Mandate Resettlement Scheme - 2

Can't see this getting past the courts, how do illegally enter as an asylum seeker, all the routes have been closed off. Was it Braverman who was asked in a select committee and had no answer

Just don't see how they write a law that's compliant with international law

Second biggest group of people arriving by boats are from Afghanistan who we’re supposed to have a settlement scheme for, about 5000 IIRC arrived by small boats last year at the hands of people smugglers. I think it was suggested in parliament last week that less than a dozen Afghans have been resettled by the scheme. No wonder they’re looking to the smugglers for help.

David O'Day · Mar 7, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
Second biggest group of people arriving by boats are from Afghanistan who we’re supposed to have a settlement scheme for, about 5000 IIRC arrived by small boats last year at the hands of people smugglers. I think it was suggested in parliament last week that less than a dozen Afghans have been resettled by the scheme. No wonder they’re looking to the smugglers for help.

There's currently only 2 safe routes open From Ukraine and from Hong Kong.

We have a resettlement scheme for Afghanistan but they are unable to get here.

Also where do we send the people to? Rwanda can only take a few hundred, France won't take anyone back as we have left the non EU migrant agreement and we can't send them back to unsafe countries?

Simply unworkable.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Mar 7, 2023

Northants Sky Blue said:
They do not want to fix this problem.

They need a bogeyman to position themselves against.

They're banking that fear alone wins elections so we've got another 18 months of this rubbish

Exactly. They want to look like they're being tough on immigration and so peddle the narrative that it's their fault. But the last thing they want to do is actually fix the problem, because if they did they'd lose a big part of why certain people vote for them

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Unsurprisingly, I'll throw an alternative view in here. I think most people on this thread wouldn't care if one asylum seeker came to the UK this year, but also wouldn't be bothered if the number was one million.

It can be argued that certain methods being proposed are inhumane, and you might be right. It is also likely the case that this is only being done as a stunt to make it look like they're taking it seriously. An election push from the tories if you like.

The reality is that that UK has seen so much immigration over the last few decades, that I personally think a lot of people have lost patience with it, and certainly any sympathy. We are a push over of a country and a majority of people have had enough of it. In this large wave of immigration, you have seen society change, and whilst the notion that all immigrants are criminals and rapists is nonsense, we've still had one too many that are. The whole Merkel legacy that went on in the course of the last ten years has only made that worse as well, and takes things away from those who will genuinely contribute positively to society. I know people don't like to talk about it, definitely on this thread too, but if you want to have an adult conversation about immigration then it needs to be an open talking point.

I would welcome proper asylum centers, and claims dealt with seriously. If people are in danger for genuine reasons then we should be supporting them. The one thing that seems to slip however, is that a lot of the people making these journeys are not in complete peril. As I said previously, people have lost their sympathy, and this is another reason why.

I don't think the majority of UK citizens are heartless, I think they've just had enough of being taken for idiots. Perhaps (as I mentioned) this new policy is another iteration of that, but until we see some proper controls of our borders taking place (however that should look), I don't think you'll see a change of attitude towards Johnny foreniger.

chiefdave · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Unsurprisingly, I'll throw an alternative view in here. I think most people on this thread wouldn't care if one asylum seeker came to the UK this year, but also wouldn't be bothered if the number was one million

I think a lot of people would be concerned if we were getting 1m asylum applications annually. the biggest concern would be what on earth had happened to cause such a huge increase

the latest government figures are 63,089 applications for the year ending June 2022, a 1,500% increase would certainly be cause for concern

fernandopartridge · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Unsurprisingly, I'll throw an alternative view in here. I think most people on this thread wouldn't care if one asylum seeker came to the UK this year, but also wouldn't be bothered if the number was one million.

It can be argued that certain methods being proposed are inhumane, and you might be right. It is also likely the case that this is only being done as a stunt to make it look like they're taking it seriously. An election push from the tories if you like.

The reality is that that UK has seen so much immigration over the last few decades, that I personally think a lot of people have lost patience with it, and certainly any sympathy. We are a push over of a country and a majority of people have had enough of it. In this large wave of immigration, you have seen society change, and whilst the notion that all immigrants are criminals and rapists is nonsense, we've still had one too many that are. The whole Merkel legacy that went on in the course of the last ten years has only made that worse as well, and takes things away from those who will genuinely contribute positively to society. I know people don't like to talk about it, definitely on this thread too, but if you want to have an adult conversation about immigration then it needs to be an open talking point.

I would welcome proper asylum centers, and claims dealt with seriously. If people are in danger for genuine reasons then we should be supporting them. The one thing that seems to slip however, is that a lot of the people making these journeys are not in complete peril. As I said previously, people have lost their sympathy, and this is another reason why.

I don't think the majority of UK citizens are heartless, I think they've just had enough of being taken for idiots. Perhaps (as I mentioned) this new policy is another iteration of that, but until we see some proper controls of our borders taking place (however that should look), I don't think you'll see a change of attitude towards Johnny foreniger.

You still living in a different country to the one you were born in?

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Unsurprisingly, I'll throw an alternative view in here. I think most people on this thread wouldn't care if one asylum seeker came to the UK this year, but also wouldn't be bothered if the number was one million.

It can be argued that certain methods being proposed are inhumane, and you might be right. It is also likely the case that this is only being done as a stunt to make it look like they're taking it seriously. An election push from the tories if you like.

The reality is that that UK has seen so much immigration over the last few decades, that I personally think a lot of people have lost patience with it, and certainly any sympathy. We are a push over of a country and a majority of people have had enough of it. In this large wave of immigration, you have seen society change, and whilst the notion that all immigrants are criminals and rapists is nonsense, we've still had one too many that are. The whole Merkel legacy that went on in the course of the last ten years has only made that worse as well, and takes things away from those who will genuinely contribute positively to society. I know people don't like to talk about it, definitely on this thread too, but if you want to have an adult conversation about immigration then it needs to be an open talking point.

I would welcome proper asylum centers, and claims dealt with seriously. If people are in danger for genuine reasons then we should be supporting them. The one thing that seems to slip however, is that a lot of the people making these journeys are not in complete peril. As I said previously, people have lost their sympathy, and this is another reason why.

I don't think the majority of UK citizens are heartless, I think they've just had enough of being taken for idiots. Perhaps (as I mentioned) this new policy is another iteration of that, but until we see some proper controls of our borders taking place (however that should look), I don't think you'll see a change of attitude towards Johnny foreniger.

The irony of you writing this as an immigrant into someone else’s country is pretty staggering

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 8, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
Is it even a problem in the grand scheme of things?

The UK offered protection, in the form of refugee status, humanitarian protection, alternative forms of leave (such as discretionary leave) and resettlement, to 17,378 people (including dependants) in the year ending September 2022.

For context: There were 672,614 live births in GB (exc NI as I can't be bothered to find them!) in 2021, compared to 2020's 660,745.

In 2021, there were 649,921 deaths registered in GB, compared to 2020's 670,337 deaths.

The numbers are minute.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 8, 2023

We have to remember that this is a policy that directly bans the most helpless in the world - as if they haven't suffered enough, this government wants to turn them into criminals for fleeing persecution! It would be an absolute nonsense to conflate this with immigration as a whole... but that's what they want people to do.

You just can't be an illegal asylum seeker!

Skybluefaz · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Unsurprisingly, I'll throw an alternative view in here. I think most people on this thread wouldn't care if one asylum seeker came to the UK this year, but also wouldn't be bothered if the number was one million.

It can be argued that certain methods being proposed are inhumane, and you might be right. It is also likely the case that this is only being done as a stunt to make it look like they're taking it seriously. An election push from the tories if you like.

The reality is that that UK has seen so much immigration over the last few decades, that I personally think a lot of people have lost patience with it, and certainly any sympathy. We are a push over of a country and a majority of people have had enough of it. In this large wave of immigration, you have seen society change, and whilst the notion that all immigrants are criminals and rapists is nonsense, we've still had one too many that are. The whole Merkel legacy that went on in the course of the last ten years has only made that worse as well, and takes things away from those who will genuinely contribute positively to society. I know people don't like to talk about it, definitely on this thread too, but if you want to have an adult conversation about immigration then it needs to be an open talking point.

I would welcome proper asylum centers, and claims dealt with seriously. If people are in danger for genuine reasons then we should be supporting them. The one thing that seems to slip however, is that a lot of the people making these journeys are not in complete peril. As I said previously, people have lost their sympathy, and this is another reason why.

I don't think the majority of UK citizens are heartless, I think they've just had enough of being taken for idiots. Perhaps (as I mentioned) this new policy is another iteration of that, but until we see some proper controls of our borders taking place (however that should look), I don't think you'll see a change of attitude towards Johnny foreniger.

You are in the minority.

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2023

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

chiefdave said:
I think a lot of people would be concerned if we were getting 1m asylum applications annually. the biggest concern would be what on earth had happened to cause such a huge increase

the latest government figures are 63,089 applications for the year ending June 2022, a 1,500% increase would certainly be cause for concern

Worth noting that the numbers are skewed at the moment by the Hong Kong scheme (over 160k now since the scheme was launched less than 3 years ago). Once the numbers settle down from Hong Kong or the scheme comes to an end the number of people claiming asylum in the UK will fall.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 8, 2023

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

Just reading up on the Hong Kong scheme and it asks some questions of Bravermans claims in parliament yesterday. According to government figures 2.9M people and their families in Hong Kong qualify for resettlement in the UK, 4.5M in total. Or about a twentieth of the people she claimed yesterday were currently entitled to refugee status in the UK and would take it if we let them. Of those 4.5 million entitled to come to the UK from Hong Kong since 2021 160k have. I understood that she was scaremongering but bloody hell I underestimated how stupid she thinks the electorate is.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 8, 2023

CCFCSteve said:
In theory I agree with pretty much everything you say and certainly appreciate how lucky we are in this country (many don’t) but I think in reality it’s not so straightforward. There will continue to be increasing numbers fleeing countries for a variety of reasons and however much I would want to help everyone, I just don’t think it will be possible

I don’t think the governments proposals are the answer as I indicated earlier and certainly have no time for Bravermann but I also don’t see many/any other workable solutions being proposed either

If there are 100000000 displaced around the world and 50000 came here that’s 0.0005% of those displaced people. If you add the 500000 claimed from Ukraine, Hong Kong and Syria and Afghanistan then it’s 0.0055% of those displaced people.

Where I agree with the government is that channel crossings on dinghy’s are a safety crisis and need to be stopped. Banning them is likely to be as effective as banning alcohol or drugs. It’s supply and demand

Again where I agree that the bill is not a silver bullet there are many other actions required to see meaningful change.
Friend works with asylum claims and the lack of forward planning and investment and lack of compassion and competence has occurred over the last 15 years and the delays in the system have caused much of the issues around capacity and unlawful detention

Its never been a surprise to me that migrants look to a successful country where the language spoken is English what is a surprise is that we haven’t managed to break the back of the people smugglers but again investment in the police has not been great since 2010 and so I’m not surprised there’s been no progress on that either

Big mess but we could be Poland or Lebanon and in real trouble trying to support those coming for our aid

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 8, 2023

chiefdave said:
There's an article on the BBC site on how many people have been able to enter the country legally. The numbers are shocking

UK Resettlement Scheme - 1,125 (target was 5,000 a year)
Community Sponsorship Scheme - 144
Refugee Family Reunion - 6,134
Mandate Resettlement Scheme - 2

Can't see this getting past the courts, how do illegally enter as an asylum seeker, all the routes have been closed off. Was it Braverman who was asked in a select committee and had no answer

Just don't see how they write a law that's compliant with international law

And they keep quoting 500000 figure is that mainly from Hong Kong and a complete misinformation

David O'Day · Mar 8, 2023

Deleted member 9744 · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Wonder how much we’ve now paid Rwanda

£140 million so far. And we are preparing to pay similar amounts to other countries like Peru. A monumental waste of money.

Meanwhile we have people in this country who are homeless, and others who can't afford to heat their home or have sufficient food.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

David O'Day said:

If we don’t change the law the entire population of the world will come here. Is that what you want because that’s what will happen.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

And some more context to the 100M remark she made yesterday and the claim that they all want to come here. Spoiler alert, she’s talking shite.

PVA · Mar 8, 2023

Just the UK Prime Minister tweeting that slavery is fine if you're 'an illegal'.

Perfectly normal. Nothing to see here.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 8, 2023

PVA said:
Just the UK Prime Minister tweeting that slavery is fine if you're 'an illegal'.

Perfectly normal. Nothing to see here.

There’s lots of inconsistencies in all our responses isn’t there. Modern slavery is really hard isn’t it.
everyone thinks it’s wrong unless it means they have to pay a proper amount for a car wash and act surprised when teenagers are coerced into the sex industry but don’t mind watching their work so long as they’re 18
Hes just doing the same isn’t he? Although he is the prime minister
It was galling listening to him talk about illegal migration covering pretty much every person claiming asylum spurious or not

Such a mess but so is much of our world

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 8, 2023

Sky Blue Pete said:
There’s lots of inconsistencies in all our responses isn’t there. Modern slavery is really hard isn’t it.
everyone thinks it’s wrong unless it means they have to pay a proper amount for a car wash and act surprised when teenagers are coerced into the sex industry but don’t mind watching their work so long as they’re 18
Hes just doing the same isn’t he? Although he is the prime minister
It was galling listening to him talk about illegal migration covering pretty much every person claiming asylum spurious or not

Such a mess but so is much of our world

Don’t get me wrong it’s far from good enough and we should and must do better and this is not better

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
You still living in a different country to the one you were born in?

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The irony of you writing this as an immigrant into someone else’s country is pretty staggering

Why is it ironic and why does it matter?

I pay taxes and work hard, I certainly put a lot into the economy. I don't commit crime either.

It's a silly response.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Skybluefaz said:
View attachment 28657

You are in the minority.

What have I said that makes me in a minority based on the question in that graph?

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Why is it ironic and why does it matter?

I pay taxes and work hard, I certainly put a lot into the economy. I don't commit crime either.

It's a silly response.

Because most immigrants coming here want to do the same.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Because most immigrants coming here want to do the same.

You didn't respond to any of the points I made, you just went straight in and attacked my position because I work abroad, coming out with empty rhetoric and dramatic lines such as 'it's stagering you would have that opinion', and putting words in my mouth. I guess I'm not allowed to go on holiday either?

Many immigrants do have good intentions (despite you and the left trying to smear everyone that challenges the level of it, or the intentions of some, by making out anyone that holds a different opinion from you comes from something so extreme).

Debate my points properly like an adult, or don't bother at all.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Unsurprisingly, I'll throw an alternative view in here. I think most people on this thread wouldn't care if one asylum seeker came to the UK this year, but also wouldn't be bothered if the number was one million.

It can be argued that certain methods being proposed are inhumane, and you might be right. It is also likely the case that this is only being done as a stunt to make it look like they're taking it seriously. An election push from the tories if you like.

The reality is that that UK has seen so much immigration over the last few decades, that I personally think a lot of people have lost patience with it, and certainly any sympathy. We are a push over of a country and a majority of people have had enough of it. In this large wave of immigration, you have seen society change, and whilst the notion that all immigrants are criminals and rapists is nonsense, we've still had one too many that are. The whole Merkel legacy that went on in the course of the last ten years has only made that worse as well, and takes things away from those who will genuinely contribute positively to society. I know people don't like to talk about it, definitely on this thread too, but if you want to have an adult conversation about immigration then it needs to be an open talking point.

I would welcome proper asylum centers, and claims dealt with seriously. If people are in danger for genuine reasons then we should be supporting them. The one thing that seems to slip however, is that a lot of the people making these journeys are not in complete peril. As I said previously, people have lost their sympathy, and this is another reason why.

I don't think the majority of UK citizens are heartless, I think they've just had enough of being taken for idiots. Perhaps (as I mentioned) this new policy is another iteration of that, but until we see some proper controls of our borders taking place (however that should look), I don't think you'll see a change of attitude towards Johnny foreniger.

You wanted someone to debate your points as an adult so I’ll give it a go.

Firstly your 1 or 1 million comment. You’re picking exaggerated numbers out of thin air to fit a view. If you want an adult conversation exaggeration isn’t the starting point.

Secondly “We’re a pushover”. Compared to who exactly? There’s 193 member states of the UN all signed up to the some standard on Human rights and 53 of those members are signed up to the higher standards of the UN human rights council. Narrow that down to the European stage. 46 countries signed up to common human rights and the ECHR. So who are we a soft touch compared to? South Korea? Iran? Is that the company you want us to keep?

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You didn't respond to any of the points I made, you just went straight in and attacked my position because I work abroad, coming out with empty rhetoric and dramatic lines such as 'it's stagering you would have that opinion', and putting words in my mouth. I guess I'm not allowed to go on holiday either?

Many immigrants do have good intentions (despite you and the left trying to smear everyone that challenges the level of it, or the intentions of some, by making out anyone that holds a different opinion from you comes from something so extreme).

Debate my points properly like an adult, or don't bother at all.

All I see is an economic migrant arguing against economic migration. What if Dutch nationalists decide they’ve had enough of foreigners coming in and changing society or committing crimes?

Astute · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
All I see is an economic migrant arguing against economic migration. What if Dutch nationalists decide they’ve had enough of foreigners coming in and changing society or committing crimes?

They'd have a few spliffs then start to consider what move they might make next.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
All I see is an economic migrant arguing against economic migration. What if Dutch nationalists decide they’ve had enough of foreigners coming in and changing society or committing crimes?

No, all you see is someone coming out with points you can't argue against, so you go into child mode.

You haven't read what I have written, or more likely, deliberately have ignored it and reshaped it to fit your only one argument. Your question at the end just reemphasises the level of straw clutching. You might have something to start with if I had paddled across the North Sea, but I didn't.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
No, all you see is someone coming out with points you can't argue against, so you go into child mode.

You haven't read what I have written, or more likely, deliberately have ignored it and reshaped it to fit your only one argument. Your question at the end just reemphasises the level of straw clutching. You might have something to start with if I had paddled across the North Sea, but I didn't.

You do understand that the vast majority of real illegal immigrants arrived in the UK legally on a visa and then overstay? I think even with the rise in people crossing by boat visa overstay still counts for over 90% of illegal immigrants. That’s before you factor in that the majority of people arriving by boats successfully claim asylum.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
You wanted someone to debate your points as an adult so I’ll give it a go.

Firstly your 1 or 1 million comment. You’re picking exaggerated numbers out of thin air to fit a view. If you want an adult conversation exaggeration isn’t the starting point.

Secondly “We’re a pushover”. Compared to who exactly? There’s 193 member states of the UN all signed up to the some standard on Human rights and 53 of those members are signed up to the higher standards of the UN human rights council. Narrow that down to the European stage. 46 countries signed up to common human rights and the ECHR. So who are we a soft touch compared to? South Korea? Iran? Is that the company you want us to keep?

I picked the 1 or 1 million to emphasise that most people on this (rather out of touch section of the internet), wouldn't care either way on the levels of immigration, legal or illegal. It doesn't matter to you. That isn't wrong, is it?

Secondly, the British public feel like we are a pushover when it comes to immigration. You can disagree with them if you want, and you might have a point depending on which angle you want to come from, but as I am saying to you - the overall level of compassion for genuine refugees is lower than it should be. I have given you my thoughts on the reasons for this. If you want the public to take your narrative, then something needs to change, whatever that might be. If you won't listen to the other side of the debate however, nothing will ever change.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
You do understand that the vast majority of real illegal immigrants arrived in the UK legally on a visa and then overstay? I think even with the rise in people crossing by boat visa overstay still counts for over 90% of illegal immigrants. That’s before you factor in that the majority of people arriving by boats successfully claim asylum.

You mean, we are a pushover when it comes to losing people overstaying their visas? Well done Tony, you might be starting to see the point I'm making after all.

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