Do you want to discuss boring politics? (46 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I picked the 1 or 1 million to emphasise that most people on this (rather out of touch section of the internet), wouldn't care either way on the levels of immigration, legal or illegal. It doesn't matter to you. That isn't wrong, is it?

Secondly, the British public feel like we are a pushover when it comes to immigration. You can disagree with them if you want, and you might have a point depending on which angle you want to come from, but as I am saying to you - the overall level of compassion for genuine refugees is lower than it should be. I have given you my thoughts on the reasons for this. If you want the public to take your narrative, then something needs to change, whatever that might be. If you won't listen to the other side of the debate however, nothing will ever change.

Yes that is wrong.

Where’s your evidence that the majority of British people think we’re a pushover? Why do they think we’re a pushover? Is it based on baseless rhetoric from the government? It certainly based on facts like we’re signed up to the same standards as almost a quarter of all sovereign states in the world. We take in considerably less than our European neighbours etc etc. You’re accusing me of not listening to the other side of the argument. I’m listening to the facts not the rhetoric. Rhetoric is not a side to the argument, it’s empty, devoid of truths and devoid of facts. The fact is in any poll you care to mention people arriving by boats is not the top of what people are concerned about. The so called silent majority are a noisy minority.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 8, 2023

Again, asylum seekers totally different to general immigration. Not fair to throw the minority of oppressed and abused into the same pot.

Yet government's proposed policy is aimed at demonising that minority. It's pretty disgraceful really.

skybluetony176 · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You mean, we are a pushover when it comes to losing people overstaying their visas? Well done Tony, you might be starting to see the point I'm making after all.

We’re no worse than any other country in that respect.

Interesting though that one of the countries who citizens make up one of the largest contingent of visa overstayers in the UK also happens to be one of the country’s we’re desperate to get a trade agreement with so the government can say look a Brexit bonus. They want more visas for people to travel to the UK and less conditions to obtain a visa. So people who voted to take back control are actually facilitating a potential increase in the real issue. Visa overstay. Ironic isn’t it?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Grendel said:
Probably should be on the COVID thread but I thought you might be posting this

The COVID thread went dead.

I know it is a sore subject for some, and I try not to go on about it too much on here as there were some that were really genuinely badly affected by it. These messages from Hancock are horrendous though, and his actions went a fair way in making some of the people feel as anxious as they did, that's at the very least. The silence on here does say a lot though, I think. There were some extremely nasty comments on that thread, and a lot of 'conspiracy theory accusations' being thrown around to genuine points being raised. Not to mention some 'taking the moral high ground' who wanted to segregate society. As time has gone on, more and more of it has come true - hence why there is this 'covid amnesty' rhetoric floating around. I'm not surprised no one wants to discuss it though, on that thread, or on here. There's a huge amount of shame at how people conducted themselves towards others. It will go down in history alongside the pandemic itself.

I doubt it will be the end of it either.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
We’re no worse than any other country in that respect.

Interesting though that one of the countries who citizens make up one of the largest contingent of visa overstayers in the UK also happens to be one of the country’s we’re desperate to get a trade agreement with so the government can say look a Brexit bonus. They want more visas for people to travel to the UK and less conditions to obtain a visa. So people who voted to take back control are actually facilitating a potential increase in the real issue. Visa overstay. Ironic isn’t it?

Maybe, but I'm not here arguing about brexit, or about the positive or negative effects of it. I'm also not saying people care about it more than they do being able to put food on the table. Again, it's just a jenga tower of random soundbites to detract from the actual subject, because unfortunately Tony, most people don't have any fair counter arguments. I do however, appreciate that you are trying to engage on this.

More people in the UK feel that we need less immigration than more of it - that's a fact. I have cited a study below by Oxford University (a pretty gold standard and reputable source of research, and also the first that I found) which was taken before we even had the surge in boat arrivals, and general immigration as well.

Regarding those in the bottom two or three sections: Does that mean all those people want no immigration? No. Does that mean all those people hate immigrants? No. Does that mean all those people think all immigrants are criminals? No. It just means that people think we have too much immigration, and are probably too soft on who we let into, and stay in, the UK. As I said, this contributes to an impatient and less caring attitude towards genuine refugees.

shmmeee · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
All I see is an economic migrant arguing against economic migration. What if Dutch nationalists decide they’ve had enough of foreigners coming in and changing society or committing crimes?

I know a few who are sick of going to Amsterdam and meeting immigrants who don’t even speak Dutch because everyone speaks English. Say that Amsterdam isn’t the Netherlands now.

David O'Day · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Maybe, but I'm not here arguing about brexit, or about the positive or negative effects of it. I'm also not saying people care about it more than they do being able to put food on the table. Again, it's just a jenga tower of random soundbites to detract from the actual subject, because unfortunately Tony, most people don't have any fair counter arguments. I do however, appreciate that you are trying to engage on this.

More people in the UK feel that we need less immigration than more of it - that's a fact. I have cited a study below by Oxford University (a pretty gold standard and reputable source of research, and also the first that I found) which was taken before we even had the surge in boat arrivals, and general immigration as well.

View attachment 28660

Regarding those in the bottom two or three sections: Does that mean all those people want no immigration? No. Does that mean all those people hate immigrants? No. Does that mean all those people think all immigrants are criminals? No. It just means that people think we have too much immigration, and are probably too soft on who we let into, and stay in, the UK. As I said, this contributes to an impatient and less caring attitude towards genuine refugees.

bottom 2 sections fella, 3rd section is clearly remain the same so they don't think there's too much immigration

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

David O'Day said:
bottom 2 sections fella, 3rd section is clearly remain the same so they don't think there's too much immigration

Are the bottom two sections larger than the top two sections, genius?

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Maybe, but I'm not here arguing about brexit, or about the positive or negative effects of it. I'm also not saying people care about it more than they do being able to put food on the table. Again, it's just a jenga tower of random soundbites to detract from the actual subject, because unfortunately Tony, most people don't have any fair counter arguments. I do however, appreciate that you are trying to engage on this.

More people in the UK feel that we need less immigration than more of it - that's a fact. I have cited a study below by Oxford University (a pretty gold standard and reputable source of research, and also the first that I found) which was taken before we even had the surge in boat arrivals, and general immigration as well.

View attachment 28660

Regarding those in the bottom two or three sections: Does that mean all those people want no immigration? No. Does that mean all those people hate immigrants? No. Does that mean all those people think all immigrants are criminals? No. It just means that people think we have too much immigration, and are probably too soft on who we let into, and stay in, the UK. As I said, this contributes to an impatient and less caring attitude towards genuine refugees.

Believes in Oxford University when it suits him, doesn’t when it produces a vaccine in record time

shmmeee · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Are the bottom two sections larger than the top two sections, genius?

“Remain the same” isn’t a neutral position though. We currently have record immigration so they have to be counted as more positive than not.

Generally speaking all polling shows were one of the most tolerant nations when it comes to immigration and most people want immigrants in for shortage areas and genuine asylum claims. Immigration as a topic has dropped off voter concerns post Brexit really. Small boats aside.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Believes in Oxford University when it suits him, doesn’t when it produces a vaccine in record time

Where have I said I don't believe in the vaccine?

You are absolutely all over the place today. Log off and stop embarrassing yourself.

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2023

shmmeee said:
I know a few who are sick of going to Amsterdam and meeting immigrants who don’t even speak Dutch because everyone speaks English. Say that Amsterdam isn’t the Netherlands now.

I first went over when I was 18 and actually learnt a few Dutch phrases before going - needless to say they were pretty shocked.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

shmmeee said:
“Remain the same” isn’t a neutral position though. We currently have record immigration so they have to be counted as more positive than not.

Generally speaking all polling shows were one of the most tolerant nations when it comes to immigration and most people want immigrants in for shortage areas and genuine asylum claims. Immigration as a topic has dropped off voter concerns post Brexit really. Small boats aside.

You can't just say people in the middle want more immigration too, that's just bending facts. I could as easily say it goes the other way based on lower numbers in the era of that study, which as I said, was from 2019.

Most in this thread would agree there is a lack of compassion for genuine refugees in this country, I'm telling you the reasons for this. Either take that on board, or don't, but people still aren't getting it. When was the last time anyone in this thread was on the winning side of any democratic vote? A lot of people feel there is too much immigration in this country, ignore them, and you lose votes. Also, ignore them, and there is less compassion towards people that are in real need and danger.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I picked the 1 or 1 million to emphasise that most people on this (rather out of touch section of the internet), wouldn't care either way on the levels of immigration, legal or illegal. It doesn't matter to you. That isn't wrong, is it?

Secondly, the British public feel like we are a pushover when it comes to immigration. You can disagree with them if you want, and you might have a point depending on which angle you want to come from, but as I am saying to you - the overall level of compassion for genuine refugees is lower than it should be. I have given you my thoughts on the reasons for this. If you want the public to take your narrative, then something needs to change, whatever that might be. If you won't listen to the other side of the debate however, nothing will ever change.

And the reason there is this impression of us being a pushover is because of c***s like Braverman peddling it in the media to push the buttons of their (hard)core supporters, when the reality shows we're not. If anything we're really harsh on migration, and asylum in particular.

Many of us accept that there are some problems that come with immigration. it puts a bit of a strain on housing and services, and there are cultural and language difficulties that arise that can be problematic. In small cases it does bring with it a problem with crime. Those arguments are being acknowledged.

But when it comes to the counter argument of saying how the actual evidence doesn't support their perception of the levels of immigration and showing the benefits of it many of those on the right dismiss those arguments.

I feel quite sure Labour's immigration policy is further right of where Starmer truly believes it should be according to actual evidence because he's acknowledging them, more so than they probably deserve to be. Some would say he's pandering to them to a certain degree.

If anyone's being childish and not listening to the other side of the debate it's more those on the right and unless people accept their perception of the issue as fact they're being harshly treated and ignored.

David O'Day · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Are the bottom two sections larger than the top two sections, genius?

you included the remains the same who like the top 2 sections do not think there is too much

graphs not a strong point for you then

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Sick Boy said:
I first went over when I was 18 and actually learnt a few Dutch phrases before going - needless to say they were pretty shocked.

Unless you get to a decent level they will almost always speak back to you in English as well. It can make it harder to learn a language, but for me at least I had a similar experience living in Sweden, and it made me very determined to learn it. I'm more or less fluent now, because unless I spoke to a good level, with a reasonable accent, they would just come back in English.

In Amsterdam, you will hear English in the streets, bars, and restaurants at least 50% of the time. A lot of people do feel that it is not Dutch there, and I would agree with them too.

David O'Day · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You can't just say people in the middle want more immigration too, that's just bending facts. I could as easily say it goes the other way based on lower numbers in the era of that study, which as I said, was from 2019.

Most in this thread would agree there is a lack of compassion for genuine refugees in this country, I'm telling you the reasons for this. Either take that on board, or don't, but people still aren't getting it. When was the last time anyone in this thread was on the winning side of any democratic vote? A lot of people feel there is too much immigration in this country, ignore them, and you lose votes. Also, ignore them, and there is less compassion towards people that are in real need and danger.

it's bending facts to say they want less immigration as well and that didn't stop you doing just that

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

David O'Day said:
you included the remains the same who like the top 2 sections do not think there is too much

graphs not a strong point for you then

Fuck me.

English and reading aren't strong points for you either ironically.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Are the bottom two sections larger than the top two sections, genius?

Or you could say that over half of the population do not want immigration to be reduced.

shmmeee · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You can't just say people in the middle want more immigration too, that's just bending facts. I could as easily say it goes the other way based on lower numbers in the era of that study, which as I said, was from 2019.

Most in this thread would agree there is a lack of compassion for genuine refugees in this country, I'm telling you the reasons for this. Either take that on board, or don't, but people still aren't getting it. When was the last time anyone in this thread was on the winning side of any democratic vote? A lot of people feel there is too much immigration in this country, ignore them, and you lose votes. Also, ignore them, and there is less compassion towards people that are in real need and danger.

You can’t say they want more, but no one is. They want it to remain the same. Which means they don’t want less. Concerns about immigration are nothing like what they were 5-10 years ago. Rightly or wrongly most people seem to have decided Brexit sorted that.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Or you could say that over half of the population do not want immigration to be reduced.

Again, this thread has a real habit of not reading things properly - which is almost certainly deliberate.

You are using the middle section to join your side (which is that you essentially want as much immigration as possible), when in reality they are essentially a 'don't mind' answer. You could put them either way.

I said: More people in the UK want less immigration than to increase it. That's fact. There are more people in that survey wanting to decrease immigration than increase it.

You can listen to those people, or you can ignore them. But this is why you keep losing election after election.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 8, 2023

shmmeee said:
You can’t say they want more, but no one is. They want it to remain the same. Which means they don’t want less. Concerns about immigration are nothing like what they were 5-10 years ago. Rightly or wrongly most people seem to have decided Brexit sorted that.

I'm not sure it is less of a concern that it was 5 or 10 years ago, it might be that other things have gotten in the way. The fact remains however, more people want less immigration than more - that graph literally proves it. As I said - the middle ground answer is essentially 'don't mind' - I was highlighting how stupid it would be for me to say they want less, the same way it would be for you and others to say they want more.

Compare the top two and the bottom two, that's where my point is. That's where the point of the country is. To just ignore that over and over again fuels the extreme anti-immigrant sentiment, and withdraws support for positive immigration, or for refugee compassion. It is also a massive reason why people don't vote in the direction of many on this thread, and also why the tories themselves are playing off it (with probably very little intention of doing anything seriously about it).

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I'm not sure it is less of a concern that it was 5 or 10 years ago, it might be that other things have gotten in the way. The fact remains however, more people want less immigration than more - that graph literally proves it. As I said - the middle ground answer is essentially 'don't mind' - I was highlighting how stupid it would be for me to say they want less, the same way it would be for you and others to say they want more.

Compare the top two and the bottom two, that's where my point is. That's where the point of the country is. To just ignore that over and over again fuels the extreme anti-immigrant sentiment, and withdraws support for positive immigration, or for refugee compassion. It is also a massive reason why people don't vote in the direction of many on this thread, and also why the tories themselves are playing off it (with probably very little intention of doing anything seriously about it).

Where is anyone saying they want as much immigration as possible? This is really about people opposing the idea of treating desperate people in boats as criminals

Grendel · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Because most immigrants coming here want to do the same.

To be fair his position is obviously different to what’s being discussed here

Grendel · Mar 8, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
You wanted someone to debate your points as an adult so I’ll give it a go.

Firstly your 1 or 1 million comment. You’re picking exaggerated numbers out of thin air to fit a view. If you want an adult conversation exaggeration isn’t the starting point.

Secondly “We’re a pushover”. Compared to who exactly? There’s 193 member states of the UN all signed up to the some standard on Human rights and 53 of those members are signed up to the higher standards of the UN human rights council. Narrow that down to the European stage. 46 countries signed up to common human rights and the ECHR. So who are we a soft touch compared to? South Korea? Iran? Is that the company you want us to keep?

Tony you advised someone who wanted to work in Europe for two weeks the best advice would be to sign up to Ancestry.com and try and see if you have an Irish relative

Very adult of you

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Again, this thread has a real habit of not reading things properly - which is almost certainly deliberate.

You are using the middle section to join your side (which is that you essentially want as much immigration as possible), when in reality they are essentially a 'don't mind' answer. You could put them either way.

I said: More people in the UK want less immigration than to increase it. That's fact. There are more people in that survey wanting to decrease immigration than increase it.

You can listen to those people, or you can ignore them. But this is why you keep losing election after election.

No. You're not reading things properly.

You're suggesting that I'm saying the middle section want more immigration. I'm not. I'm saying they don't want less.

So look at what it actually says.

We can both agree about the other four sections. 'Increased a lot' and 'increased a little' clearly want more migration. 'Decreased a lot' and 'decreased a little' clearly want less immigration.

Which leaves us with the big one in the middle. 'Remain the same as it is'. I'd happily say that that description says those people don't want higher immigration. But I'll equally say they doesn't want less. If you look at the graph title it says 'Do you think the number immigrants TO Britain nowadays should be'. It does not say 'number of immigrants IN Britain'

So if we've currently got, say, a few hundred thousand immigrants coming per year they're quite happy for it to remain as a few hundred thousand a year. Which would lead to an overall increase in migrants.

The argument that the likes of Braverman is using is that most people want reduced immigration in this country. In her mind they want it reduced by a lot. The graph that you posted shows that the majority actually don't. They're quite happy for migration to at least remain as it is.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2023

Grendel said:
To be fair his position is obviously different to what’s being discussed here

True-it’s about people who don’t have the freedom of choice being treated like law breakers. He is an economic migrant to another country-but he argues against too many people doing this.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2023

I see Sunak has right on cue called Starmer a ‘lefty lawyer’ for opposing the treatment of asylum seekers as criminals. Call an election and piss off

Skybluefaz · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
What have I said that makes me in a minority based on the question in that graph?

The point is that I don't think the majority of people are anti immigration where as you seem to be suggesting they are.

Forgetting all that, do you support this government policy then?

David O'Day · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Fuck me.

English and reading aren't strong points for you either ironically.

this what you said

"Regarding those in the bottom two or three sections: Does that mean all those people want no immigration? No. Does that mean all those people hate immigrants? No. Does that mean all those people think all immigrants are criminals? No. It just means that people think we have too much immigration, and are probably too soft on who we let into, and stay in, the UK. As I said, this contributes to an impatient and less caring attitude towards genuine refugees"

i pointed out that it would only be the bottom 2 sections as you can not include a remains the same group as people who and i quote you " No. It just means that people think we have too much immigration, and are probably too soft on who we let into, and stay in, the UK"

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 8, 2023

That graph clearly shows more think we need more immigration, think we've got it right, or have gone meh, than those who think we have too much! Why is this an arguement?!?

David O'Day · Mar 8, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
That graph clearly shows more think we need more immigration, think we've got it right, or have gone meh, than those who think we have too much! Why is this an arguement?!?

because he's thick

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 8, 2023

Frankly it wouldn't matter if the world approved of these policies, they'd still be immoral and cruel.

Deleted member 9744 · Mar 8, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I see Sunak has right on cue called Starmer a ‘lefty lawyer’ for opposing the treatment of asylum seekers as criminals. Call an election and piss off

These attacks on the legal system are dangerous and resonate of autocratic regimes. An independent judiciary is fundamental to a functioning democracy. Bravamen is a disgrace. Apparently sent out an email complaining about lefty lawyers and civil servants.

And yet some people think Starmer is as bad as this and equally dishonest.

clint van damme · Mar 8, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You mean, we are a pushover when it comes to losing people overstaying their visas? Well done Tony, you might be starting to see the point I'm making after all.

So why isn't that what the tories are focusing on?

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