shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Yes. Absolutely love PFI me. It’s how I paid for the Tony Blair statue in my front garden
He's suggesting PFI for the cancelled part of HS2 so he's right up your street
No. It’s a silly question. Let’s just cut to the chase: you think those metrics won’t improve under Starmer. I do.
Yes. Absolutely love PFI me. It’s how I paid for the Tony Blair statue in my front garden
Credit to you for buying a house for 70p
And I certainly didn’t need Daddy to tell me who to vote for just because he paid my school fees
I think the fundamental difference here is I see the Tory party as establishment power itself and not a set of policies. Most public Tory policy is there just to win elections rather than because of any deep ideological belief. The actual policy they want is never in a manifesto and snuck through by the back door in dull sounding bills we don’t hear about until someone does a deep dive ten years later.
So when Labour pick policies to get elected, they will look in many cases like Tory policy because the fact is for example most people in this country do worry about overspending. Irrationally maybe, but the job of a party trying to get elected isn’t to change minds. That has to happen earlier and frankly the left activist base has been horrible at this world wide for some time.
But once elected the difference between Johnson and Starmer or Sunak and Starmer really is one is just a normal bloke who did well for himself and the others are the literal global elite. People who have generational wealth, who went to private school and whose interests are a million miles from 99.9% of people living in this country.
We aren’t talking “bought his mum a field” we’re talking “bought his mum half of Kent”. It’s just a fundamental difference in policy drivers.
Yes. Absolutely love PFI me. It’s how I paid for the Tony Blair statue in my front garden
I don’t think any rational person would disagree but people have also got to be realistic. We live in a global world where it’s pretty much at peoples whim where they live/pay their taxes. That’s why the attached list should be commended to some extent as although they net income will be ridiculous, they’re choosing to pay that (look at the list of Brits that don’t !)
JK Rowling and Ed Sheeran estimated to be among UK's highest tax payers - BBC News
The 100 contributors, ranked by the Sunday Times, were judged to have paid £5.35bn in tax last year.www.bbc.co.uk
In this country the top 1% pay around 30% of total income tax. Top 10% pay around 60%. It’s a fine line though, have a look at what happened when Hollande tried to implement 75% wealth tax France and also what’s happening in Norway currently
Super-rich abandoning Norway at record rate as wealth tax rises slightly | Norway | The Guardian
Flood moving abroad has come as a shock and is costing tens of millions in lost tax receiptsamp.theguardian.com
France forced to drop 75% supertax after meagre returns | France | The Guardian
Hollande’s measure was meant to force wealthiest to help dig country out of economic crisis, but was accused of being anti-businessamp.theguardian.com
I personally think it’s disgusting that the super rich feel the need to avoid paying more tax but that’s the reality. If we want better public services it will be mainly middle and higher (not rich) income earners who will have to pay for it. Unless we suddenly get some global tax regimes implemented let’s have an honest debate about what we want as a country and what it will cost us
ps before you say it FP, I know we could just carry on printing more money to cover it
During the economic golden age in the USA taxes were at levels that they would call eye watering now. What we do have a lot of evidence for now is that when you give huge tax cuts to the richest and big business, they just say thanks very much and keep the money.There's nothing in either of those articles that actually says that redistributive tax lost more overall than it earned. Some very rich people left and complained long and loud about it, some stayed and paid up.
This is similar to the Laffer curve argument, one that actually doesn't really have a great deal of evidence to support it. It's a handy and overly simplistic tool for very rich and powerful people to convince the rest of us that redistributive taxation is a bad idea though.
Opinion: Laffer curve still hangs over mainstream tax debate
Arthur Laffer's famous bell curve still looms large in tax policy even though the evidence for it doesn’t stack up.www.internationaltaxreview.com
I hear you mate, and believe it or not I'm enjoying the debate. You make a lot of fair points.
Just to say though, a lot of the policies that Corbyn proposed, and that Starmer said he'd support when he ran as party leader (I voted for him, as a Labour member at that time), were popular. They're not in and of themselves going to lose voters.
And the fact that Starmer is a more normal bloke than the hugely wealthy that you correctly highlight, doesn't in itself mean that he's going to change anything significant on this regard.
There's little that he says or supports that seems to threaten the established order any more than the traditional Tories do, imho.
Anyway, here's a read that probably puts some of what I'm trying to say in a more coherent way.
The Guardian view on Labour’s green retreat: wrong, wrong, wrong | Editorial
Editorial: Keir Starmer’s announcement is a historic mistake on economic, political and environmental groundswww.theguardian.com
There's nothing in either of those articles that actually says that redistributive tax lost more overall than it earned. Some very rich people left and complained long and loud about it, some stayed and paid up.
This is similar to the Laffer curve argument, one that actually doesn't really have a great deal of evidence to support it. It's a handy and overly simplistic tool for very rich and powerful people to convince the rest of us that redistributive taxation is a bad idea though.
Opinion: Laffer curve still hangs over mainstream tax debate
Arthur Laffer's famous bell curve still looms large in tax policy even though the evidence for it doesn’t stack up.www.internationaltaxreview.com
Did mention his name before, but Clive Lewis has impressed me any time I’ve seen him.The problem with this “policies are popular” is this in isolation everything sounds great but then when you add it all up voters start asking about money and even now have this irrational belief Labour generally overspends and the Tories don’t. It’s maddening but it really is the biggest blocker to going into an election campaign on a left wing platform. And I don’t know how you change it, big discussion that for me starts with loosening Tory power over various institutions. But as I say when you’re leader of a party you have a five year max timescale to get elected. It’s very hard to shift things from opposition, not so much from government (look at social indicators before and after Blair for example). So it really is deal with what you have.
I’ve said this before and I don’t think it’ll go down any better this time but quite how bad Corbyn was in the eyes of the public has made a lot of policy simply off limits because of how much distance you need to put between any Labour govt and Corbyn.
2017 we had a decent overall strategy in terms of balance, the God awful leader, some terrible strategy as a result of not having done it before, and some grim hangers on ruined that, but at its core it’s a good strategy for a left wing leader. Problem really is we don’t have a competent left wing leader. Or a charismatic one. Where is the lefts Boris or Farage let alone their Obama, Blair or even Cameron? The very fact Corbyn stood “because it was his turn” shows how little effort the left puts into electoral success. Yet expects everyone else to produce exactly what they want.
Did mention his name before, but Clive Lewis has impressed me any time I’ve seen him.
Laura Trott is a prime example of somebody promoted way beyond their ability because the talent pool is so small.
Yep.Funny name for a Tory tho so I’ll let it slide.
(is she the one Evan Davis took apart over fiscal rules?)
I’m not at all convinced by brain drain as a phenomenon outside of extremes TBH. We lose far more talent because our wages are shit and our country is unlivable than we do because of tax rates.
Don't forget how much talent is simply overlooked at the top echelons of civil service, politics, and industry, just for not going to the right school.
There's no lack of talent and serious brain power in my current line of work (finance), or where I was before (the car industry), but they ain't often the ones on the really big money right at the top, funnily enough.
Did mention his name before, but Clive Lewis has impressed me any time I’ve seen him.
Apropos of our earlier discussion @CCFCSteve
View attachment 33951
Fag packet maths and my payslip suggest Sunak is paying about 22% of his income as tax and I’m paying closer to 40%. Surely something simple like CGT reform raises tax with little impact on the average person?
It surely isn't controversial that earned income should be taxed at a lower rate than unearned income.Apropos of our earlier discussion @CCFCSteve
View attachment 33951
Fag packet maths and my payslip suggest Sunak is paying about 22% of his income as tax and I’m paying closer to 40%. Surely something simple like CGT reform raises tax with little impact on the average person?
He's saying the same thing as me you titMick absolutely nails it there
Looking forward to the scathing attack from FP on him.
Is he?Isnt he the misogynist?
Why did the RMT stop donating to Labour? More to the point why hasn’t it restarted?He’s absolutely spot on. The filthy Tory.
Apropos of our earlier discussion @CCFCSteve
View attachment 33951
Fag packet maths and my payslip suggest Sunak is paying about 22% of his income as tax and I’m paying closer to 40%. Surely something simple like CGT reform raises tax with little impact on the average person?
He's saying the same thing as me you tit
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You've made no comment at all over what you want from Labour apart from them being the good guys for you on this occasionNo he's not he's literally saying the same as me and shmmeee hence BSB's comment
To get to the other side?Why did the RMT stop donating to Labour? More to the point why hasn’t it restarted?
You've made no comment at all over what you want from Labour apart from them being the good guys for you on this occasion
Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Did they ever?Why did the RMT stop donating to Labour? More to the point why hasn’t it restarted?
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