Do you want to discuss boring politics? (19 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Given a magical fantasy land where the electorate consists entirely of you, Ian and CvD then sure.

Given the real world where it’s Labour or Tories, I’ll choose Labour every time.

Why aren’t you angry with the left for fucking up their big change like I am? Why aren’t you frustrated at the glaring lack of talent in the SCG? Why do you keep giving these fucking awful politicians a free pass and blaming people who actually try to get elected instead of whining that everything isn’t fair?

You’re not fucking lefties. You’re in it for the aesthetic and the ability to grumpily sit at the side and say everything is shit. You have no wish for left wing politics to get into power because that might mean having to sully your oh so precious principles. Principles you never want tested in case you find they come up short outside of protest lines and academia.

We’ve had those things called trade unions securing better pay and terms for their members in the last few years despite the Labour Party not wanting to know and the Tories trying to outlaw strikes. That is the ‘hard left’ exercising some power for the better.

 

---

[shmmeee]

We’ve had those things called trade unions securing better pay and terms for their members in the last few years despite the Labour Party not wanting to know and the Tories trying to outlaw strikes. That is the ‘hard left’ exercising some power for the better.

Oh. My mistake. I’ll cast a vote for Mick Lynch when I get to the polling booth.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh. My mistake. I’ll cast a vote for Mick Lynch when I get to the polling booth.

Interesting. How would the party get on without its union funding anyway?

 

[shmmeee]

Interesting. How would the party get on without its union funding anyway?

Dunno. Would probably have to court more business.

Who would you have from the SCG over Starmer? And remember John McDonnell comes with almost as much baggage as Jezza.

You could have any of these political big beasts: Socialist Campaign Group - Wikipedia

Stop running away from the job of a political party because it makes you feel icky. How are you going to get one of these fine MPs elected as PM? Catch: you can’t blame a conspiracy against you in your answer.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Dunno. Would probably have to court more business.

Who would you have from the SCG over Starmer? And remember John McDonnell comes with almost as much baggage as Jezza.

You could have any of these political big beasts: Socialist Campaign Group - Wikipedia

Stop running away from the job of a political party because it makes you feel icky. How are you going to get one of these fine MPs elected as PM? Catch: you can’t blame a conspiracy against you in your answer.

Clive Lewis.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Interesting. How would the party get on without its union funding anyway?

Should be central funding

 

[fernandopartridge]

Dunno. Would probably have to court more business.

Who would you have from the SCG over Starmer? And remember John McDonnell comes with almost as much baggage as Jezza.

You could have any of these political big beasts: Socialist Campaign Group - Wikipedia

Stop running away from the job of a political party because it makes you feel icky. How are you going to get one of these fine MPs elected as PM? Catch: you can’t blame a conspiracy against you in your answer.

Why do you constantly rattle on about individuals? I don't care about the SCG or any individual politician.

I don't know why you're so uptight about anybody criticising Starmer, he's going to piss the election so what does it matter?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

[shmmeee]

Why do you constantly rattle on about individuals? I don't care about the SCG or any individual politician.

I don't know why you're so uptight about anybody criticising Starmer, he's going to piss the election so what does it matter?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Because those are your choices. That’s the best the left has managed to get elected. And until that changes you can’t bitch that it’s not in charge of the party FFS.

I’m frustrated with people who claim to want left wing policy enacted by government but are intent on never actually trying to make it happen because what they actually want is to feel oh so special compared to the people actually cracking on and trying to win elections.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Because those are your choices. That’s the best the left has managed to get elected. And until that changes you can’t bitch that it’s not in charge of the party FFS.

I’m frustrated with people who claim to want left wing policy enacted by government but are intent on never actually trying to make it happen because what they actually want is to feel oh so special compared to the people actually cracking on and trying to win elections.

I'm not a labour member and never have been, I'm not really interested in the factions. I just want a Labour government that has a bit more hope to offer than this drivel:

Instead, Starmer said, significant barriers to growth could be tackled without extra spending, such as changes to the planning system and more efficient public services

What is left wing about this? This is essentially what the Cameron Osborne government promised in 2010.

Housing legacy left by Cameron and Osborne is the strongest for a generation

The Housing & Finance Institution has said David Cameron and George Osborne left one of the strongest housing legacies of any government for a generation…

www.pbctoday.co.uk

I get that it isn't generally electorally expedient to promise to spend spend spend. However, if you're not going to even commit to reversing the departmental cuts promised by Jeremy Hunt, what are you going to do?

We're probably at different stages here, you're pinning your hopes on Starmer and co as agents for people with your beliefs because they're standing for Labour, the party you and your family are heavily invested in. I'm just reading what they actually say and reacting to that.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk[/Quote]

 

[dutchman]

Leaked email reveals Keir Starmer vetoed Thatcher criticism

Exclusive: As the Labour leader faces a backlash over his praise for the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped former frontbencher Sam Tarry from attacking her ‘failed’ transport policies in 2021

www.independent.co.uk

Sir Keir Starmer’s top team prevented a shadow minister from criticising Margaret Thatcher, The Independent can reveal.

As the Labour leader faces a backlash for his praise of the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped Sam Tarry, then the party’s shadow minister for transport, from attacking her failed policies in 2021.

Left-winger Mr Tarry had wanted to criticise her 1985 Transport Act, saying it “failed to deliver lower fares and better services across Greater Manchester”.

But when the comments were sent to Sir Keir’s office for approval, one of his top aides insisted the reference to Thatcher be taken out.

The leaked email said: “Can we take out the Thatcher stuff and instead criticise the current government?”

 

[clint van damme]

Leaked email reveals Keir Starmer vetoed Thatcher criticism

Exclusive: As the Labour leader faces a backlash over his praise for the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped former frontbencher Sam Tarry from attacking her ‘failed’ transport policies in 2021

www.independent.co.uk

Sir Keir Starmer’s top team prevented a shadow minister from criticising Margaret Thatcher, The Independent can reveal.

As the Labour leader faces a backlash for his praise of the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped Sam Tarry, then the party’s shadow minister for transport, from attacking her failed policies in 2021.

Left-winger Mr Tarry had wanted to criticise her 1985 Transport Act, saying it “failed to deliver lower fares and better services across Greater Manchester”.

But when the comments were sent to Sir Keir’s office for approval, one of his top aides insisted the reference to Thatcher be taken out.

The leaked email said: “Can we take out the Thatcher stuff and instead criticise the current government?”

Nice to see Keith's got a policy he's actually sticking to for once!

 

[skybluetony176]

Sunak had his first defeat in the commons yesterday.

Ministers lose infected blood vote after Tory MPs revolt

MPs were voting on a plan to set up a compensation scheme for infected blood scandal victims.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder if we’ll see more of this as a lot are standing down at the next GE and plenty more won’t be expecting to win? Still, on a positive it should have passed given the importance of the situation and how long it’s been going on for. Give it a few months and Sunak will be trying to take credit for it.

 

[skybluetony176]

Also on this immigration clampdown surely the draw for medical professionals coming to the UK was largely because you could bring your dependants. Where’s the incentive now? Sounds like a trap for the next government who will have to reverse it for the benefit of the NHS.

 

[clint van damme]

Also on this immigration clampdown surely the draw for medical professionals coming to the UK was largely because you could bring your dependants. Where’s the incentive now? Sounds like a trap for the next government who will have to reverse it for the benefit of the NHS.

There was a lot in what Cleverley said yesterday that wasn't explained.
There's no way the new rules won't affect NHS recruitment when we're already woefully short, is there going to be a drive to train and recruit from the current population?

Same with social care. If we have to recruit from the indigenous population wages are going to go up and thus costs, will they be passed on to the elderly given limits have been put on how much they can take off people?

Overseas students subsidise UK students, if overseas numbers now drop, which they're predicted to, will fees go up?

Would be good to hear if they have a plan for all this.

 

[skybluetony176]

There was a lot in what Cleverley said yesterday that wasn't explained.
There's no way the new rules won't affect NHS recruitment when we're already woefully short, is there going to be a drive to train and recruit from the current population?

Same with social care. If we have to recruit from the indigenous population wages are going to go up and thus costs, will they be passed on to the elderly given limits have been put on how much they can take off people?

Overseas students subsidise UK students, if overseas numbers now drop, which they're predicted to, will fees go up?

Would be good to hear if they have a plan for all this.

Pretty much what Yvette Cooper was saying in response. She was also pointing out that employers were allowed to employ for example an engineer on 20% lower wages as an immigrant compared to a British engineer which is also linked to a drop off in training British engineers. Labour’s plan is apparently to drop the discount for foreign workers and invest in training in fields like engineering to address the labour shortages.

 

[shmmeee]

Pretty much what Yvette Cooper was saying in response. She was also pointing out that employers were allowed to employ for example an engineer on 20% lower wages as an immigrant compared to a British engineer which is also linked to a drop off in training British engineers. Labour’s plan is apparently to drop the discount for foreign workers and invest in training in fields like engineering to address the labour shortages.

We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.

 

[clint van damme]

We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.

I know you'll disagree with my funding idea but I said this is where we should have directed the HS2 money.

A normal functioning country that's world's 6th biggest economy would be financing both.

 

[shmmeee]

I know you'll disagree with my funding idea but I said this is where we should have directed the HS2 money.

A normal functioning country that's world's 6th biggest economy would be financing both.

We need both. Productivity is in the toilet because all our infrastructure is shite whether it’s human or not.

I honestly think a lot of it is down to the weird class system in this country that values law and finance and PPE and not Maths and Physics and Engineering.

 

[clint van damme]

We need both. Productivity is in the toilet because all our infrastructure is shite whether it’s human or not.

I honestly think a lot of it is down to the weird class system in this country that values law and finance and PPE and not Maths and Physics and Engineering.

It's also down to the remuneration finance, particularly the city, can offer someone with a head for maths, Gary Stevenson has spoken about this.

 

[shmmeee]

It's also down to the remuneration finance, particularly the city, can offer someone with a head for maths, Gary Stevenson has spoken about this.

Thing is when you’re bright you’re looking at the world market as well. I could triple my salary in the states and probably by 50% in almost any other developed nation.

Finance pays, but tech and engineering doesn’t. Honestly not sure why that is. In almost all skilled professions we’re known as a low wage country.

 

[clint van damme]

Thing is when you’re bright you’re looking at the world market as well. I could triple my salary in the states and probably by 50% in almost any other developed nation.

Finance pays, but tech and engineering doesn’t. Honestly not sure why that is. In almost all skilled professions we’re known as a low wage country.

Tragic isn't it?

 

[Ian1779]

We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.

This is the kind of thing I want to see Labour promoting. It’s a multi faceted solution that will help with immigration and the workforce skills gap to just begin with 2 benefits -
This is what progressive should look like.

Instead we see Shadow ministers coming out talking about the Rwanda scheme being not value for money rather than outright objection to it, or offering a meaningful alternative.

Surely that must concern you too?

 

[CCFCSteve]

We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.

Agreed. Pretty much what I’ve been saying for the past few years. Incentivise those in certain skill shortage areas and likely requirements in future. Bursaries, zero/reduced tuition or vocational course fees etc in certain sectors would be the first stage. Tie this assistance into working in the country for X years post completion

Second, as you say, is trying to better align and/or improve the salaries where there’s shortages, especially if that’s something like social care which government can directly influence. It can indirectly influence something like tech with incentives for businesses etc although more difficult to change wages

I know it’s just repeating myself but as a country we’ve got addicted to cheaper imported labour. It was refreshing to see the long term NHS staff plan, about time ! but ones been needed for the country as a whole for donkeys years…or at the very least since Brexit

ps not sure about the recent changes to immigration policy. Some of the changes feel like they’re likely to cause more issues though. Devils in the details I guess.

 

[shmmeee]

This is the kind of thing I want to see Labour promoting. It’s a multi faceted solution that will help with immigration and the workforce skills gap to just begin with 2 benefits -
This is what progressive should look like.

Instead we see Shadow ministers coming out talking about the Rwanda scheme being not value for money rather than outright objection to it, or offering a meaningful alternative.

Surely that must concern you too?

Im not really bothered by pre election rhetoric designed to get Tory votes. I’ll judge him on the manifesto.

 

[shmmeee]

Oh, look what’s at the top of my Twitter feed…

 

[fernandopartridge]

Agreed. Pretty much what I’ve been saying for the past few years. Incentivise those in certain skill shortage areas and likely requirements in future. Bursaries, zero/reduced tuition or vocational course fees etc in certain sectors would be the first stage. Tie this assistance into working in the country for X years post completion

Second, as you say, is trying to better align and/or improve the salaries where there’s shortages, especially if that’s something like social care which government can directly influence. It can indirectly influence something like tech with incentives for businesses etc although more difficult to change wages

I know it’s just repeating myself but as a country we’ve got addicted to cheaper imported labour. It was refreshing to see the long term NHS staff plan, about time ! but ones been needed for the country as a whole for donkeys years…or at the very least since Brexit

ps not sure about the recent changes to immigration policy. Some of the changes feel like they’re likely to cause more issues though. Devils in the details I guess.

Austerity is a massive driver of demand for cheap labour

 

[shmmeee]

Interesting thread on immigration and education.

 

[wingy]

What are we supposed to draw from this

 

[CCFCSteve]

Austerity is a massive driver of demand for cheap labour

As I’ve suggested, the government can directly influence wages in say social care which would require increased Council funding. It could also focus on certain key sectors to better subsidise/incentivise further education which would require central government investment. There’s no ‘plan’ though. Just short term reactive policy

 

[fernandopartridge]

Oh, look what’s at the top of my Twitter feed…

That comes from your false assumption that people who want left wing policy in the Labour party want it to be fronted up by the politicians you mention. The second post on his thread is absolute nonsense drivel and says that he's the crank.

 

[clint van damme]

Oh, look what’s at the top of my Twitter feed…

A paedophile?

 

[shmmeee]

What are we supposed to draw from this

Immigrant kids improve our education system like Canada and Aus not the opposite like the EU

 

[shmmeee]

OK guys I didn’t look into the Twitter rando

 

[shmmeee]

That comes from your false assumption that people who want left wing policy in the Labour party want it to be fronted up by the politicians you mention. The second post on his thread is absolute nonsense drivel and says that he's the crank.

Then who? Because you can only work with what you’ve got. Are you not frustrated by the low quality of left wing MPs?

 

[shmmeee]

Oh good. Another international comparison to worry about that I hadn’t even thought of