Do you want to discuss boring politics? (22 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Imo the contracts for PPE remain the biggest scandal

It’s up there. But you have to remember who controls the tone and why they give people like Michelle Mone a free pass. She comes from the same place as the Murdochs, the remaining Barclay brother and the Rothermeres. She’s one of them and they look after their own so have you distracted with things like boats and Rwanda. Same reason Sunak wrote off billions in covid fraud. Cronyism.

 

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[SBT]

So id probably restrict to middle class professions outside of similar western nations.

How are you defining nations as being similar (or not) to the UK?

 

[shmmeee]

How are you defining nations as being similar (or not) to the UK?

GDP per capita mostly.

 

[CCFCSteve]

It’s up there. But you have to remember who controls the tone and why they give people like Michelle Mone a free pass. She comes from the same place as the Murdochs, the remaining Barclay brother and the Rothermeres. She’s one of them and they look after their own so have you distracted with things like boats and Rwanda. Same reason Sunak wrote off billions in covid fraud. Cronyism.

Most of the covid fraud (bounceback/CBILS loans) relates to the poor lending processes. To be fair, it was desperate times and the government/British business bank were just desperate to get cash out to businesses to stop them all going bust. Typically though fraudsters and greedy fuckers took advantage of this. The PPE/contracts to businesses with no history in that area, who then didn’t deliver suitable kit was a disgrace. Isn’t Mone deal being investigated ? Hope people get sent down and/or made to repay the cash

 

[Grendel]

This would have been a right zinger before me and NW had a conversation clarifying how it would be done.

But you’re right, no jobs in Cornwall, so we’re unlikely to build there, more likely to increase density in the cities where the jobs are. As I said.

Oh ok problem solved then

 

[shmmeee]

Oh ok problem solved then

Yep

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Not surprising I am, when I hear that we've "only built on a tiny tiny percentage of the country."

Compared to most countries in the world, we're over-densely populated. 152 per km2 in China btw, about a third of the density in England.

There are vast parts of China that really are not habitable.

 

[Grendel]

Yep

Next you will be pretending you aren’t really more a Tory these days than me

 

[skybluetony176]

Most of the covid fraud (bounceback/CBILS loans) relates to the poor lending processes. To be fair, it was desperate times and the government/British business bank were just desperate to get cash out to businesses to stop them all going bust. Typically though fraudsters and greedy fuckers took advantage of this. The PPE/contracts to businesses with no history in that area, who then didn’t deliver suitable kit was a disgrace. Isn’t Mone deal being investigated ? Hope people get sent down and/or made to repay the cash

But even the governments own estimates was that they could if they wished get a quarter of it back. I understand that it was a desperate time but the fact that they believed that they could get a quarter of it back and chose not to demonstrates how they value the public purse. The failed test and trace system too. What was the final bill? Over £30B IIRC, what the hell did Dido Harding do with it. Needs explaining.

 

[shmmeee]

More horrific hell holes that make Birmingham a paradise: Geneva, Paris, Seoul, Barcelona.

Oh the horrors of cities denser than London.

 

[shmmeee]

Next you will be pretending you aren’t really more a Tory these days than me

Im not sure what you are. It strongly depends on what I’m arguing it seems.

As I said support for immigration is more a right wing than left wing thing.

Now ask me about tax and spend.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

More horrific hell holes that make Birmingham a paradise: Geneva, Paris, Seoul, Barcelona.

Oh the horrors of cities denser than London.

A bit like plucking the random countries for population density, we could always pick a few cities that are indeed horrific.

(And as for those picked, Paris has a deeply seedy underbelly btw, really not sure I like it! Barcelona as far as I could see was split into good tourist vs slight shantiness. Can't speak for Seoul, but I did know people who couldn't wait to escape because living in that way was driving them insane! OK, this government sent them back because they only had a temporary work contract for three years...)

 

[shmmeee]

A bit like plucking the random countries for population density, we could always pick a few cities that are indeed horrific.

(And as for those picked, Paris has a deeply seedy underbelly btw, really not sure I like it! Barcelona as far as I could see was split into good tourist vs slight shantiness. Can't speak for Seoul, but I did know people who couldn't wait to escape because living in that way was driving them insane! OK, this government sent them back because they only had a temporary work contract for three years...)

Again, your starting point is Birmingham.

It’s about design decisions but you can have perfectly liveable walkable cities that hold more than our current biggest cities.

Forget everything else. Why can’t central London be like Manhattan? Would that be so terrible?

 

[shmmeee]

I mean even if we stopped all the foreigners we’d still need to build something like a million homes to meet what we have. Are we saying that’s impossible?

 

[clint van damme]

Why can’t central London be like Manhattan?

It is!

 

[wingy]

GDP per capita mostly.

A style of presentation we're getting used to.

 

[shmmeee]

It is!

It’s really not. Its density is 3 x central London.

 

[SBT]

Why can’t central London be like Manhattan? Would that be so terrible?

It’s never going to happen and large parts of Manhattan are not easy places to live!

 

[shmmeee]

A style of presentation we're getting used to.

What happened to Japan in 2010?

 

[shmmeee]

It’s never going to happen and large parts of Manhattan are not easy places to live!

Neither are large parts of London or Birmingham or Manchester. Big cities do be like that.

And there’s a huge amount of room between the two. We could double density in central London and Manhattan’s would still be 50% higher. And we don’t even need to do that.

I assume you’re another “country is full” type. I just don’t see the logic.

 

[SBT]

GDP per capita mostly.

So throw open the doors to the UAE and Kuwait, but Ukraine goes to the back of the line with India?

 

[Sick Boy]

How much of England is actually built on? Pretty sure it’s less than 10%; all countries in Western Europe require immigration to offset people living longer and decreasing birth rates.

 

[wingy]

Stack em high?

 

[wingy]

What happened to Japan in 2010?

Chinaa?

 

[wingy]

It’s really not. Its density is 3 x central London.

That's just central right? London?

 

[shmmeee]

So throw open the doors to the UAE and Kuwait, but Ukraine goes to the back of the line with India?

Pretty much. You get we are talking about open immigration and not asylum/students/high skill right?

 

[shmmeee]

That's just central right? London?

yeah

 

[SBT]

Neither are large parts of London or Birmingham or Manchester. Big cities do be like that.

And there’s a huge amount of room between the two. We could double density in central London and Manhattan’s would still be 50% higher. And we don’t even need to do that.

I assume you’re another “country is full” type. I just don’t see the logic.

You assume wrong - I just mean that Manhattan’s population density is deeply unusual for a major western city, and is the product of urban planning, economic and cultural factors that can’t be replicated in central London, which is thousands of years old. And having lived in both places, central London is a much more pleasant place to live. I’m not being a NIMBY saying that - let a thousand blossoms bloom etc - but we’re not about to turn Westminster into the Lower East Side and we shouldn’t pretend we can either.

 

[shmmeee]

How much of England is actually built on? Pretty sure it’s less than 10%; all countries in Western Europe require immigration to offset people living longer and decreasing birth rates.

If you include gardens it’s just under 15% I think.

 

[shmmeee]

You assume wrong - I just mean that Manhattan’s population density is deeply unusual for a major western city, and is the product of urban planning, economic and cultural factors that can’t be replicated in central London, which is thousands of years old. And having lived in both places, central London is a much more pleasant place to live. I’m not being a NIMBY saying that - let a thousand blossoms bloom etc - but we’re not about to turn Westminster into the Lower East Side and we shouldn’t pretend we can either.

But we don’t need to. I’m using these cities as examples because people are saying we can’t increase density at all. As I say there’s huge swathes of ground between central London now and Manhattan. But people are acting like if we add another storey to some buildings we’ll be living in slum land. It’s nonsense.

 

[shmmeee]

Actually if you want Manhattan Milton Keynes probably makes most sense.

Stick some high speed connections to Oxford, Cambridge, London and Birmingham in and you’d grow it to the millions easily.

 

[SBT]

Pretty much. You get we are talking about open immigration and not asylum/students/high skill right?

I’m just trying to understand why countries with high GDP per capita - a table typically topped by Middle East petrostates and gambling dens - are considered to be more culturally similar to us than, say, much poorer Commonwealth states who have used our language and legal system for more than a century.

 

[shmmeee]

I’m just trying to understand why countries with high GDP per capita - a table typically topped by Middle East petrostates and gambling dens - are considered to be more culturally similar to us than, say, much poorer Commonwealth states who have used our language and legal system for more than a century.

It’s not just about culture. It’s about the number of people that are likely to emigrate. Most Kuwaitis and Arabs emigrant between the countries, not to the UK. If we opened up to Ukraine we’d have the same issues we had in the early 2000s.

 

[SBT]

But we don’t need to. I’m using these cities as examples because people are saying we can’t increase density at all. As I say there’s huge swathes of ground between central London now and Manhattan. But people are acting like if we add another storey to some buildings we’ll be living in slum land. It’s nonsense.

I agree with you there, but it’s one thing to attract millions more people to cramp together in New York, the cultural and financial capital of the planet. Persuading them to move to a windowless studio in Milton Keynes may be a tougher pitch…

 

[Grendel]

I mean even if we stopped all the foreigners we’d still need to build something like a million homes to meet what we have. Are we saying that’s impossible?

You have a financial interest in land acquisition don’t you?