Do you want to discuss boring politics? (18 Viewers)

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Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
In the interest of balance it’s worth pointing out that Boris cleansed the Tory of non believers in a massive cull and then replaced them with the moronic 2019 intake of nodding donkeys meaning that the Tories are currently swimming in cesspool of talentless chancers who wouldn’t have been allowed anywhere near parliament let alone the cabinet at any other point in history. Let’s face it, no one in the Tories is fit to tie Abbot’s shoes. That’s not praise of Abbot by the way, we all remember what a walking disaster zone she was at the last GE. Although I feel for Abbot and think she’s been treated badly she’s not exactly the strongest link and is a very decisive character. The fact that Starmer is willing to get rid of his weakest link whereas a prerequisite of the Tories at the last GE was you must be a weaker link it in one sense speaks highly of Starmer. He’s a prick for treating her like he has but at least her replacement is likely to be an improvement. Having said all that he should have reinstated her as a Labour MP are beginning of the year and should be letting her run for reelection as a Labour MP.
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I wouldn't describe as decisive Tony
 
Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
Health outcomes aren't solely down to the health service or the method of funding it. The UK's starting position is often worse than European contemporaries because it has some of the worst rates of poverty in Europe and the attendant problems that come with it.

In any event the care is not solely provided by NHS Trusts and Foundation Trusts, plenty is provided by the private sector under the NHS badge.

.
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That’s such a blatant politicians answer. Do you accept the NHS doesn’t achieve the best health outcomes in Europe if you’re shifting the blame on poverty on the outcomes?

Does the NHS and Britain as a country have nothing to learn from anyone else?

shmmeee said:
I’ll leave FP for the NHS facts, he knows far more than me. Clearly you’re an ideologue who doesn’t believe in the public sector. That’s fine, some people are communists too, but don’t expect such a fringe view to be taken seriously.

The Telegraph is not a serious newspaper. They continually print provable nonsense and conspiracy theories as fact.
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Come on, don’t back down now when you’ve called me out for not doing research.

The NHS needing serious reform is a view held by both the Tories and Labour. Wes Streeting has said we need to use the private sector to clear backlogs and was visiting Singapore and Australia to review their funding methods. Both systems utilise social insurance systems. I read a book by Blair’s chief of staff and it mentioned that PFI was introduced because of concerns around the sustainability of the NHS - a failed policy, yes.

No, my views comes from personal experience. I’ve been waiting to see a consultant for 9-18 months and thankfully, my new job has private healthcare insurance and was seen by a healthcare I chose within 2 weeks.

In 2019, I was an ideologue who had blind faith in the NHS and blamed everything on lack of funding from a Tory government.

I really don’t like how you make assumptions about people you don’t know and you wouldn’t be talking to me like this if we were having an honest conversation in person. I haven’t called you stupid, or tell you the news you read is ‘lunatic’ or that you get your opinions from Twitter grifters. Have some humility man.

People have their reasons for holding the views they do and you may disagree with them, but generally they’re acting in good faith.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys said:
That’s such a blatant politicians answer. Do you accept the NHS doesn’t achieve the best health outcomes in Europe if you’re shifting the blame on poverty on the outcomes?

Does the NHS and Britain as a country have nothing to learn from anyone else?



Come on, don’t back down now when you’ve called me out for not doing research.

The NHS needing serious reform is a view held by both the Tories and Labour. Wes Streeting has said we need to use the private sector to clear backlogs and was visiting Singapore and Australia to review their funding methods. Both systems utilise social insurance systems. I read a book by Blair’s chief of staff and it mentioned that PFI was introduced because of concerns around the sustainability of the NHS - a failed policy, yes.

No, my views comes from personal experience. I’ve been waiting to see a consultant for 9-18 months and thankfully, my new job has private healthcare insurance and was seen by a healthcare I chose within 2 weeks.

In 2019, I was an ideologue who had blind faith in the NHS and blamed everything on lack of funding from a Tory government.

I really don’t like how you make assumptions about people you don’t know and you wouldn’t be talking to me like this if we were having an honest conversation in person. I haven’t called you stupid, or tell you the news you read is ‘lunatic’ or that you get your opinions from Twitter grifters. Have some humility man.

People have their reasons for holding the views they do and you may disagree with them, but generally they’re acting in good faith.
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Mate. You’ve come in here spouting nonsense conspiracy theories about how public sector workers don’t work hard cos reasons with no clue what you’re on about, which frankly is fucking insulting to anyone who has worked in the sector. Quoting dodgy sources and continually being wrong on the facts.

I’m sure it is good faith, but you’re basing your good faith opinions on sand. You claimed we need fewer managers when all the data says otherwise. You claimed the model is unsustainable without evidence. You made out the NHS is overstaffed when it’s around normal staffing levels for the industry. You continually quote nonsense right wing talking points.

Then we find out you’re getting all your information from an extreme right publication that doesn’t believe in the public sector.

As I said, believing in pure capitalism is a take, as is believing in communism, but it’s a fringe one that most won’t take seriously. Like communism.

Here is some actual research on the NHS:


Here’s the cliff notes:

IMG_1222.jpeg
IMG_1223.jpeg

The fact is the NHS is underfunded and like other public sector areas takes the strain when other services are cut.

There is no evidence that a publicly owned system is less efficient, or less cost effective than other systems.

Here’s are some international comparisons on what’s spent on healthcare. The idea we aren’t getting value for money is a nonsense.

IMG_1225.png
IMG_1224.png

I’m sorry but come on here with flat earthism and get treated like a flat earther.

There is no evidence the NHS is particularly bad. The constant drum beat for its privatisation is purely ideological.
 
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C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
clint van damme said:
Doesn't reflect well on the politicians who have run roughshod over their terms and conditions for the last 10 years you mean?
And given Labour's insistence on 'fiscal rules' why mess about with ultimatums? It's clear where they stand.
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It doesn’t reflect well on the government and people will have their opportunity to show their dissatisfaction in a few weeks.

Surely if you’re the BMA you just wait to have a meeting/start negotiations with Labour after the election ? Would delaying it hurt their ‘cause’ and they could use the threat of an upcoming strike as leverage. This is peoples lives we’re talking about FFS
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
It doesn’t reflect well on the government and people will have their opportunity to show their dissatisfaction in a few weeks.

Surely if you’re the BMA you just wait to have a meeting/start negotiations with Labour after the election ? Would delaying it hurt their ‘cause’ and they could use the threat of an upcoming strike as leverage. This is peoples lives we’re talking about FFS
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Junior doctors have taken shit for decade. Fuck trying to guilt trip them. This is down to the politicians, who've been rewarding themselves quite generously throughout the same period I might add.
 
David O'Day

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
clint van damme said:
I'm not on about anyone else, I'm on about Akehurst, he's a c**t.
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yeah, even more so in person but the main gist of that tweet thread was that she had be deselected because she liked that video, it's the AS bullshit in the tweet itself that did for her. It's borderline but you can't say you have zero tolere
ance on AS behaviour and let it slide.
 
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Yes, every doctor and physio I know who works in the NHS seems to think there’s too much middle management.

All of whom, for your context, are of the Labour left / Greens.
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This is a stupid and simplistic argument trotted out by people who swallow tabloid rhetoric without thinking.

You do realise that hospitals are quite big and complicated places and need a lot of management to function? You think it's a good idea to train doctors and other health professionals to do this work? When organisations do this the professional staff always complain they are taken away from doing their job because they spend all their time doing paperwork.
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
David O'Day said:
yeah, even more so in person but the main gist of that tweet thread was that she had be deselected because she liked that video, it's the AS bullshit in the tweet itself that did for her. It's borderline but you can't say you have zero tolere
ance on AS behaviour and let it slide.
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Didn't even read the tweet, just saw Akehurst named and had a dig, can't stand him, think he'll be a shit constituency MP, but you neverknow, he might surprise me
 
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
Mucca Mad Boys said:
That’s such a blatant politicians answer. Do you accept the NHS doesn’t achieve the best health outcomes in Europe if you’re shifting the blame on poverty on the outcomes?

Does the NHS and Britain as a country have nothing to learn from anyone else?



Come on, don’t back down now when you’ve called me out for not doing research.

The NHS needing serious reform is a view held by both the Tories and Labour. Wes Streeting has said we need to use the private sector to clear backlogs and was visiting Singapore and Australia to review their funding methods. Both systems utilise social insurance systems. I read a book by Blair’s chief of staff and it mentioned that PFI was introduced because of concerns around the sustainability of the NHS - a failed policy, yes.

No, my views comes from personal experience. I’ve been waiting to see a consultant for 9-18 months and thankfully, my new job has private healthcare insurance and was seen by a healthcare I chose within 2 weeks.

In 2019, I was an ideologue who had blind faith in the NHS and blamed everything on lack of funding from a Tory government.

I really don’t like how you make assumptions about people you don’t know and you wouldn’t be talking to me like this if we were having an honest conversation in person. I haven’t called you stupid, or tell you the news you read is ‘lunatic’ or that you get your opinions from Twitter grifters. Have some humility man.

People have their reasons for holding the views they do and you may disagree with them, but generally they’re acting in good faith.
Click to expand...
You keep talking about other options? So what are these? The US system? Believe me very few American doctors would recommend that.

Are you basically saying poor people should miss out on free treatment?
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
clint van damme said:
Junior doctors have taken shit for decade. Fuck trying to guilt trip them. This is down to the politicians, who've been rewarding themselves quite generously throughout the same period I might add.
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I’ve said they deserve more. My point is what’s the point of striking a week before the election when there’s almost certainly going to be a change of government ?

If the reason for the strike is to try to get better pay and conditions why do you do it at a time when neither party can do anything about it ? The timing is totally unacceptable
 
Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Deleted member 9744 said:
You keep talking about other options? So what are these? The US system? Believe me very few American doctors would recommend that.

Are you basically saying poor people should miss out on free treatment?
Click to expand...

No, most European systems have universal social insurance systems that is free at the point of use. The funding model is slughtly

Singapore has a mandatory health savings that functions similar to NI but patients can withdraw that to pay for private care should they need. Australia utilises a hybrid system too and that healthcare system is a destination of a lot our clinical staff leaving the NHS!

The conversation around healthcare is this assumption that it’s either the NHS or the US system. It isn’t.
 
Liquid Gold

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
Fuck am I ever voting for Kim Jong Starmer. The factionalism is absurd and he's offering fuck all.

Let him smash the election and then be faced with 5 years of a hostile press, no ideas to change the shit show and the realisation that punching left won't answer all his problems.

It's time for both main parties to die out. Which they probably would in a decent electoral system. Which is why neither will ever change it.
 
David O'Day

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
Liquid Gold said:
Fuck am I ever voting for Kim Jong Starmer. The factionalism is absurd and he's offering fuck all.

Let him smash the election and then be faced with 5 years of a hostile press, no ideas to change the shit show and the realisation that punching left won't answer all his problems.

It's time for both main parties to die out. Which they probably would in a decent electoral system. Which is why neither will ever change it.
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???

They have deselected 1 person who like an anti semitic tweet and 1 person who has had a serious complaint levelled against him.

What the hell should they have done?
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys said:
The conversation around healthcare is this assumption that it’s either the NHS or the US system. It isn’t.
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Unfortunately, especially given some of the people making contributions to our MPs, and given some of the statements made by certain MPs in the past, I think it very much is.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys said:
No, most European systems have universal social insurance systems that is free at the point of use. The funding model is slughtly

Singapore has a mandatory health savings that functions similar to NI but patients can withdraw that to pay for private care should they need. Australia utilises a hybrid system too and that healthcare system is a destination of a lot our clinical staff leaving the NHS!

The conversation around healthcare is this assumption that it’s either the NHS or the US system. It isn’t.
Click to expand...

Why does it need to change? Other than “other countries do this”? What is this great need for privatisation? We could just as well say they should all change to our system. It’s purely ideological.
 
Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Mate. You’ve come in here spouting nonsense conspiracy theories about how public sector workers don’t work hard cos reasons with no clue what you’re on about, which frankly is fucking insulting to anyone who has worked in the sector. Quoting dodgy sources and continually being wrong on the facts.

I’m sure it is good faith, but you’re basing your good faith opinions on sand. You claimed we need fewer managers when all the data says otherwise. You claimed the model is unsustainable without evidence. You made out the NHS is overstaffed when it’s around normal staffing levels for the industry. You continually quote nonsense right wing talking points.

Then we find out you’re getting all your information from an extreme right publication that doesn’t believe in the public sector.

As I said, believing in pure capitalism is a take, as is believing in communism, but it’s a fringe one that most won’t take seriously. Like communism.

Here is some actual research on the NHS:


Here’s the cliff notes:

View attachment 35901
View attachment 35902

The fact is the NHS is underfunded and like other public sector areas takes the strain when other services are cut.

There is no evidence that a publicly owned system is less efficient, or less cost effective than other systems.

Here’s are some international comparisons on what’s spent on healthcare. The idea we aren’t getting value for money is a nonsense.

View attachment 35903
View attachment 35904

I’m sorry but come on here with flat earthism and get treated like a flat earther.

There is no evidence the NHS is particularly bad. The constant drum beat for its privatisation is purely ideological.
Click to expand...

The NHS is underfunded, you’re right. The argument is this: is our current funding model sustainable?

We need more hospitals
We need more frontline staff
We need more equipment
Our clinical staff deserve higher wages and better working conditions

Now, this will cost a lot of money and the NHS, despite being underfunded, takes up around 40% of all government expenditure already. The money we spend here, the less money we have to find things like education and infrastructure.

To make things worse, the demand is only getting worse:

We have an obese population
We have an aging population
Record levels of migration

Therefore, all these factors and more considered, to fund the NHS ‘properly’ via central government and direct taxation would take massive increases in expenditure.

This isn’t sustainable and the political class, that is, both Labour and Conservative know this.

If your idea of fixing the NHS is to throw more money at it rather than looking at reforms, then I regret to inform you that you’re looking more like the ideologue and flat-earther. Which is a ridiculous analogy btw.
 
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Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Why does it need to change? Other than “other countries do this”? What is this great need for privatisation? We could just as well say they should all change to our system. It’s purely ideological.
Click to expand...

So the issues regarding the NHS is purely funding and more money would make all the issues go away?

Have I understood you correctly?
 
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
Mucca Mad Boys said:
The NHS is underfunded, you’re right. The argument is our current funding model sustainable?

We need more hospitals
We need more frontline staff
We need more equipment
Our clinical staff deserve higher wages and better working conditions

Now, this will cost a lot of money and the NHS, despite being underfunded, takes up around 40% of all government expenditure already. The money we spend here, the less money we have to find things like education and infrastructure.

To make things worse, the demand is only getting worse:

We have an obese population
We have an aging population
Record levels of migration

Therefore, all these factors and more considered, to fund the NHS ‘properly’ via central government and direct taxation would take massive increases in expenditure.

This isn’t sustainable and the political class, that is, both Labour and Conservative know this.

If your idea of fixing the NHS is to throw more money at it rather than looking at reforms, then I regret to inform you that you’re looking more like the ideologue and flat-earther. Which is a ridiculous analogy btw.
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Under the Tories the NHS has been subjected to reform after reform and much of the problem stems from Andrew Lansley's disastrous changes.

The NHS is not perfect by any means but most if that is due to failed Tory reform and chronic under funding. This under funding means it is constantly fire fighting rather than tackling the serious health issues we face as a country which are partly a result of austerity, like obesity. What we really to do is spend more energy on preventing disease in the population rather than just treating it. But in a chaotic Government that believes things like that are the nanny state and anyway hates poor people that was never going to happen.
 
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skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys said:
The NHS is underfunded, you’re right. The argument is our current funding model sustainable?

We need more hospitals
We need more frontline staff
We need more equipment
Our clinical staff deserve higher wages and better working conditions

Now, this will cost a lot of money and the NHS, despite being underfunded, takes up around 40% of all government expenditure already. The money we spend here, the less money we have to find things like education and infrastructure.

To make things worse, the demand is only getting worse:

We have an obese population
We have an aging population
Record levels of migration

Therefore, all these factors and more considered, to fund the NHS ‘properly’ via central government and direct taxation would take massive increases in expenditure.

This isn’t sustainable and the political class, that is, both Labour and Conservative know this.

If your idea of fixing the NHS is to throw more money at it rather than looking at reforms, then I regret to inform you that you’re looking more like the ideologue and flat-earther. Which is a ridiculous analogy btw.
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Saying it takes around 40% of government spending flatters to deceive, it’s a reflection of the state of government finances more than anything. Spending per capita is more accurate gauge, especially if you want to compare it to other countries that have more favourable outcomes of healthcare experience. Something that you hinted at earlier. Although we’re above the OECD average we’re behind the countries that do better in the EHCI. Quite a lot behind in some cases. Especially true in the healthcare lottery we seem to have adopted in this country.

As an example the OECD figures for Denmark show that they spend about $6280.00 per capita on healthcare. The UK by contrast spends $5493.00 per capita. In the UK you also have the situation where if you live in London healthcare spend per capita is about 20-25% more per capita than it is in the North East of England. Denmark also has the benefit of not having its healthcare system decimated by austerity like us.
 
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