Do you want to discuss boring politics? (70 Viewers)

[Evo1883]

Lovin the change being delivered

Minging prick he is , won't get a 2nd term at this rate

 

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[bawtryneal]

I am moving 85 jobs to Poland before corporation tax and capital gains tax increases in October. The state will lose 85 x NI and individual tax contributions
Starker and Reeves have no clue on how business will react to more taxation. Same as VAT on private education. Will burden the state further.

 

[wingy]

I am moving 85 jobs to Poland before corporation tax and capital gains tax increases in October. The state will lose 85 x NI and individual tax contributions
Starker and Reeves have no clue on how business will react to more taxation. Same as VAT on private education. Will burden the state further.

I guess we don't need you then,oh well!!
Oh it's in the EU how interesting?
RU saying like all those conglomerates who gather in Ireland and believe paying PAYE and NI across the workforce!is some badge !
Do you have some sort of footballer's lifestyle where your not content with a life of privilege where no one can deny the value of your effort?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It’s bollocks isnt it. Fucking lies so they can renege yet again on what they said before the election.

Talk us through the reason for lying

 

[MalcSB]

Talk us through the reason for lying

Pete, you aren’t stupid, despite Starmer and his cronies thinking the British public are,
They are lying to justify and give an excuse for raising taxes and hitting pensioners which is exactly what they said they wouldn’t do before the election.

 

[MalcSB]

In the past when we had a worldwide crisis leading to large amounts of government debt, we soaked the rich. Just saying.

I (and by all polling a majority of the British public) am obviously on the side of higher taxes and a working state.

But I can see the arguments on the sensible sliver of the right for a Singapore strategy.

But what we can’t do is carry on pretending to voters we can offer low taxes and a large state. Though it seems to me that the voices against higher taxes is significantly smaller but better resourced than the voices against further cutting state capacity.

The right moan about the debt, then want to spend billions on tax cuts that no one even noticed for ideological reasons. The NI cut bumped neither productivity nor government approval. The very definition of waste.

As you didn’t respond to my request to be pointed to your mythical polls, I looked myself. Only 15% are in favour of increasing taxes. Not a majority by my standards, but perhaps spinnable to the deluded by a party who gained a massive majority by only receiving the votes of 20% of the electorate.

August 2024

What tax rises would Britons support? | YouGov

Only one in six Britons think the government should increase taxes, but public make an exception for the top rate of income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax

yougov.co.uk

 

[shmmeee]

As you didn’t respond to my request to be pointed to your mythical polls, I looked myself. Only 15% are in favour of increasing taxes. Not a majority by my standards, but perhaps spinnable to the deluded by a party who gained a massive majority by only receiving the votes of 20% of the electorate.

August 2024

What tax rises would Britons support? | YouGov

Only one in six Britons think the government should increase taxes, but public make an exception for the top rate of income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax

yougov.co.uk

Hmmm. That question is a bit loaded and gives an answer at odds to most polling in the last decade.

That’s fine. You can tell them that we can’t afford to run a country any more. You want to not pay for anything then we need to cut spending. Probably starting with the pension and the NHS.

 

[MalcSB]

I am moving 85 jobs to Poland before corporation tax and capital gains tax increases in October. The state will lose 85 x NI and individual tax contributions
Starker and Reeves have no clue on how business will react to more taxation. Same as VAT on private education. Will burden the state further.

What a brilliant way to reduce immigration from the EU.

 

[MalcSB]

Hmmm. That question is a bit loaded and gives an answer at odds to most polling in the last decade.

That’s fine. You can tell them that we can’t afford to run a country any more. You want to not pay for anything then we need to cut spending. Probably starting with the pension and the NHS.

How can a question asking whether at the present time, do you think the government should look to increase taxes, keep taxes at their current level or reduce taxes be viewed as a loaded question

Another place to start would be to stop paying £8million a day, or £3 billion a year, on accommodation for illegal migrants. That might help stem the tide of young males fleeing for their lives from war torn France.

You seem to have a fascination for data from a decade ago which is of dubious relevance today.

 

[shmmeee]

How can a question asking whether at the present time, do you think the government should look to increase taxes, keep taxes at their current level or reduce taxes be viewed as a loaded question

Another place to start would be to stop paying £8million a day, or £3 billion a year, on accommodation for illegal migrants. That might help stem the tide of young males fleeing for their lives from war torn France.

You seem to have a fascination for data from a decade ago which is of dubious relevance today.

Not from a decade ago, from the last decade. It’s a loaded question because it’s contextless and as I say gives different results from all the other polls on this question.

£3bn a year is chicken feed. Need to tackle the big costs. Pension and healthcare. Especially healthcare. You want US taxes you get US services.

 

[MalcSB]

Not from a decade ago, from the last decade. It’s a loaded question because it’s contextless and as I say gives different results from all the other polls on this question.

£3bn a year is chicken feed. Need to tackle the big costs. Pension and healthcare. Especially healthcare. You want US taxes you get US services.

You must have some hellishly expensive chickens. I’m not sure how c. 15% of the mythical black hole can be dismissed so easily. To that could be added all the other costs of illegal immigration.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

As you didn’t respond to my request to be pointed to your mythical polls, I looked myself. Only 15% are in favour of increasing taxes. Not a majority by my standards, but perhaps spinnable to the deluded by a party who gained a massive majority by only receiving the votes of 20% of the electorate.

August 2024

What tax rises would Britons support? | YouGov

Only one in six Britons think the government should increase taxes, but public make an exception for the top rate of income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax

yougov.co.uk

Even in this poll, 58% support increasing the top rate of income tax, 56% support increasing corporation tax, and a plurality (41 vs 35) support increasing capital gains tax.

In other words, the British public support a redistribution of wealth from the highest earners and corporations to funding public services. That is all most in Labour actually mean when talking about tax increases. Funnily enough, nearly everyone in that poll wants lower VAT-yet hardly anyone in here is arguing for that.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Pete, you aren’t stupid, despite Starmer and his cronies thinking the British public are,
They are lying to justify and give an excuse for raising taxes and hitting pensioners which is exactly what they said they wouldn’t do before the election.

They are raising taxes to what? And they hate pensioners why?
tell me?
Cos they hate pensioners don’t be daft
Cos they want to invest in the infrastructure of the country - tell me

 

[Grendel]

Even in this poll, 58% support increasing the top rate of income tax, 56% support increasing corporation tax, and a plurality (41 vs 35) support increasing capital gains tax.

In other words, the British public support a redistribution of wealth from the highest earners and corporations to funding public services. That is all most in Labour actually mean when talking about tax increases. Funnily enough, nearly everyone in that poll wants lower VAT-yet hardly anyone in here is arguing for that.

It just shows they have zero understanding of the minimal impact these taxes have

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It just shows they have zero understanding of the minimal impact these taxes have

That isn't you calling the public stupid is it?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It just shows they have zero understanding of the minimal impact these taxes have

That’s probably true but all great societies come to a tipping point when the rich have all the wealth and the poor have nothing
Look through history
We are sleepwalking into a catastrophe
What people do wish for is fairness and sometimes that looks like envy
In fact probably what most want is hard work to mean a fulfilling and contented life
I can’t believe so many people are jealous of an asylum seeekers lot but maybe I don’t know how hard the lot is of many people in our country

 

[Grendel]

That isn't you calling the public stupid is it?

it’s buying into a narrative which is often peddled but achieves nothing

 

[Grendel]

That’s probably true but all great societies come to a tipping point when the rich have all the wealth and the poor have nothing
Look through history
We are sleepwalking into a catastrophe
What people do wish for is fairness and sometimes that looks like envy
In fact probably what most want is hard work to mean a fulfilling and contented life
I can’t believe so many people are jealous of an asylum seeekers lot but maybe I don’t know how hard the lot is of many people in our country

Emotional rambling

 

[chiefdave]

It’s bollocks isnt it. Fucking lies so they can renege yet again on what they said before the election.

Didn’t expect to start the week agreeing with Malc but here we are.

The unexpected black hole argument is complete bollocks. There was question after question about this and we were all told Reeves knew her stuff and it all added up.

Concerns that Starmer says one thing and does the other were also dismissed as just playing the a game. Wait until he’s elected and watch him shift to the left. He’s doing exactly what some people feared.

Of course the biggest problem is the only other viable option was even worse.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Even in this poll, 58% support increasing the top rate of income tax, 56% support increasing corporation tax, and a plurality (41 vs 35) support increasing capital gains tax.

In other words, the British public support a redistribution of wealth from the highest earners and corporations to funding public services. That is all most in Labour actually mean when talking about tax increases. Funnily enough, nearly everyone in that poll wants lower VAT-yet hardly anyone in here is arguing for that.

Come on, let’s be honest, it’s easy for anyone to say they want other people taxed more to pay for better services. If they were given the example of Irelands tax revenues showing they had actually increased significantly with a lower CT i wonder what the answer would be ?

FWIW I’ve said before we probably all need to pay more tax if we want better services and I’m happy enough with that. what I won’t accept is paying a load more tax and seeing others do the same and it being wasted/no improvement in services. Only time will tell though

 

[CCFCSteve]

Didn’t expect to start the week agreeing with Malc but here we are.

The unexpected black hole argument is complete bollocks. There was question after question about this and we were all told Reeves knew her stuff and it all added up.

Concerns that Starmer says one thing and does the other were also dismissed as just playing the a game. Wait until he’s elected and watch him shift to the left. He’s doing exactly what some people feared.

Of course the biggest problem is the only other viable option was even worse.

Yep, they were fully aware of most of it and have agreed to pay rises post election that has increased it

They should never have promised no rises of the main taxes pre election. The NI cut from the Tories was unfunded and should’ve been left open to reverse for starters.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

it’s buying into a narrative which is often peddled but achieves nothing

So why collect tax at all?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Come on, let’s be honest, it’s easy for anyone to say they want other people taxed more to pay for better services. If they were given the example of Irelands tax revenues showing they had actually increased significantly with a lower CT i wonder what the answer would be ?

FWIW I’ve said before we probably all need to pay more tax if we want better services and I’m happy enough with that. what I won’t accept is paying a load more tax and seeing others do the same and it being wasted/no improvement in services. Only time will tell though

I see your Ireland and raise you the tax policies of Hoover, Reagan, Bush Jnr and Trump.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I am moving 85 jobs to Poland before corporation tax and capital gains tax increases in October. The state will lose 85 x NI and individual tax contributions
Starker and Reeves have no clue on how business will react to more taxation. Same as VAT on private education. Will burden the state further.

It just sounds like your self interest rather than any real interest in the wider UK economy, be honest about it

 

[shmmeee]

It just sounds like your self interest rather than any real interest in the wider UK economy, be honest about it

Making long term business decisions based off Twitter memes is certainly a strategy.

 

[shmmeee]

We can’t be Ireland, we left the EU. If we’re a low tax haven with no access to the SM what good is that? If you want to be a Singapore you need Singapore’s trading relationships.

 

[CCFCSteve]

We can’t be Ireland, we left the EU. If we’re a low tax haven with no access to the SM what good is that? If you want to be a Singapore you need Singapore’s trading relationships.

Im not saying we should reduce ours, I’m trying to show people that the black and white comments and proposals made about tax etc are not straight forward. Asking people if they want others to pay for something that you’ll benefit from is almost comical without giving the person wider context

 

[shmmeee]

You must have some hellishly expensive chickens. I’m not sure how c. 15% of the mythical black hole can be dismissed so easily. To that could be added all the other costs of illegal immigration.

Because it’s a temporary cost because we stopped processing any asylum seekers and have just had exceptional couple of years. It won’t be £3bn in perpetuity, at absolute worst if the numbers stay the same the cost will come down with proper long term provision.

If the black hole is mythical, where are our low taxes or working services? Absolute fantasy land to pretend the books balance and everything is working well.

 

[shmmeee]

Im not saying we should reduce ours, I’m trying to show people that the black and white comments and proposals made about tax etc are not straight forward. Asking people if they want others to pay for something that you’ll benefit from is almost comical without giving the person wider context

Then give the wider context. Honestly I’d put it to a referendum at this point. Do you want the debt to go up, taxes to go up, or severe cuts to public services?

People need to stop pretending ending DEI spend or foreign aid is a serious solution. Be honest with what you’re advocating for. No, you can’t have free healthcare and a state pension that rises above inflation forever if you want to pay no tax and have no debt, sorry.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I see your Ireland and raise you the tax policies of Hoover, Reagan, Bush Jnr and Trump.

I’m not sure US is really comparable with us. If you want me to list a load of socialist tax policy failures in other countries I’m not sure it’ll be too hard for me to Google. Said about hollande yesterday for starters (who had the lowest rating of any French leader for a long time)

My point was more that the discussion is more nuanced than ‘do you want someone else to pay more tax so you can get better public services’

We are living longer, debt levels are high, productivity is struggling across the western world and the fact is everyone’s gonna have to pay more in the pot to get the services they want

 

[Grendel]

Because it’s a temporary cost because we stopped processing any asylum seekers and have just had exceptional couple of years. It won’t be £3bn in perpetuity, at absolute worst if the numbers stay the same the cost will come down with proper long term provision.

If the black hole is mythical, where are our low taxes or working services? Absolute fantasy land to pretend the books balance and everything is working well.

It’s not mythical - what’s mythical is Labour pretending it wasn’t there in the first place

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’m not sure US is really comparable with us. If you want me to list a load of socialist tax policy failures in other countries I’m not sure it’ll be too hard for me to Google. Said about hollande yesterday for starters (who had the lowest rating of any French leader for a long time)

My point was more that the discussion is more nuanced than ‘do you want someone else to pay more tax so you can get better public services’

We are living longer, debt levels are high, productivity is struggling across the western world and the fact is everyone’s gonna have to pay more in the pot to get the services they want

On the contrary, I think the US is the most comparable as it's the direction of travel the Conservatives have spent a long time trying to take us in. We have a lot of evidence regarding what happens when you offer big tax cuts to the rich and large corporations.

Engaging in a race to the bottom with Ireland, which is what would happen if we tried undercutting their rates, doesn't seem wise to me either. Collectively the western world need to be united in insisting that corporations making billions in profits pay a higher share back to the countries that have enriched them in the first place.

 

[CCFCSteve]

On the contrary, I think the US is the most comparable as it's the direction of travel the Conservatives have spent a long time trying to take us in. We have a lot of evidence regarding what happens when you offer big tax cuts to the rich and large corporations.

Engaging in a race to the bottom with Ireland, which is what would happen if we tried undercutting their rates, doesn't seem wise to me either. Collectively the western world need to be united in insisting that corporations making billions in profits pay a higher share back to the countries that have enriched them in the first place.

Don’t disagree with a lot of that. I wouldn’t cut taxes for anyone at the moment and I want big corporations to pay more. I’ve explained before the challenges of trying to do that unilaterally though

ps US has the biggest tech firms in the world and massive natural resources which is why I said it wasn’t comparable.

edit - What I would be cautious of is a load of big tax rises immediately when the economy has only started to grow and is relatively fragile. We need to encourage people to set up and invest in the U.K. If you want continued public sector payrises, improved services etc we need higher productivity and growth across the board so that’s what labour should be focussing on

 

[chiefdave]

If the black hole is mythical, where are our low taxes or working services?

This is the problem isn’t it? People see reports of the highest tax burden since the war while at the same time see every public service going to shit.

Not sure there’s many people who believe if a bit more went out of their wages each month things would get any better.

Very different to when I spoke to people while in Sweden. Nobody really had an issue with high tax because they viewed things as working. As one person put it to me, ‘we need a school or hospital it gets built, the road is damaged it’s repaired immediately’. To steal a line from Apple if people feel ‘it just works’ I suspect they aren’t too concerned about having to pay for it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Don’t disagree with a lot of that. I wouldn’t cut taxes for anyone at the moment and I want big corporations to pay more. I’ve explained before the challenges of trying to do that unilaterally though

ps US has the biggest tech firms in the world and massive natural resources which is why I said it wasn’t comparable.

It does, but taking the Trump tax cuts as the most recent example, these cost the US economy anywhere from $1.5-2 trillion, the vast majority of which was given to the top 1-2% of earners and large corporations.

Over a period of decades money has been transferred from middle and low income people to big business and higher earners. Those with the broadest shoulders are not carrying the heaviest burden despite having profited most from Western societies-that's the fundamental issue.