Do you want to discuss boring politics? (39 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

It does, but taking the Trump tax cuts as the most recent example, these cost the US economy anywhere from $1.5-2 trillion, the vast majority of which was given to the top 1-2% of earners and large corporations.

Over a period of decades money has been transferred from middle and low income people to big business and higher earners. Those with the broadest shoulders are not carrying the heaviest burden despite having profited most from Western societies-that's the fundamental issue.

Yep

 

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[shmmeee]

This is the problem isn’t it? People see reports of the highest tax burden since the war while at the same time see every public service going to shit.

Not sure there’s many people who believe if a bit more went out of their wages each month things would get any better.

Very different to when I spoke to people while in Sweden. Nobody really had an issue with high tax because they viewed things as working. As one person put it to me, ‘we need a school or hospital it gets built, the road is damaged it’s repaired immediately’. To steal a line from Apple if people feel ‘it just works’ I suspect they aren’t too concerned about having to pay for it.

This is why I’m pro debt right now. We are so far behind most developed countries on so much I think you’ve got to actually deliver before asking for cash now. Too many broken promises. It’s all just wishy washy scaredy cat crap and has been since 2008. The right were scared to take on the conservatives who like regulation and public services the left won’t take on the liberals who insist bean counting is the be all and end all of politics. The media relentlessly attacks anyone who suggests spending more or cutting services. Somethings got to give before anyone with the ability to leaves for a functioning state or at least economic opportunity.

 

[shmmeee]

Don’t disagree with a lot of that. I wouldn’t cut taxes for anyone at the moment and I want big corporations to pay more. I’ve explained before the challenges of trying to do that unilaterally though

ps US has the biggest tech firms in the world and massive natural resources which is why I said it wasn’t comparable.

edit - What I would be cautious of is a load of big tax rises immediately when the economy has only started to grow and is relatively fragile. We need to encourage people to set up and invest in the U.K. If you want continued public sector payrises, improved services etc we need higher productivity and growth across the board so that’s what labour should be focussing on

We’ve literally been having the “can’t do it unilaterally tho” debate since 2008 Steve. It’s like the climate debate before solar basically solved it. Endless hand wringing that doing anything might have unintended consequences while suffering the consequences of doing nothing.

 

[MalcSB]

Even in this poll, 58% support increasing the top rate of income tax, 56% support increasing corporation tax, and a plurality (41 vs 35) support increasing capital gains tax.

In other words, the British public support a redistribution of wealth from the highest earners and corporations to funding public services. That is all most in Labour actually mean when talking about tax increases. Funnily enough, nearly everyone in that poll wants lower VAT-yet hardly anyone in here is arguing for that.

I am really not sure how if only 15% suuport increasing taxes, 58% can then support increasing the top rate of tax etc. I cam see how 58% of the 15% might, or how - if tax rises were inevitable - 58% of the total would support increasing the top rate.
You have to take the answers in the order the questions were asked.

 

[CCFCSteve]

We’ve literally been having the “can’t do it unilaterally tho” debate since 2008 Steve. It’s like the climate debate before solar basically solved it. Endless hand wringing that doing anything might have unintended consequences while suffering the consequences of doing nothing.

However much I’ve tried I’ve not been able to get G7 together to come to an agreement

Ps I’d imagine US is the main blocker to an international tax agreement

 

[MalcSB]

They are raising taxes to what? And they hate pensioners why?
tell me?
Cos they hate pensioners don’t be daft
Cos they want to invest in the infrastructure of the country - tell me

We are being softened up for October. I didnt say they hate pensioners but they are an easy target. Means testing the winter fuel allowance and scrapping the social care cap are not the things you would expect a Labour government to do. Paying train drivers £69,000 p.a. for a four day week (Sundays optional) is precisely what up you wou” expect a Labour government to do, funding it by taxation and hitting pensioners.

Thats not investing in infrastructure.

 

[MalcSB]

Didn’t expect to start the week agreeing with Malc but here we are.

The unexpected black hole argument is complete bollocks. There was question after question about this and we were all told Reeves knew her stuff and it all added up.

Concerns that Starmer says one thing and does the other were also dismissed as just playing the a game. Wait until he’s elected and watch him shift to the left. He’s doing exactly what some people feared.

Of course the biggest problem is the only other viable option was even worse.

The Ming vase is well and truly shattered.

 

[MalcSB]

We’ve literally been having the “can’t do it unilaterally tho” debate since 2008 Steve. It’s like the climate debate before solar basically solved it. Endless hand wringing that doing anything might have unintended consequences while suffering the consequences of doing nothing.

If solar has basically solved it, where are our energy bill savings?

Hang on a minute, the energy bills are going up by 10% from October

 

[MalcSB]

However much I’ve tried I’ve not been able to get G7 together to come to an agreement

Ps I’d imagine US is the main blocker to an international tax agreement

Disappointing

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

If solar has basically solved it, where are our energy bill savings?

Hang on a minute, the energy bills are going up by 10% from October

Because they're linked to fossil fuel cost. And energy companies look for every opportunity to fleece consumers so they can have bigger dividends for shareholders. Price of oil etc goes down it takes a while for that to pass through because 'companies are still using up fuel bought at the higher price' Price goes up though and suddenly price they paid doesn't matter and bills go up immediately.

Trust me, if solar and other renewables had been invested in when they should have been and their price was truly free market you wouldn't be complaining about your bills.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We are being softened up for October. I didnt say they hate pensioners but they are an easy target. Means testing the winter fuel allowance and scrapping the social care cap are not the things you would expect a Labour government to do. Paying train drivers £69,000 p.a. for a four day week (Sundays optional) is precisely what up you wou” expect a Labour government to do, funding it by taxation and hitting pensioners.

Thats not investing in infrastructure.

Pensioners are never an easy political target. If there's one group you can expect lots to vote and complain when they don't get what they want it's pensioners. How many other parts of the welfare budget have maintained their value compared to the pension? You don't get a triple lock on child benefit or UC.

 

[shmmeee]

If solar has basically solved it, where are our energy bill savings?

Hang on a minute, the energy bills are going up by 10% from October

We have to actually build the stuff. But the idea the answer to climate change is anything other than technological progress is thankfully dead.

 

[MalcSB]

Pensioners are never an easy political target. If there's one group you can expect lots to vote and complain when they don't get what they want it's pensioners. How many other parts of the welfare budget have maintained their value compared to the pension? You don't get a triple lock on child benefit or UC.

Pensioners are a damn sight easier target than, say, train drivers.

 

[Evo1883]

I sure do hope fuhrer keir will look to impose tough sentences and look to ban the carnival in future

 

[shmmeee]

I sure do hope fuhrer keir will look to impose tough sentences and look to ban the carnival in future

Personally I don’t like banning one of the few public festivals this country has, but agree sentences should be tough and something has to be done longer term to make it safe. Can we send the CBS SAG over to advise?

What’s the story behind these stabbings? Gang related? Something else?

 

[Grendel]

Personally I don’t like banning one of the few public festivals this country has, but agree sentences should be tough and something has to be done longer term to make it safe. Can we send the CBS SAG over to advise?

What’s the story behind these stabbings? Gang related? Something else?

One was a mother who was with her child

 

[Evo1883]

Starmer frankly suggesting the budget will be painful ..

Problem for him is if normal people see their income dwindle then it will not end well for him long term .

Feels like we've just voted in the tories again

 

[shmmeee]

Starmer frankly suggesting the budget will be painful ..

Problem for him is if normal people see their income dwindle then it will not end well for him long term .

Feels like we've just voted in the tories again

One of two things for me: either they’ve genuinely not got an idea what to do other than balance the books and hope for the best, or they think get all the bad stuff out the way early while there’s no opposition and an election is years away. But does feel like if it’s the latter they’ve misjudged just how much more shite the public can take. Lets see what they do when recess is over, but needs something other than “the beatings will continue until morale improves”.

 

[fernandopartridge]

How on earth does the government think restricting the supply of money into the private sector is going to support 'growth'? I just do not get it.

It's all driven by the household budget analogy, but even if you were operating on 'household budget' terms many of the decisions are just nonsensical.

 

[CCFCSteve]

How on earth does the government think restricting the supply of money into the private sector is going to support 'growth'? I just do not get it.

It's all driven by the household budget analogy, but even if you were operating on 'household budget' terms many of the decisions are just nonsensical.

He might just be managing expectations pre budget, will have to wait and see

As I’ve said before with the economy turning, inflations now on a more stable footing and BoE are likely to continue to cut rates in the short to medium term, so I think anything drastic that might damage growth/investment would be a mistake. The problem for Labour is they want to make the tough calls now to pin blame on Tories (understandable) but on the flip side, should want to talk up economy and encourage growth/investment. Will be interesting to see which of these wins

I also can’t see the OBR pushing back too much on borrowing for investment/ infrastructure projects so hope these don’t get sidelined. The country needs some hope as well as stability

 

[MalcSB]

I sure do hope fuhrer keir will look to impose tough sentences and look to ban the carnival in future

Two tier policing?

 

[MalcSB]

One of two things for me: either they’ve genuinely not got an idea what to do other than balance the books and hope for the best, or they think get all the bad stuff out the way early while there’s no opposition and an election is years away. But does feel like if it’s the latter they’ve misjudged just how much more shite the public can take. Let’s see what they do when recess is over, but needs something other than “the beatings will continue until morale improves”.

You have hit the nail on the head with the latter option. Problem is that it will be difficult to ensure that the general economic indicators are better than inherited by the time of the next election.

 

[MalcSB]

He might just be managing expectations pre budget, will have to wait and see

As I’ve said before with the economy turning, inflations now on a more stable footing and BoE are likely to continue to cut rates in the short to medium term, so I think anything drastic that might damage growth/investment would be a mistake. The problem for Labour is they want to make the tough calls now to pin blame on Tories (understandable) but on the flip side, should want to talk up economy and encourage growth/investment. Will be interesting to see which of these wins

I also can’t see the OBR pushing back too much on borrowing for investment/ infrastructure projects so hope these don’t get sidelined. The country needs some hope as well as stability

Of course it’s expectation management, as are the lies about the state of the economy, I expect the real surprises and shocks have been that the indicators published since the election and from the end of Tory government have been unexpectedly good. Makes it so much harder to blame the Tories without Telling enormous porkies,

 

[fernandopartridge]

You have hit the nail on the head with the latter option. Problem is that it will be difficult to ensure that the general economic indicators are better than inherited by the time of the next election.

I think the public are sick of hearing about general economic indicators which are in no way representative of their lived experience. We had 'growth' during quite a few of the Tory years but people were at best no better off. It cannot continue.

 

[fernandopartridge]

He might just be managing expectations pre budget, will have to wait and see

As I’ve said before with the economy turning, inflations now on a more stable footing and BoE are likely to continue to cut rates in the short to medium term, so I think anything drastic that might damage growth/investment would be a mistake. The problem for Labour is they want to make the tough calls now to pin blame on Tories (understandable) but on the flip side, should want to talk up economy and encourage growth/investment. Will be interesting to see which of these wins

I also can’t see the OBR pushing back too much on borrowing for investment/ infrastructure projects so hope these don’t get sidelined. The country needs some hope as well as stability

Steve, pre-election it was "he's only saying he's going to do more austerity to keep the right wing press on side".... he is what he is

 

[MalcSB]

I think the public are sick of hearing about general economic indicators which are in no way representative of their lived experience. We had 'growth' during quite a few of the Tory years but people were at best no better off. It cannot continue.

I can only imagine that peoples lived experiences would be worse with bad general economic indicators. We will shortly see whether that proves correct.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

A lot of sense from the Green Party leader here ...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He might just be managing expectations pre budget, will have to wait and see

As I’ve said before with the economy turning, inflations now on a more stable footing and BoE are likely to continue to cut rates in the short to medium term, so I think anything drastic that might damage growth/investment would be a mistake. The problem for Labour is they want to make the tough calls now to pin blame on Tories (understandable) but on the flip side, should want to talk up economy and encourage growth/investment. Will be interesting to see which of these wins

I also can’t see the OBR pushing back too much on borrowing for investment/ infrastructure projects so hope these don’t get sidelined. The country needs some hope as well as stability

The optics of deciding to hit pensioners’ fuel allowance is just really, really bad Steve. Knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It's just so disingenuous really isn't it? "The government borrowed £5bn more than expected" - it's a massive figure to you and I but it actually 0.41% of government spending in a year.

Starmer and his fellow nasal passage Reeves take voters to be as stupid as the lobby press

 

[fernandopartridge]

I can only imagine that peoples lived experiences would be worse with bad general economic indicators. We will shortly see whether that proves correct.

Fair point - but I suppose my point is, people don't want to be gas-lit about the improving economy unless it makes a tangible improvement to their own circumstances.

 

[MalcSB]

Fair point - but I suppose my point is, people don't want to be gas-lit about the improving economy unless it makes a tangible improvement to their own circumstances.

We are currently being gas lit by Starmer and Reeves.

 

[fernandopartridge]

We are currently being gas lit by Starmer and Reeves.

It's renewable lit surely

 

[MalcSB]

It's renewable lit surely

Apparently not yet, the renewables need building first!

 

[Ian1779]

We are currently being gas lit by Starmer and Reeves.

It’s what he was always going to do. I can’t believe anyone thought it would be different.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It’s what he was always going to do. I can’t believe anyone thought it would be different.

They'll play the never never through the entire parliament before making some promises during the next election campaign