No it isn't.
Email to Sport England re Higgs application (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter armybike
- Start date
No it isn't.
You initially said they'd bribed/donated money.
You've now changed it to 'put money into local netball'.
So which one is it?
Just to confirm, as I said, they're not the same thing.
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
so, we aren't to worry about netball any more as wasps have it covered ?
Orca
Well-Known Member
I know you didn't ask me, but as I started this little sidebar, I will answer.
The club's (and owner's) current contribution to the city and it's people is not massive. They are the custodians of the name CCFC and they maintain a football team that we are all fans of (a not insignificant business, 125 full-time staff and 289 part-time stewards). SBITC has the club's nickname and badge and uses facilities and the time of CCFC players and staff to promote their activities. As I have mentioned, the club's actual contribution costs them a very small amount of time and space, but no actual hard cash. In addition to this the club has funded over £600k for the running of the academy, in excess of the £512k required to maintain Category 2 status.
There may well be other things but at the moment I can't recall a single piece of information about goodwill, charitable giving or community engagement that wasn't done through or by SBITC (who aren't funded in any way by CCFC).
Notwithstanding that, we committed to working more closely with local businesses in January 2015, but only joined the C&W chamber of commerce in April 2016. The C&W chamber website isn't up to much, but having looked at London's, they charge £2,500 per annum, so there's an investment of sorts there.
What should they do? More kids engagement, not necessarily through SBITC, but by improving JSBs. At the moment it's £25 for a season, but you get discounted tickets (£1 each). Personally, I'd do it differently and make membership free or £1 and then charge a little bit more for a ticket. Go to every primary school and give every kid a JSB pack/brochure and one free ticket. Get the fans young. Maybe they're already doing this, it's difficult to know for sure, but certainly a free JSB, or even free for 5 games wouldn't hurt and probably won't cost much.
What else? There's a litany of unkept promises and as one of the stated aims is to 'build trust with the supporters', the club could come clean about what has gone before and then try and start again with a clean slate. I don't know many fans who can trust the current owners or board, so there are many bridges to build here. That said, there are many with long memories and whilst the owners continue with court action, maybe this is a difficult step.
I know the club doesn't have a pot to piss in, so I guess any dreams of capital investment in new facilities (either the 'integrated academy and first team facility' or the mythical new stadium) will remain just dreams. Again, they could just be honest about these things and move on. SISU still own Ryton (the club don't own it, SISU do) so they could maybe put in some plans to develop the academy there? Again, this would require investment, which I don't suspect SISU will want to pay for and CCFC don't have much in the way of credit facilities.
I out of ideas for now and it's late. I'm all ears if anyone has any more.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
It's in the PFA rules that the players have to community engagement
So that is not optional.
So effectively unkess anybody knows any different we are talking about providing office space.
Which is fine unless you want to make out you are a pillar of the community?
So that is not optional.
So effectively unkess anybody knows any different we are talking about providing office space.
Which is fine unless you want to make out you are a pillar of the community?
Orca
Well-Known Member
Don't forget they get space in the programme as well.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Looks like they covered the all bases then.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
I like the JSB idea, certainly worth a try, but you'd have to let Mum or Dad come too, maybe they should have a single discount ticket in the package to go with the free JSB ticket which makes it easy for a parent who hasn't been before and does not want to fart around ordering their own ticket, something like £10 on the gate with all free seats being issued in a block (you sit where you're allocated).
Actually ARVO own Ryton don't they (SISU is a misnomer I think they dropped out and left the shambles with lots of worthless shares that may show a return if they're very lucky). As I understand it ongoing investment is no longer SISU it is provided by ARVO, who have a preferential charge on all assets. I get the impression it is somewhat of a personal mission for Joy not to lose money on the ARVO money, because failure will adversely affect her reputation.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
It is a separate investment fund, I suspect it is a sub set of original investors who are still in and maybe a few others, but beneficial ownership is hidden so your guess is as good as mine.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/fears-grow-over-coventry-city-3025250
This any help?
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/OC371045/officers
Orca
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I got my info from here (https://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordp...try-city-and-sisu-capital-60-million-in-debt/). Just one guy's opinion though I guess.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Not sure about that blog. For some reason it was quite short lived. His contract as a lifetime fan must've ended.
Orca
Well-Known Member
His name is Richard Baskott and having had a quick poke around, he posted on here as @Skybluesquirrel. Last post November 2014.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
ARVO do not own Ryton - they have charge over it to help "secure" the loans they have provided. Ryton remains owned by Otium who acquired it off CCFC Holdings Ltd. Interesting when you look at the value of the security for the ARVO loans, it would seem that a private investor would lend significant amounts of money that is not fully secured and with no real prospect of the interest being paid.
ARVO is not a subsidiary of SISU (see the SISU Capital accounts filed at Companies House). SISU have I believe at least a management stake in ARVO and act as its managing agents as evidenced by Seppala's signature on court docs etc submitted by ARVO
who the investors are in ARVO no one really knows. It is registered in the Cayman Isles. Are the original investors from 2008 still invested? I would suggest not. How big is ARVO - no way of telling as no filed information
Is there any on going investment? or is it just accumulated debt that is moved around and the interest charged but unable to be paid converted in to shares?
the website mentioned ceased to be active shortly after a dispute the author had with Les Reid
ARVO is not a subsidiary of SISU (see the SISU Capital accounts filed at Companies House). SISU have I believe at least a management stake in ARVO and act as its managing agents as evidenced by Seppala's signature on court docs etc submitted by ARVO
who the investors are in ARVO no one really knows. It is registered in the Cayman Isles. Are the original investors from 2008 still invested? I would suggest not. How big is ARVO - no way of telling as no filed information
Is there any on going investment? or is it just accumulated debt that is moved around and the interest charged but unable to be paid converted in to shares?
the website mentioned ceased to be active shortly after a dispute the author had with Les Reid
Orca
Well-Known Member
Ownership and size of stake in ARVO don't appear to be easy pieces of information to get hold of, for obvious reasons.
However, the lines below are directly from the Land Registry deeds to the Ryton site.
"(24.01.2014) Proprietor: Arvo Master Fund Limited (incorporated in Cayman Islands) of 89 Nexus Way, Grand Cayman, KH1 9007 Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands and care of Justin Fizimmons SISU Capital Limited, 1 Red Place, London W1K 6PL.". So is that an indication of the management stake? Your guess is as good as mine. It does suggest to me that a level of control over ARVO is still undertaken by SISU and on the balance sheets, are all the preferential shares and debt not owned by SISU also?
The London address is also listed as the address for Otium in the same document.
However, the lines below are directly from the Land Registry deeds to the Ryton site.
"(24.01.2014) Proprietor: Arvo Master Fund Limited (incorporated in Cayman Islands) of 89 Nexus Way, Grand Cayman, KH1 9007 Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands and care of Justin Fizimmons SISU Capital Limited, 1 Red Place, London W1K 6PL.". So is that an indication of the management stake? Your guess is as good as mine. It does suggest to me that a level of control over ARVO is still undertaken by SISU and on the balance sheets, are all the preferential shares and debt not owned by SISU also?
The London address is also listed as the address for Otium in the same document.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Is that entry under title or under charges? Because the 2015 Otium accounts include Otium as owning the freehold. The person who pulls all the strings I believe is Seppala
Preferential shares are owned by ARVO and SBS&L. The ordinary shares in SBS&L are owned by Sconset ( ) and L Brody
Registered office of SBS&L and SISU Capital is now 96 Kensington High Street London W8 4SG on 13 November 2015
From Companies House documents. Funds A to E were the original investors in SBS&L
SISU group members
Preferential shares are owned by ARVO and SBS&L. The ordinary shares in SBS&L are owned by Sconset ( ) and L Brody
Registered office of SBS&L and SISU Capital is now 96 Kensington High Street London W8 4SG on 13 November 2015
From Companies House documents. Funds A to E were the original investors in SBS&L
SISU group members
Attachments
Last edited:
Orca
Well-Known Member
Under charges. Document attached. You'll definitely make more sense of it than me.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Just briefly looked at this
Interesting, seems that ARVO only took a specific charge in January 2014 - I am assuming that charges history is listed by property not by ownership. I assume that ARVO was relying on a more general charge before that, when it took the first charge in 2012 that lists Ryton as a CCFC H Ltd asset
The other interesting thing was that the proprietor is listed in the history on the land registry document as Coventry City Football Club Limited and there is no evidence of the transfer of the property to CCFC Holdings Limited. But this isn't the full record though
Interesting, seems that ARVO only took a specific charge in January 2014 - I am assuming that charges history is listed by property not by ownership. I assume that ARVO was relying on a more general charge before that, when it took the first charge in 2012 that lists Ryton as a CCFC H Ltd asset
The other interesting thing was that the proprietor is listed in the history on the land registry document as Coventry City Football Club Limited and there is no evidence of the transfer of the property to CCFC Holdings Limited. But this isn't the full record though
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
A squirrel in sheep's clothing. Knew it.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
The registered office of SBITC is actually the Ricoh.
From memory (so I might be wrong) I think ACL for a time used to let them use some offices at the Ricoh, not sure about the cost but think it might have been for free
Orca
Well-Known Member
The SBITC site still has their address there as well. Seems strange that given the accounts state that CCFC provide the facilities, but we don't use anywhere at the Ricoh day to day. I do remember seeing Dave Busst at the Butts ticket office regularly so I'd suggest that's the space used. Still odd though.
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Orca
Well-Known Member
The phone number listed for Busst starts 02476 786xxx which corresponds with other Ricoh Arena phone numbers. The Butts has a completely different set of numbers. So if they are still based at the Ricoh and CCFC don't rent any space there who's paying for the office space?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't they have just been using the offices paid for by the club, when we were paying £1.3m rent and had the shop and a couple of offices at the Ricoh?
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Orca
Well-Known Member
No, this is from the most recent accounts. Year ending Dec 2014. The website, I assume, is also up to date
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I was under the impression they were based at ryton now. No mention of acl gifting them premises, and just because the Ricoh is listed as the business address does not mean that they don't use ryton.
Keep on your crusade though, you're doing a sterling job
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Orca
Well-Known Member
Agreed and no-one has ever mentioned ACL in relation to them before. @oddskyblue58 spotted the address and I guess he, like me, found it strange.
I've forwarded a further email to Sport England, but on this occasion directly to the Planning Manager James Morris -
"Your ref: WM/COV/2016/42826/S
App Ref: FUL/2016/1458
Site: Allard Way Coventry CV3 1HW
Proposal: Extension to the Alan Higgs Centre
Mr Morris,
I am aware that Sport England has been consulted regarding the above application and at this stage has not offered a full response, as you are in consultation with parties from Coventry City Council’s Leisure and Culture Department and the relevant National Governing Bodies.
However, I wish to bring the below information to your attention, so that a fully rounded assessment can be made during the completion of the consultation process.
Coventry City Football Club's (CCFC) Academy currently uses the facilities at the Alan Higgs Centre for their training and development and this agreement is set to end in June 2017.
The new proposed development has not been designed with a view to accommodate the continued use of the facility by the CCFC Academy.
Whilst Wasps have offered limited access to some of the facilities, should the application be successful, this appears to be more of a shoe-horning exercise with the aim of merely trying to pacify the situation, rather than offering a reasonable and workable solution for the Academy.
CCFC are facing a situation where they may be forced to bring the Academy to an end and this would not only take away a vitally important source of players for the club, but also remove a facility for local children to participate in sports under the guidance of highly qualified and trained staff.
Can any assistance be provided by Sport England to ensure the academy remains at this location on a long term basis, which it is evident they are willing to finance taking into account the current arrangement.
If required, would it be possible for Sport England to mediate between Wasps and CCFC to find a workable but most importantly realistic solution to allow both clubs to take advantage of this site?
Your assistance would be greatly appreciated and please confirm receipt of this correspondence."
"Your ref: WM/COV/2016/42826/S
App Ref: FUL/2016/1458
Site: Allard Way Coventry CV3 1HW
Proposal: Extension to the Alan Higgs Centre
Mr Morris,
I am aware that Sport England has been consulted regarding the above application and at this stage has not offered a full response, as you are in consultation with parties from Coventry City Council’s Leisure and Culture Department and the relevant National Governing Bodies.
However, I wish to bring the below information to your attention, so that a fully rounded assessment can be made during the completion of the consultation process.
Coventry City Football Club's (CCFC) Academy currently uses the facilities at the Alan Higgs Centre for their training and development and this agreement is set to end in June 2017.
The new proposed development has not been designed with a view to accommodate the continued use of the facility by the CCFC Academy.
Whilst Wasps have offered limited access to some of the facilities, should the application be successful, this appears to be more of a shoe-horning exercise with the aim of merely trying to pacify the situation, rather than offering a reasonable and workable solution for the Academy.
CCFC are facing a situation where they may be forced to bring the Academy to an end and this would not only take away a vitally important source of players for the club, but also remove a facility for local children to participate in sports under the guidance of highly qualified and trained staff.
Can any assistance be provided by Sport England to ensure the academy remains at this location on a long term basis, which it is evident they are willing to finance taking into account the current arrangement.
If required, would it be possible for Sport England to mediate between Wasps and CCFC to find a workable but most importantly realistic solution to allow both clubs to take advantage of this site?
Your assistance would be greatly appreciated and please confirm receipt of this correspondence."
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Harsh!
SlowerThanPlatt
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the old(ish) bump but couldn't find a more up to date thread on this matter.
The main pitch at the Alan Higgs Centre is currently having maintenance done to it and rugby posts are now up at either end
The main pitch at the Alan Higgs Centre is currently having maintenance done to it and rugby posts are now up at either end
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
They should be concentrating on the pitch at The Ricoh first