Faith schools (1 Viewer)

[Otis]

Ban them?

I have never been keen on them anyway to be honest, but stuff that's been in the news lately and the kind of things revealed tonight on C4's Dispatches is most worrying.

Accusations of Christmas not being celebrated, Muslim boys being told that a wife must always consent to sex, girls not being allowed to do PE because only a male teacher was present, clapping being frowned upon (filmatic evidence of an undercover reporter in a school where clapping wasn't tolerated, with one pupil actually being told off for clapping), a reluctance to play music and ultra orthodox Jewish schools in London where exam questions about evolution were scratched out and pupils are only taught Yiddish ( a boy interviewed saying even though he was born here he can't speak English ane has never heard of the words science and evolution.)

The government actually admitted that they are breaking the law and have known for some time too.

Can't believe this could all be happening here in this country. Christian schools too teaching that evolution is a lie and only teaching creationism.

If faith schools are not to be banned then they need to be under much stricter government control with regular inspection.

Thoughts?

 

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[Nick]

Sounds a bit like brainwashing to me!

I do like the thought of normal schools where all kids get to mix with other races and religions and learning about all different things and being a bit more open to the world. Surely if you stick all the Muslim kids in one school, all of the Catholics in another, all of the Jews in the other they will leave school with their own friends who are all the same and never really go outside of "what they know".

 

[Otis]

Sounds a bit like brainwashing to me!

I do like the thought of normal schools where all kids get to mix with other races and religions and learning about all different things and being a bit more open to the world. Surely if you stick all the Muslim kids in one school, all of the Catholics in another, all of the Jews in the other they will leave school with their own friends who are all the same and never really go outside of "what they know".

Yep. Exactly my thoughts.

Surely we need more integration and less segregation don't we?

 

[Nick]

Yep. Exactly my thoughts.

Surely we need more integration and less segregation don't we?

Yep, it is all the "we can't talk to them because they aren't this or aren't that" that causes issues.

 

[Otis]

Well that was precisely what was being said in Dispatches this evening.

Ultra orthodox Jewish kids were told that the outside world was bad and their way was the only way. Total segregation. Switched off from the outside world.

Some kids were going to these ultra schools at 7 in the morning and not leaving until 10 at night. It is brainwashing for sure.

 

[Grendel]

Most faith schools actually are private schools through the back door. They are a way of opting away from the failed comprehensive drudgery but still having a selected education. Blue coats almost competes with the independent schools in Coventry now.

Most faith schools are C of E and most are there so the political elite can pretend they favour state education when in truth they loath it. Check the education received by the children of the Bastion of the Left John "3 houses" Cruddas received.

I know most people will shudder at the mention of his name but Peter Hitchen wrote an excellent book regarding political education strategy. Basically preserve the pollitical elite and subvert the masses. The amount of politicians who avoid the state system by such means is truly shocking.

 

[rob9872]

Almost as bad as welsh speaking schools :-D

 

[Colonel Mustard]

They should be banned, of course. Kids deserve a secular education free of voodoo. IIRC, Richard Dawkins did a TV series a few years back where he found a majority of kids in a class believed that the world was created by a supreme being. He took them on a field trip to show them fossils and other assorted evidence of the earth's gradual development, but even after that the kids' minds were unchanged. With hardcoded blind spots like that, it's no wonder that crackpot conspiracy theories, psychics, climate change denial et al have such mileage.

 

[Otis]

It's shocking that children born in this country are growing up without speaking English and only being taught creationism in schools.

Really shocking.

 

[TheRoyalScam]

Organized religion has always preyed on schools because children are malleable and vulnerable to religious propaganda - in reality religion should have no place in the education system at all.

I love Dawkins' argument to the statement: 'This is a Jewish/Muslim/Christian/similar religious nonsense child'...

Dawkins: 'This is a child born to Jewish/Muslim/Christian/similar religious nonsense parents which has the human right to decide its own beliefs/philosophy'.

Mrs Scam was raised a Catholic but now is a humanist. Scam Jnr (History undergraduate/socialist/humanist) and Miss Scamlicious (in her gap year before Philosophy/Ethics/English degree) were brought up with love in a humanist environment. If either of them found a religion/philosophy they wanted to follow then they could follow that religion/philosophy - however they are both humanists by reason and choice - my daughter enjoyed her Philosophy/Ethics A level - everybody is entitled to a sound education and understanding of the history of the World religions/philosophies, yet even today 'faith' schools are teaching nonsense like 'creationism'.

 

[Otis]

I have no problem with schools discussing creationism, but to teach it exclusively and to dismiss evolution calling it a lie or not even mentioning it at all, as was the case at this Jewish school, is just plain wrong.

The teenage boy they interviewed last night didn't even understand the word 'evolution' and had never even heard the word before. He had never heard the word 'science' either

 

[Otis]

And right here right now we could be producing a whole new breed of extremists, who when they reach adulthood and see the true Britain, are going to become to loathe it and all it stands for, because it will be against the very grain of what they have been taught all their lives.

Everything they have been told is wrong is going to be there right before their eyes every day and they are going to hate the country they were born in and grew up in.

The most galling thing in this is the fact the government have known about this illegal schools for some years and have done nothing about it.

 

[Otis]

Many of these ultra orthodox Jewish schools are in Hackney and worryingly, this is the local authority's response to last nights programme;

“Our concerns about these schools date back many years, and we’ve been working with the DfE and Ofsted to try and engage with them, ensuring they provide the education and care to which all our children have the right. Councils’ powers in these situations are very limited; we have no powers of enforcement in relation to private education arrangements.'

'Yeshivas are established by the Charedi community to educate their boys in their traditions and beliefs. Like all independent schools, they are not required to follow the national curriculum.'

 

[blueflint]

Sounds a bit like brainwashing to me!

I do like the thought of normal schools where all kids get to mix with other races and religions and learning about all different things and being a bit more open to the world. Surely if you stick all the Muslim kids in one school, all of the Catholics in another, all of the Jews in the other they will leave school with their own friends who are all the same and never really go outside of "what they know".

well thats a first agreeing with you nick

 

[Otis]

There seems to be more and more independant schools sprouting up and if more schools start following the above examples we are going to have more and more segregation and more and more distrust and animosity.

I know there has been a lot of talk of British values, of late but it is also about a British way of life and traditions too. Clapping and applauding and cheering is part of British life and culture and entrenched in British culture. Tombola's and raffles and bingo are part of British culture. It is alleged that some schools won't have raffles because it is seen as a form of gambling. Now we hear of clapping being frowned upon and a reluctance to play music in some schools.

To me this is a complete and utter madness.

This needs drastic measures being taken, a clamping down and if there are no rules and laws governing independant schools following the curriculum, then laws need to be drawn up.

I know some will talk of freedom of speech, but surely you cannot be allowed to teach children a lie and to be so selective in what schools will and won't educate children upon.

At this one Jewish school they have been teaching a total distrust of the world outside their faith.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Faith schools shouldn't be banned......but they certainly should NOT be funded by the state.

If a bunch of religious loons from any persuasion want to indoctrinate their offspring with poisonous bullshit, got for it, but pay for it yourselves...... don't expect the taxpayer to pay for this mind pollution.

All state schools in the UK should be secular.

This would also help to reduce bias in academic achievement as the sharp-elbowed middle classes wouldn't have to go through the charade of pretending to worship some bearded-god-bollocks just to get their kiddies into a "better" school.

 

[Otis]

Faith schools shouldn't be banned......but they certainly should NOT be funded by the state.

If a bunch of religious loons from any persuasion want to indoctrinate their offspring with poisonous bullshit, got for it, but pay for it yourselves...... don't expect the taxpayer to pay for this mind pollution.

All state schools in the UK should be secular.

This would also help to reduce bias in academic achievement as the sharp-elbowed middle classes wouldn't have to go through the charade of pretending to worship some bearded-god-bollocks just to get their kiddies into a "better" school.

These ultra orthodox schools are self funded. If you saw the programme last night you would have seen that these 'schools' weren't even proper schools. 100 'pupils' were seen just going into a normal, everyday house. It was clearly operating as a school though. They were using disused old factories and warehouses, with many looking distinctly unsafe. Secret footage showed 50 children crammed into a small 'classroom.' These schools were illegal.

I would agree with you that we can't do anything about parents indoctinating their children with poisionous bullshit, but the portrayal of these 'institutions' as schools gives a whole credence in what they are doing, as they are clearly perceived as schools. Your parents' opinion is just that, an opinion, but schools hold a much higher authority and credibility and if 'teachers' are teaching you poisonous bullshit then that holds a lot more credibility for a child.

Can't accept the 'let them go for it if that's what they want to do stance. What we might well be creating here is children who may well resort to extremism and violence against their own country by the time they reach adulthood. Don't curb this and we could end up with some kind of civil war if we're not careful.

Freedom of speech cannot be absolute. Organisations simply cannot be allowed to promote hatred or violence against other groups of people. These children are being taught lies and to also manifest a total distrust of everyone outside their own religious group.

 

[duffer]

Erm... I can see the point here, but we've go to watch that we don't get all Daily Mail about it.

The vast majority of faith schools don't go for this sort of stupidity - there's about a million kids in CofE schools, and an awful lot in other faith schools that won't be learning that creationism is reality or that believers in other Gods (or no God) are inherently wrong or evil. Most of my in-laws went to Catholic schools, and they don't seem have turned out to be bomb-throwing zealots, or door-knocking God botherers. My lack of faith (at least in an organised sense, despite going to mostly CofE schools) doesn't seem to bother them, and my kids (who also go to a Catholic school) get the benefit of my cyncism too.

I'd have no great issue with the state stepping in and taking over church schools if they thought they could do a better job. However, that might mean spending a bit more money on education - stuff like rebuilding crumbling schools. and maybe developing some greater respect for what teachers have to do and what they should be paid. I'm guessing everyone here is right behind that too, no?

Finally, don't make the mistake from watching one TV programme that Judaism is in some way anti-science. That's simply not true. For evidence, google "Jewish Scientists" and see what pops up.

 

[Otis]

Erm... I can see the point here, but we've go to watch that we don't get all Daily Mail about it.

The vast majority of faith schools don't go for this sort of stupidity - there's about a million kids in CofE schools, and an awful lot in other faith schools that won't be learning that creationism is reality or that believers in other Gods (or no God) are inherently wrong or evil. Most of my in-laws went to Catholic schools, and they don't seem have turned out to be bomb-throwing zealots, or door-knocking God botherers. My lack of faith (at least in an organised sense, despite going to mostly CofE schools) doesn't seem to bother them, and my kids (who also go to a Catholic school) get the benefit of my cyncism too.

I'd have no great issue with the state stepping in and taking over church schools if they thought they could do a better job. However, that might mean spending a bit more money on education - stuff like rebuilding crumbling schools. and maybe developing some greater respect for what teachers have to do and what they should be paid. I'm guessing everyone here is right behind that too, no?

Finally, don't make the mistake from watching one TV programme that Judaism is in some way anti-science. That's simply not true. For evidence, google "Jewish Scientists" and see what pops up.

I won't go all Daily Mail on you, trust me, as I detest that paper with a passion.

You have to remember here this wasn't Jewish schools, it was ultra orthodox Jewish schools, so pretty hard line anyway. It wasn't just one school either, there was a number of them.

It may just be one tv programme, but there have been other incidences in the news over the past few months. Pretty certain the programme last night said there were about 30 Christian schools in the UK teaching creationism and teaching it exclusively and denying children of any evolutionist teaching.

It is just a few schools for sure, but these schools do seem to be on the increase and that is where the worry is. The is the 21st century for pity's sake, why are we going backwards in our thinking?

 

[dancers lance]

I opt my children out of all religious worship and it's related activities at school, this includes R.E lessons any form of assembly or gathering that may contain it, any visits by people with a religious affiliation to the school and any trips to places of the like.

I do this because i can, under the School Standards and Framework act 1998.

 

[Otis]

I opt my children out of all religious worship and it's related activities at school, this includes R.E lessons any form of assembly or gathering that may contain it, any visits by people with a religious affiliation to the school and any trips to places of the like.

I do this because i can, under the School Standards and Framework act 1998.

Good for you.

When I went to school we just used to say the Lord's Prayer every morning in assembly and that was it. Never even another sniff of religion throughout the day. Today I can't get my head round this you must do this, you must pray like this, pray this many times every day, fast like this, wear this, not wear that, do this, don't do that etc.

Can't believe this is the 21st century sometimes. Some thinking is just so backwards at a time we desperately need to think forwards.

All these religious scripts were written for men by men. It is so obvious. What God would want women to cover themselves up and hide their faces so that only their man can see them as God intended? No god is the answer.

There's a girl in my daughter's class who must keep her legs covered at all times. She also never goes on school trips or outings etc. she always misses out on any fun.

I will always respect other relgions, but when there are daft and ridiculous laws and beliefs that are enforced I feel it only right to speak up.

 

[dancers lance]

Good for you.

When I went to school we just used to say the Lord's Prayer every morning in assembly and that was it. Never even another sniff of religion throughout the day. Today I can't get my head round this you must do this, you must pray like this, pray this many times every day, fast like this, wear this, not wear that, do this, don't do that etc.

Can't believe this is the 21st century sometimes. Some thinking is just so backwards at a time we desperately need to think forwards.

All these religious scripts were written for men by men. It is so obvious. What God would want women to cover themselves up and hide their faces so that only their man can see them as God intended? No god is the answer.

There's a girl in my daughter's class who must keep her legs covered at all times. She also never goes on school trips or outings etc. she always misses out on any fun.

I will always respect other relgions, but when there are daft and ridiculous laws and beliefs that are enforced I feel it only right to speak up.

I tried the 'respecting everyone's belief' thing, but as an atheist, apparently i do not deserve the same.

 

[Otis]

I tried the 'respecting everyone's belief' thing, but as an atheist, apparently i do not deserve the same.

Yep. From now on you will be known as Mr. Infidel.

 

[dancers lance]

Yep. From now on you will be known as Mr. Infidel.

And in some religions me and my children would be severely punished for being non believers, but not quite as bad as if we had committed apostasy by changing faiths.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, the burden of proof is not on me.

Just to add........Mr. Infidel is fine by me, just as long as it doesn't offend anyone.

 

[Houchens Head]

I hate ALL religion! Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Christianity & Catholics, and any other that believes there is some sort of "spook in the sky" taking care of them! Fuck me! Look at the world! It was formed MILLIONS of years ago. Man progressed from sub-human form to cave man and then developed over the next 6 - 7 million years. It has been proved with carbon dating on fossils that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago after being around for 165 million years. It's natural history! No "god" did this! Charles Darwin was my hero!
I was dragged up in a convent as a 5 year old until I was 11. I attended catholic schools all my childhood until I was 15. I hated every minute of them! Frustrated nuns and queer kiddy fiddling fucking priests! So, yes. I agree that so-called "faith schools" should be banned! And so should all religion!

 

[Otis]

Now we are a multi cultural society I think it would be right and proper for schools to cover religious history, but not teach religion.

I think that should be something done in the home.

 

[dancers lance]

Now we are a multi cultural society I think it would be right and proper for schools to cover religious history, but not teach religion.

I think that should be something done in the home.

That Otis, is my point exactly. The RE in schools is not about the history of faith it's about the fear driven, importance of respecting selected faith groups, today.































!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Cliff Richard sang a song years ago entitled, 'we are under the influence of somebody all of the time'

That's the truth

 

[Otis]

Like God, I think you will find Cliff Richard doesn't exist.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Learning about religions isn't quite the same as being indoctrinated to follow them. That is the difference between being taught RE and being forced to go to a faith school. From what I remember you do get taught about things like ethics and morality and these things are worth learning about regardless of creed.

 

[Otis]

Learning about religions isn't quite the same as being indoctrinated to follow them. That is the difference between being taught RE and being forced to go to a faith school. From what I remember you do get taught about things like ethics and morality and these things are worth learning about regardless of creed.

Would totally agree with that.

 

[duffer]

I hate ALL religion! Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Christianity & Catholics, and any other that believes there is some sort of "spook in the sky" taking care of them! Fuck me! Look at the world! It was formed MILLIONS of years ago. Man progressed from sub-human form to cave man and then developed over the next 6 - 7 million years. It has been proved with carbon dating on fossils that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago after being around for 165 million years. It's natural history! No "god" did this! Charles Darwin was my hero!
I was dragged up in a convent as a 5 year old until I was 11. I attended catholic schools all my childhood until I was 15. I hated every minute of them! Frustrated nuns and queer kiddy fiddling fucking priests! So, yes. I agree that so-called "faith schools" should be banned! And so should all religion!

I'd class Darwin as a great man too, but with respect I think you're misrepresenting his views if you think they align with yours. From what I understand he was a man of faith who became an agnostic rather than an atheist (a more scientific approach, I'd argue). He certainly didn't rail against religion or call for it to be banned, though he didn't much care for the 'fundamentalist' Christian idea of "believe or be damned" either.

Personally, I think that people should be allowed to believe what they like, including believing in nothing at all. That's as long as those beliefs don't break the law or intrude on other peoples basic rights too (which I would say should include the right to a proper education, including conventional science and sexual health, for boys and girls). All just mho, as ever.

 

[Otis]

I'd class Darwin as a great man too, but with respect I think you're misrepresenting his views if you think they align with yours. From what I understand he was a man of faith who became an agnostic rather than an atheist (a more scientific approach, I'd argue). He certainly didn't rail against religion or call for it to be banned, though he didn't much care for the 'fundamentalist' Christian idea of "believe or be damned" either.

Personally, I think that people should be allowed to believe what they like, including believing in nothing at all. That's as long as those beliefs don't break the law or intrude on others' peoples basic rights too (which would I would say should include the right to a proper education, including conventional science and sexual health, for boys and girls). All just mho, as ever.

Good post, Duffer.

 

[duffer]

Good post, Duffer.

Thanks Otis. I accept entirely your general point by the way - we shouldn't tolerate schools set up that refuse to teach science, using your example. All politics aside, this concept of free schools and academies which can now sit outside a national curriculum seems odd (and frankly backwards) to me, particularly in that regard.

(Again, just my opinion, appreciate others differ.)

 

[Otis]

Thanks Otis. I accept entirely your general point by the way - we shouldn't tolerate schools set up that refuse to teach science, using your example. All politics aside, this concept of free schools and academies which can now sit outside a national curriculum seems odd (and frankly backwards) to me, particularly in that regard.

(Again, just my opinion, appreciate others differ.)

Well that's how it seems to me, to be going backwards.

It's very important to learn about religion and the history of faiths, but what appears to be happening now at some schools is that they seem to be only teaching their own religious ethos and in some cases are ignoring science completely.

I think in one ultra Christian school here in England there was just one line in their curriculum about evolution and it was something like 'Some people believe in evolution and that humans and animals evolved, but there is nothing to back up such claims.'

As I've said before this is now the 21st century, why on earth would we go backwards in our teaching and wilfully remove the parts of everyday teaching simply because it doesn't meet the criteria of your own ethos?