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Otis · Aug 11, 2011

sky blue john said:
OSB might be able to explain it better. But the losses Sisu incur on this venture as long as they are making profit and paying tax on other investments in the uk these losses can be offset against tax that they would have to give our government. So as it stands they probably haven't lost anything.

I get that but it still doesn't make sense. What's the point from Sisu's point of view. Surely this club is a bit of a millstone. They may be making profits elsewhere, but couldn't be making more profit without us? Meanwhile this club suffers, the fans get more and more angry and soon we will have no more assets to sell. And if we are relegated any assets we have in terms of players will be devalued as on the whole the lower down the leagues a player is the less other clubs will have to pay for him.

les_miserables · Aug 11, 2011

I went tonight and asked a question...........My conclusion is it's down to us lads and lassies to get this lot out and quick. The future of OUR club is at stake. I was a bit disappointed in the attendance, although having the venue in the middle of a field in Kenilworth i can understand why. I was also miffed that there wasn't a Hoffman "plant" there to ask more searching questiuons. Us mear mortals aren't in possesion of the full facts so can only ask the obvious questions and get equally obvious answers. Clouting was just doing his job that SISU hired him for and wasn't bothered about any type of question to be honest and this is my big worry neither him, Dileu, Brody or the two new board members give a frig about our football club, it's their paymasters they are working for. There will be no money spent on players here believe me, doesn't matter whether we sell Turner, Jutkiewicz, Clingan or anyone else and get the Scott Dann kick back, no money will go on the team and what will happen is when the new crew come in we will be skint player wise, got to get them out and the local media should be more proactive in making it happen.

dadgad · Aug 11, 2011

I wont be going to the Ricoh again until Sisu leave. Simple.
Every fan should do the same.......if they treat the fans with such contempt and lack of integrity they should be ignored even if it hurts the club short term.
Cruel love....'tis is the only way......mark my words.

rob9872 · Aug 11, 2011

Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Would only work if everyone did it and that waon't happen.

Godiva · Aug 11, 2011

Otis said:
I get that but it still doesn't make sense. What's the point from Sisu's point of view. Surely this club is a bit of a millstone. They may be making profits elsewhere, but couldn't be making more profit without us? Meanwhile this club suffers, the fans get more and more angry and soon we will have no more assets to sell. And if we are relegated any assets we have in terms of players will be devalued as on the whole the lower down the leagues a player is the less other clubs will have to pay for him.

Let me rephrase
Their investments are placed as loans. The terms on these loans are such that they charge no interest and there are no periodic installments. This way the loans will never be defaulted and so they hold their original value in SISU's books. This is why SISU have not yet actually lost anything. Only if the loans were defaulted would SISU have to write down the value and thereby realise a loss.

Yes, the club suffer. But we DO have to adjust to the new financial fair play rules for next season, so as long as we are not relegated, we will become much more competitive next season.
There are quite a few teams that will suffer this season, and I am still confident we can compete aginst most of them. This season this league will be like premier league - a few teams will fight for the top places while each and every other team could end up relegated.
Our key to survival is getting behind the team. If we spend too much energy fighting the shareholders unrest may well spread like cancer to the whole organisation including the team.

Fans are angry, sure, but for all the wrong reasons and their anger is directed at the wrong persons. Any replacement for SISU would still need to make the club live within its means. New owners can't splash more money on wages as that would only come back to hurt us next season. Only by securing the revenue from the stadium will it be possible to raise the wage bill.

Nick · Aug 11, 2011

How could we compete with teams like Leeds or Leicester who will generate more money in ticket sales who own their grounds though? Their income will still tower over ours, thus paying more wages, then having better players?

dadgad · Aug 11, 2011

rob9872 said:
Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Would only work if everyone did it and that waon't happen.

I dunno, are you saying that Cov fans lack gumption??
That they're thick?
I'm NOT having that!!

Godiva · Aug 11, 2011

Nick said:
How could we compete with teams like Leeds or Leicester who will generate more money in ticket sales who own their grounds though? Their income will still tower over ours, thus paying more wages, then having better players?

If we could count in the revenue from the stadium it will stand us much better than we do atm. There will always be richer clubs in our division (whichever), but as our attendances is just about average for the championship league we will not be without some competing power. But money alone is not enough ... a quality manager, gifted players, the quality of play, consistancy, the fans support all play a role. Especially one thing is crucial and this is probably where we are lacking ... the quality on the bench. With a bigger wage budget we can at least have a better bench. The rest we already have .

Tankie · Aug 11, 2011

"Cosmic Crap"
You could actually cut the tension, as the Hapless Clouting, wished, that Scotty, mr Spock, or James T.Kirk, would beam him the hell up out of there, mumbling and stuttering, his way through a torrid 60min, where not one straight answer was given to any straight questions.
"Football is a changing Business he said in answer to an inquiry"about Andy Thorns transfer Budget, we all have to adopt new quidelines to work within our means.
I think this was a round about way of saying.."Transfer budget"what Transfer budget?.
I thought at one stage I was listening to the wrong debate,As the recurring Cliche of the moment "A business going Foreward" kept punctuating the dialogue,Call me old fashioned, but I prefer for us to be called Coventry City Football Club, not a Business going foreward, sideways. or as in our case BACKWARDS, more corporate crap to Juggle with.
Anyone expecting any seeds of comfort from this sham of a debate would be seriously disappointed, Andy Thorn himself struggled to connect, picking his words carefully, "Good old Boy" he may be, but he made Ian Dowie sound like an eminent statesman, "Wer'e working on this and wer'e changing that, and wer'e better than that, we've talked a lot about it"all the usual stock answers, but nothing to sugest how we can turn it round, and I do feel sorry for him
it is beyond his control, But his role as the incumbent sacrificial Lamb is almost a certainty, as Sisu will want to unload the blame on some'one other than themselves.

The forum, was a huge unanswered flop, and the assurance that sisu will continue to nickle and dime the club, gave me no relief, but then again I'm "Tankie, King of Negativity"
Others may hold a different view.

brinner · Aug 12, 2011

our wage bill cant be more than 60k a week now!!

over a season thats just over £3 million, an average crowd of 15k over a season paying an average of £15 a ticket is just over £5 million, take £1 million out for paying our rent for the season that still leaves a million to pay the rest of the staff within the club (well maybe not now we have 7 directors).

then theres money from sponsorship, club shop new kit sales etc so that would go a fair way to paying any bonuses the players may get which wont be much this season if results related and thats not even taking in to account the tv money we receive and prize money off the football league!!

we simply cannot be losing £8 million a season let alone 4 or 5.

Godiva · Aug 12, 2011

You should read the posts of OldSkyBlue58 - he's done a terrific job explaining the club accounts.
What you do not take into consideration is depreciation, especially on players.
The current yearly loss is probably around 3.5 million, but the cash flow deficit is probably down to 2-2.5 million. That's the figure we need to gain on player trade to break even cash flow wise.

Otis · Aug 12, 2011

Godiva said:
Let me rephrase
Their investments are placed as loans. The terms on these loans are such that they charge no interest and there are no periodic installments. This way the loans will never be defaulted and so they hold their original value in SISU's books. This is why SISU have not yet actually lost anything. Only if the loans were defaulted would SISU have to write down the value and thereby realise a loss.

Yes, the club suffer. But we DO have to adjust to the new financial fair play rules for next season, so as long as we are not relegated, we will become much more competitive next season.
There are quite a few teams that will suffer this season, and I am still confident we can compete aginst most of them. This season this league will be like premier league - a few teams will fight for the top places while each and every other team could end up relegated.
Our key to survival is getting behind the team. If we spend too much energy fighting the shareholders unrest may well spread like cancer to the whole organisation including the team.

Fans are angry, sure, but for all the wrong reasons and their anger is directed at the wrong persons. Any replacement for SISU would still need to make the club live within its means. New owners can't splash more money on wages as that would only come back to hurt us next season. Only by securing the revenue from the stadium will it be possible to raise the wage bill.

Thanks for that Godiva. Tis a dangerous game they are playing. I think most rational fans would accept the sale of say Ben Turner for £3 million and £2 million+ going to sustain the club and the rest to be spent on a player or two, but that is not what the perception is. The perception appears to be that if we sell Turner for £3 million not a penny will go into a transfer kitty and all the money will be swallowed up.

"so long as we aren't relegated?" If we only sell and don't buy then we strip the assets and the odds are that we will be relegated. Can't expect kids to step up to the plate and save us.

If we go down what will Sisu's stance be then?

BurbageSkyBlues · Aug 12, 2011

rob9872 said:
Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Would only work if everyone did it and that waon't happen.

Rob, in my opinion the fans are doing this.....look at the attendences!!

Godiva · Aug 12, 2011

Otis said:
Thanks for that Godiva. Tis a dangerous game they are playing. I think most rational fans would accept the sale of say Ben Turner for £3 million and £2 million+ going to sustain the club and the rest to be spent on a player or two, but that is not what the perception is. The perception appears to be that if we sell Turner for £3 million not a penny will go into a transfer kitty and all the money will be swallowed up.

"so long as we aren't relegated?" If we only sell and don't buy then we strip the assets and the odds are that we will be relegated. Can't expect kids to step up to the plate and save us.

If we go down what will Sisu's stance be then?

We should realise we have a new board and management and since they were installed we haven't actually sold any player. It was almost criminal Westwood and Gunnar were allowed to leave on a free, but that is neither SISU's nor the new chairmans fault. Blame that one on Ranson and the old regime!

So it is not really fair to expect that no money from player sales will go back to AT - it may be so, but it is pure speculation.

The season is only just begun, we still have 45 games left. We did lose the first one against our rich neighbors, but that was a narrow defeat and not really a surprise.
It's way too early to say with certainty that we will go down. Should it happen I don't what SISU intend to do ... at this point I don't think anybody is planning for relegation.

Otis · Aug 12, 2011

I am not a doom monger, just a realist. :thinking about: I have said all along that we will probably go down with a squad this small. Add tot he squad and we'll be okay. If we carry on like this I really think it could be quite embarrassing and that at some point we may struggle to get a first team 11 together.

As I say I am a realist. I would readily agree to Turner being sold for £3 million and AT only seeing £500,000 of that. If it meant we could bring the likes of ALF in and strengthen other areas then I'd be fine with it. I accept selling players to keep the club sustained, but as I say, if we keep a policy of only asset stripping then we are asking for trouble.

I think the way to go is to maybe sell some top earners and most valuable players but to replace them with cheaper up and coming replacements, as we did with Dann and Fox.

IF AT gets some money from sales then I would accept that for sure. Hope you are right about new board members and indeed do hope we don' have to sell anyone. At the end of the day this sqaud needs strengthening not stripping.

Godiva · Aug 12, 2011

I am not calling you a doom monger and I am not having a go at you! We have been friendly for a few years on the other board and I have nothing to settle with you. I aplolgise!

Anyway you are right in most you say - the squad is very very slim. I do think the chairman is trying to bring in loans from PL, but we can't afford to pay 100% towards their wages, so there is some difficult negotiation to do. Another problem may be that the targeted players may not fancy being 'send to Coventry' ....

Getting rid of the top earners and replacing them with cheaper upcoming replacements is what we have done for the last 3 years. The only execption being MK9.

Otis · Aug 12, 2011

Godiva said:
I am not calling you a doom monger and I am not having a go at you! We have been friendly for a few years on the other board and I have nothing to settle with you. I aplolgise!

Anyway you are right in most you say - the squad is very very slim. I do think the chairman is trying to bring in loans from PL, but we can't afford to pay 100% towards their wages, so there is some difficult negotiation to do. Another problem may be that the targeted players may not fancy being 'send to Coventry' ....

Getting rid of the top earners and replacing them with cheaper upcoming replacements is what we have done for the last 3 years. The only execption being MK9.

No need to apologise. My reply wasn't in any way meant to be aggressive! In fact I meant to put a but instead stuck in a :thinking about: by mistake!!

My concern as with many, many others is that as you quite rightly say, we haven't sold any of these supposed stars yet (Juke, Clingan, Turner), but at the same time we haven't brought a single outfield player in! And that is in a squad that has lost a fair number of players as it is. To only bring in two keepers is a great worry.

Let's hope someone comes in before the end of the windows but I am not holding my breath!

dick turpin · Aug 12, 2011

cornoccfc said:
I've heard this same story, and it was persistence that paid off, as it took many attempts of him 'knocking at the door' before they listened.

Yup about 3 months of sitting at the Higgs centre,playing ballboy for the youth team..
Then one day he tells GR that hes better than most of the youth team and gets a game.
The rest is history

DICKTURPS

sotv1987 · Aug 12, 2011

dadgad said:
I wont be going to the Ricoh again until Sisu leave. Simple.
Every fan should do the same.......if they treat the fans with such contempt and lack of integrity they should be ignored even if it hurts the club short term.
Cruel love....'tis is the only way......mark my words.

Will not happen, it's not the teams fault nor AT's, they still need our support through these tough times, i know how you feel dadgad, but it's not the answer my friend.

sotv1987 · Aug 12, 2011

Godiva said:
Let me rephrase
Their investments are placed as loans. The terms on these loans are such that they charge no interest and there are no periodic installments. This way the loans will never be defaulted and so they hold their original value in SISU's books. This is why SISU have not yet actually lost anything. Only if the loans were defaulted would SISU have to write down the value and thereby realise a loss.

Yes, the club suffer. But we DO have to adjust to the new financial fair play rules for next season, so as long as we are not relegated, we will become much more competitive next season.
There are quite a few teams that will suffer this season, and I am still confident we can compete aginst most of them. This season this league will be like premier league - a few teams will fight for the top places while each and every other team could end up relegated.
Our key to survival is getting behind the team. If we spend too much energy fighting the shareholders unrest may well spread like cancer to the whole organisation including the team.

Fans are angry, sure, but for all the wrong reasons and their anger is directed at the wrong persons. Any replacement for SISU would still need to make the club live within its means. New owners can't splash more money on wages as that would only come back to hurt us next season. Only by securing the revenue from the stadium will it be possible to raise the wage bill.

Great post Godiva, you are up there with OSB mate!!!:claping hands:

bishbosh · Aug 12, 2011

Good to read feedback about the forum even if the forum was a waste of time. Good luck to AT with all the restrictions placed upon him. After reading the posts here I still don't feel positive about the club direction under SISU

cloughie · Aug 12, 2011

Godiva said:
Yes, the club suffer. But we DO have to adjust to the new financial fair play rules for next season, so as long as we are not relegated, we will become much more competitive next season.
There are quite a few teams that will suffer this season, and I am still confident we can compete aginst most of them. This season this league will be like premier league - a few teams will fight for the top places while each and every other team could end up relegated.As the rules have not been sorted out and agreed on how do we set our buget to suit the fair play rules

As the rules have not been sorted out and agreed on how do we set our buget to suit the fair play rules when nobody knows what the are? And it's obviously going to have to be slowly introduced as clubs with high earners on long contracts cannot just off load players over night.

oldskyblue58 · Aug 12, 2011

cloughie said:
As the rules have not been sorted out and agreed on how do we set our buget to suit the fair play rules when nobody knows what the are? And it's obviously going to have to be slowly introduced as clubs with high earners on long contracts cannot just off load players over night.

That cloughie is a very good question. Whilst living within our means is the right thing to do, i do think it is convenient for the board to use as an excuse not to finance any investment in new players etc. Higher wages and player contracts will be locked in for next 2 to 3 years at some clubs which is why they are spending this year. That doesnt seem like a level playing field to me. On the other side it does increase the risk of someone elses cub going bust not ours

oldskyblue58 · Aug 12, 2011

As for the forum last night it doesnt sound as if much was revealed. Not sure these events are much use if nothing is shared

We all know that CCFC is a private company, that the directors dont have to share sensitive info, but I also think there is an opportunity at these events to give supporters some hope - they are afterall as a body the ones that in the 100+ years have provided most money to finance the club. The directors are keen to share the bad financial news like the losses (which doesnt help our image) but dont trust us enough to share in a common direction for the club. Considering our vice chairman is so well into PR you would think they would have some grasp of such things !

brinner · Aug 12, 2011

why dont we get some loan players in then to help out?

they would be off the wage bill before these new rules kick in!

job done, mite save us from relegation which would save the club a few million.

what are we gonna do next year when the rules kick in and were in league 1?? play the entire youth team and go down to league 2?

howzer · Aug 12, 2011

you know what guys there is only one answer to this and that is protest and protest hard. before and after the game but not during the game, unless we are 8 nil down to the bottom team i suppose! but seriously most city fans are singing from the same hymn sheet we need to get them out.

I have now got 15 to 20 mates who just can not face going to the matches, they are so deflated. i dont know id Hoffman can be trusted because the simple fact is where was his investors when it was his job to bring in investors?? but anything has to be better than this, it is obvious sisu are going to go but who ever buys has to understand they are not going to go with out a profit, that is what these companys do... and there lays the problem,,, who see city as a viable option to invest in? no stadium ?> the outlay to
buyt the club must be huge because no one will buy now without the stadium being part of the deal.

Clive Plattini · Aug 12, 2011

We will never be 8 nil down to the bottom team. We will be the bottom team.

brinner · Aug 12, 2011

howzer said:
you know what guys there is only one answer to this and that is protest and protest hard. before and after the game but not during the game, unless we are 8 nil down to the bottom team i suppose! but seriously most city fans are singing from the same hymn sheet we need to get them out.

I have now got 15 to 20 mates who just can not face going to the matches, they are so deflated. i dont know id Hoffman can be trusted because the simple fact is where was his investors when it was his job to bring in investors?? but anything has to be better than this, it is obvious sisu are going to go but who ever buys has to understand they are not going to go with out a profit, that is what these companys do... and there lays the problem,,, who see city as a viable option to invest in? no stadium ?> the outlay to
buyt the club must be huge because no one will buy now without the stadium being part of the deal.

all gather outside the main entrance after the watford game, im in the same boat unless i get a ticket off a mate il not be going as im not giving the parasites a penny more of my money.

probly wont do much but at least it shows we care and are finally starting to try and do something about it.

come with us to sisu hq on tuesday if you like

ajsccfc · Aug 12, 2011

blend said:
He even tried to explain what 'living within your means' means, like us footie fans may never have actually had to budget in our lives. Patronising fuck!

He's right to do so though. How many people live to a budget and yet scream that the club ought to gamble financially?

les_miserables · Aug 12, 2011

Hoffman isn't going to bring investors in while this lot are in charge, would you ? Obviously why he got out and Ranson quickly followed. We are understandably worried and impatient but any would be new owners would look at the long term picture and if it is a yard backwards to gain three yards forward so be it.

Bennets Afro · Aug 12, 2011

The best bit was the question asked to Andy Thorn - How is this squad more improved than last season and he couldn't answer haha

stupot07 · Aug 13, 2011

Godiva said:
We should realise we have a new board and management and since they were installed we haven't actually sold any player. It was almost criminal Westwood and Gunnar were allowed to leave on a free, but that is neither SISU's nor the new chairmans fault. Blame that one on Ranson and the old regime!

How do do we know that it was Ranson and the old regimes fault? We know that sisu had a man on the board and that they had final say on buying and selling players (I.e Dann and fox sales, Thomas loan deal). Who's to say that sisu didn't veto the offering of new contracts, because they didn't want to increase the wage bill, however small, while players still had 18 months - 2 years left on their contracts?

I don't believe a word any of them say so the only people I blame are the club owners sisu.

It may be a new board but its the same owners and the same people who have final say on transfers an other money matters.

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