Fans Support of Andy Thorn: A sign of just how far we have fallen? (1 Viewer)

[oldskyblue58]

I know that SISU are satan and to blame for all ills in the world including the current state of CCFC in the eyes of many here @rich87 but most of those problems were here before they arrived and will be long after they are gone. They havent helped those problems but ANY new owners will have the same issues to grapple with.

Even Hoffman & co will need to trim costs and keep them trimmed, especially wages which is the biggest cost and to be limited at a percentage of turnover. That means players on lower wages and of poorer quality. The only way that will change is by bigger crowds and i wouldnt bet on those being there because CCFC fans have an apathy from a decade of failure that will require a sustained period of success - as soon as we start losing a few (and we will) the crowds will drop off even if under a Hoffman inspired takeover. We have seen it all before.

Hoffman has not offered a new way of solution .... he has offered more of the same (if a realistic offer was made at all) ..... thats more of the same that has got us here based on the faint hope of success. Doesnt inspire me but remain open minded to be convinced it will be better

In the meantime we should not blind ourselves to the short comings in the management team or the skills & application of the players. Some of that has nothing at all to do with SISU not spending money the way we want them to. Some of those deficiencies are about personality and individual ability and that isnt because SISU havent spent money on players. Forget everything else thats gone on (lies PR Board protests) the heart of the matter is that SISU hasnt spent on players fees and wages ...... had that happened, had they spent on players there wouldnt have been half the protests, certainly not half as much analysis of their business etc.

Bottom line regarding AT is that if SISU had the money then AT would not have been manager in the first place. RR can say what he likes but it wasnt his decision to appoint AT - who when running a multi pound business would turn to an unqualified scout to run it unless they had no money ? AT is manager of course he shares some responsibility for where we find ourselves in the league. If he isnt responsible it means he makes no decisions on match days and should not be paid as manager - thats his job

SISU are a big problem but they are not the only problem. AT is part of the problem and the solution

 

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[lordsummerisle]

Would Thorn also be responsible for scouting the loan players like van aanholt, cork and Henderson?

I'll match you and raise you a Sawyer, Sears and Stead.


Maybe he just didn't have much luck with the letter S?

 

[stupot07]

Lee fowler only started 6 games, Robert betts 5 games and david pipe 11 games in their entire sky blue career.

Bigi and Thomas have already started more than betts and fowler and Christie has started more than pipe, and so has Cameron an Clarke if you want to throw them into the equations. So your comparison is falls down because we didn't have to rely on those players for an entire season while we do with this current crop of youngsters.

 

[Knowledge]

Lee fowler only started 6 games, Robert betts 5 games and david pipe 11 games in their entire sky blue career.

Bigi and Thomas have already started more than betts and fowler and Christie has started more than pipe, and so has Cameron an Clarke if you want to throw them into the equations. So your comparison is falls down because we didn't have to rely on those players for an entire season while we do with this current crop of youngsters.

Not sure where I mentioned David Pipe, however my point was this, those players started several games at that time in a very poor squad, yet at the time it was the management who were to blame for poor results, nowadays it is the squad due to the apathy towards Thorn. For most of McAllister's tenure our line-up was something like:

Fabien Debec
Andrew Whing
Mo Konjic
Calum Davenport
Craig Pead
Richie Partridge
Graham Barrett
John Eustace
Julian Joachim
Dean Holdsworth
Lee Mills

For most of Peter Reid's tenure it was along the lines of:

Steele
Carey
Giddings
Whing
Shaw
Doyle
Gudjonsson
Wood
Barrett
Jorgensen
John
Suffo

In my opinion, our squad now is no weaker.

 

[ajsccfc]

Thorn has the public on his side because he's portrayed as also fighting against SISU, whether it be lack of funds for loans, no replacements for exiting players, etc.

I don't buy for a second that no other manager would do better, as there's little to base this on considering our current manager is a converted scout with a few months' experience.

 

[@richh87]

Ranson "categorically" said a lot of things at fans forums.


None of them true though.

How bizarre that you side with SISU over Ranson. I think you're the Adrian Durham of this forum. You'll say anything to wind people up.

 

[stupot07]

Not sure where I mentioned David Pipe,

Post 32.....

 

[lordsummerisle]

How bizarre that you side with SISU over Ranson. I think you're the Adrian Durham of this forum. You'll say anything to wind people up.

Funny how the people who had the RR/SISU combination as 2 halves of the same coin suddenly seem to think that they operated totally independent of each other.

Both RR and SISU lying toe-rags, can't understand the people who find Ranson blameless when he has managed to trouser a fortune and left the club, if no worse off than he found it, certainly no better.

 

[@richh87]

Funny how the people who had the RR/SISU combination as 2 halves of the same coin suddenly seem to think that they operated totally independent of each other.

Both RR and SISU lying toe-rags, can't understand the people who find Ranson blameless when he has managed to trouser a fortune and left the club, if no worse off than he found it, certainly no better.

His vision of buying players like Dann, Fox and Westwood would have seen us finishing much higher up the league if SISU hadn't bottled it and started selling off playing assets (IMO).

SISU blew it when they abandoned 'plan A'. It was their only chance of getting us promoted and making a return on their investment. It was not Ranson's idea to stop investing and start selling off players.

 

[lordsummerisle]

His vision of buying players like Dann, Fox and Westwood would have seen us finishing much higher up the league if SISU hadn't bottled it and started selling off playing assets (IMO).

His "vision" of appointing Coleman when we had signed these players and more, resulted in us finishing one point better off than the previous season and with ever declining crowds and income(Not his, I add)

Everybody was always going on about what a hard-headed businessman Ranson was, and would never get ripped off.

When did he turn into an innocent little lamb, turned over by the nasty wolves of SISU?

Who he had been involved with for quite sometime before coming to Coventry.

 

[@richh87]

His "vision" of appointing Coleman when we had signed these players and more, resulted in us finishing one point better off than the previous season and with ever declining crowds and income(Not his, I add)

Everybody was always going on about what a hard-headed businessman Ranson was, and would never get ripped off.

When did he turn into an innocent little lamb, turned over by the nasty wolves of SISU?

Who he had been involved with for quite sometime before coming to Coventry.

Clearly managerial appointments could have been much better - but in Coleman's case in particular they seemed a good choice at the time. At least Ranson wanted us to go for it - whereas SISU... Well god knows what those prats thought the game plan was.

 

[sky_blue_up_north]

I will only judge Andy Thorn once he is given the ability to bring in 3 or 4 players. Until that point in time, I say we have to stick with him. IMO he has been shit on from a great hight. There needs to be longer term plan for the club. We cannot continue the way we are, sacking managers every year. Whether that is by SISU or anyone else. The trouble is there are only two ways we are going to get out of the mess. One, some crazy nutter comes along and invests a huge amount of money into the club, the second is highly unlikely in the next 5 to 10 years it get back the Premiership. I think we have go down lot further yet before we hit rock bottom and sacking yet another manager is not answer... we've tried that one quite a few time over the last few years

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Looks like the Thorn-out folk have taken over the forum again, then. I disagree with every single thing you all say and the OP is wrong on each point. I particualrly like the use of the word "FACT"! Always popular that with people who have a high opinion of their own views!

Peter Reid is no way near a fair comparison. Andy Thorn is best manager we've had since Black, and I certainly wasn't alone in that opinion until recently. He is working under the toughest financial circumstances at this club since relegation. He also has the weakest budget in the division- WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, PROMOTION?!?

SISU were banking on a miracle worker based on what he achieved last season (i.e. taking a relegation-bound side, securing safety with more comfort than most of the last 5 seasons, playing good football, getting the best out of his players, delivering frank, and honest and perceptive interviews and turning in top-notch performances). But SISU have asked too much, and I don't think there's a manager alive who would keep us up with our squad and the malaise around the club thanks to the owners.

Oh, and O'Donovan was a Boothroyd signng; he was impressed with him whilst he was on loan at Hartlepool and he was Colchester manager in L1. Just gotta love how AT is now to blame for everything in some fickle fans eyes!

 

[sky_blue_up_north]

Looks like the Thorn-out folk have taken over the forum again, then. I disagree with every single thing you all say and the OP is wrong on each point. I particualrly like the use of the word "FACT"! Always popular that with people who have a high opinion of their own views!

Peter Reid is no way near a fair comparison. Andy Thorn is best manager we've had since Black, and I certainly wasn't alone in that opinion until recently. He is working under the toughest financial circumstances at this club since relegation. He also has the weakest budget in the division- WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, PROMOTION?!?

SISU were banking on a miracle worker based on what he achieved last season (i.e. taking a relegation-bound side, securing safety with more comfort than most of the last 5 seasons, playing good football, getting the best out of his players, delivering franks and honest interviews and turning in top-notch performances). But SISU have asked too much, and I don't think there's a manager alive who would keep us up with our squad and the malaise around the club thanks to the owners.

Oh, and O'Donovan was a Boothroyd signng; he was impressed with him whilst he was on loan at Hartlepool and he was Colchester manager in L1. Just gotta love how AT is now to blame for everything in some fickle fans eyes!

Totally agree at last someone speaking with common sense

 

[Otis]

Looks like the Thorn-out folk have taken over the forum again, then. I disagree with every single thing you all say and the OP is wrong on each point. I particualrly like the use of the word "FACT"! Always popular that with people who have a high opinion of their own views!

Peter Reid is no way near a fair comparison. Andy Thorn is best manager we've had since Black, and I certainly wasn't alone in that opinion until recently. He is working under the toughest financial circumstances at this club since relegation. He also has the weakest budget in the division- WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, PROMOTION?!?

SISU were banking on a miracle worker based on what he achieved last season (i.e. taking a relegation-bound side, securing safety with more comfort than most of the last 5 seasons, playing good football, getting the best out of his players, delivering frank, and honest and perceptive interviews and turning in top-notch performances). But SISU have asked too much, and I don't think there's a manager alive who would keep us up with our squad and the malaise around the club thanks to the owners.

Oh, and O'Donovan was a Boothroyd signng; he was impressed with him whilst he was on loan at Hartlepool and he was Colchester manager in L1. Just gotta love how AT is now to blame for everything in some fickle fans eyes!

Disagree on this point. I think there are managers who could without any shadow of doubt do better than Thorn. It would still be a struggle and great achievement to keep us up, but I think Thorn is now contributing to our own downfall with poor decision making, a lack of motivational skills and the incapacity to see that despite his comments that results will come in time, that if we continue playing like this we will be well cast adrift by Christmas.

 

[procdoc]

Looks like the Thorn-out folk have taken over the forum again, then. I disagree with every single thing you all say and the OP is wrong on each point. I particualrly like the use of the word "FACT"! Always popular that with people who have a high opinion of their own views!

Peter Reid is no way near a fair comparison. Andy Thorn is best manager we've had since Black, and I certainly wasn't alone in that opinion until recently. He is working under the toughest financial circumstances at this club since relegation. He also has the weakest budget in the division- WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, PROMOTION?!?

SISU were banking on a miracle worker based on what he achieved last season (i.e. taking a relegation-bound side, securing safety with more comfort than most of the last 5 seasons, playing good football, getting the best out of his players, delivering frank, and honest and perceptive interviews and turning in top-notch performances). But SISU have asked too much, and I don't think there's a manager alive who would keep us up with our squad and the malaise around the club thanks to the owners.

Oh, and O'Donovan was a Boothroyd signng; he was impressed with him whilst he was on loan at Hartlepool and he was Colchester manager in L1. Just gotta love how AT is now to blame for everything in some fickle fans eyes!

I agree. Bottom line is if we hired a new manager he's still have the same shit players to work with and wouldn't do any better. At least the ball is on the ground more with Thorn

 

[Otis]

Well it's as plain as day to me that the squad isn't good enough and too small and there is too much reliance on the youth players, but also that the tactics are wrong too and the players are not motivated.

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

Well it's as plain as day to me that the squad isn't good enough and too small and there is too much reliance on the youth players, but also that the tactics are wrong too and the players are not motivated.

Who's fault is this? I would lay it directly at a certain door in Hannover street.

 

[oldskyblue58]

AT does have his faults though doesnt he. Even giving him massive credit for keeping it all going under those financial constraints he has made mistakes, he has aspects of his management that have been found wanting. For me it isnt about get rid or hold him up as a shining example in difficult circumstances...... it is about has he learnt from the experience so far and has that learning added to his ability to manage the team better in the circumstances we are in. Still undecided on that. However he is who we have and we need to support him and the team ....... shouldnt stop us from seeking answers or questionning though. He had a very good idea what he was getting into in the first place and credit to the guy he doesnt use it as an excuse publically at least.

as a general comment
I love how this forum becomes so polarised in opinions. It is either right or wrong, fact or not, truth or lie you are for or against. When in reality the actual "truth" is somewhere in the grey area in the middle.

 

[ajsccfc]

I like Thorn and he's fighting on harsh terms, but managers can't be completely blameless when leads are lost and points dropped.

 

[Otis]

Who's fault is this? I would lay it directly at a certain door in Hannover street.

First bit obviously the owners and board.

The motivation of the players to at least put a bit of effort in and the selection of tactics that would enable us to compete? The coaching staff.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

I don't, I think he's doing as well as can be expected in the circumstances. He still sees the same game as I do. The only question I had was if 442 wouldn't be worth a crack (not that we have the players), but he did give it a go after H.T. Sat and it seems to be worth giving a longer try. That means McSheffrey LW, we don't really have anyone else..not ideal, and shows up our pathetic resources rather emphatically.

Thorn has my backing 100%. Maybe even 110%...

 

[Knowledge]

I agree. Bottom line is if we hired a new manager he's still have the same shit players to work with and wouldn't do any better. At least the ball is on the ground more with Thorn

Would help if you read my point properly. YES we have a crap squad. YES we have no money. YES we play football on the ground. YES Thorn is under immense financial pressure.

HOWEVER, his tactics, that's right HIS tactics are poor, amateur in fact and the dressing room know this too, which has led them to lose respect and fight for the manager (not my words). I have played and managed at pretty decent levels (semi-pro) and can tell you now, the tactics are apauling, the worst I have seen since Adrian Heath.

How many players have Peterboro signed, How many players have Palace signed, How many players have Portsmouth signed, How many players have Barnsley signed, How many players have Bristol City signed, How many players have Milwall signed, How many players have Watford signed, How many players have Burnley signed,???

Whoopy do, we play the ball on the floor. WOW. So do Weymouth.

 

[Otis]

He has my backing too. If he makes mistakes though I will critisise him for it, same as I would for any City player who has a dreadful game.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

AT does have his faults though doesnt he. Even giving him massive credit for keeping it all going under those financial constraints he has made mistakes, he has aspects of his management that have been found wanting. For me it isnt about get rid or hold him up as a shining example in difficult circumstances...... it is about has he learnt from the experience so far and has that learning added to his ability to manage the team better in the circumstances we are in. Still undecided on that. However he is who we have and we need to support him and the team ....... shouldnt stop us from seeking answers or questionning though. He had a very good idea what he was getting into in the first place and credit to the guy he doesnt use it as an excuse publically at least.

as a general comment
I love how this forum becomes so polarised in opinions. It is either right or wrong, fact or not, truth or lie you are for or against. When in reality the actual "truth" is somewhere in the grey area in the middle.

I never said he was perfect, never said he was Jesus...but he's a very good manager in my opinion who will only get better. I don't agree with the criticism on here and some of it is as bad as the clueless, knee-jerk types who ALWAYS blame the manager, but have no conception of how things could improve, or what really is the problem. They come over as not-the-brightest. If they were Arsenal fans this season they'd have wanted Wenger sacked.

The bottom line that's often gets quoted is "take the best 4 players out of a side who finished 18th and what do you expect, improvement?!"

 

[Otis]

Would help if you read my point properly. YES we have a crap squad. YES we have no money. YES we play football on the ground. YES Thorn is under immense financial pressure.

HOWEVER, his tactics, that's right HIS tactics are poor, amateur in fact and the dressing room know this too, which has led them to lose respect and fight for the manager (not my words). I have played and managed at pretty decent levels (semi-pro) and can tell you now, the tactics are apauling, the worst I have seen since Adrian Heath.

How many players have Peterboro signed, How many players have Palace signed, How many players have Portsmouth signed, How many players have Barnsley signed, How many players have Bristol City signed, How many players have Milwall signed, How many players have Watford signed, How many players have Burnley signed,???

Whoopy do, we play the ball on the floor. WOW. So do Weymouth.

I think the tactics are awful too. Seems like we are all fooled by the pretty passing around in circles. Teams have now sussed us out and that is why we are now losing regularly.

 

[ajsccfc]

I agree. Bottom line is if we hired a new manager he's still have the same shit players to work with and wouldn't do any better.

I don't see where this theory comes from. Andy Thorn is a converted scout with a few months' experience, it seems odd to say that he's doing as well as any other experienced coach could.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Would help if you read my point properly. YES we have a crap squad. YES we have no money. YES we play football on the ground. YES Thorn is under immense financial pressure.

HOWEVER, his tactics, that's right HIS tactics are poor, amateur in fact and the dressing room know this too, which has led them to lose respect and fight for the manager (not my words). I have played and managed at pretty decent levels (semi-pro) and can tell you now, the tactics are apauling, the worst I have seen since Adrian Heath.

How many players have Peterboro signed, How many players have Palace signed, How many players have Portsmouth signed, How many players have Barnsley signed, How many players have Bristol City signed, How many players have Milwall signed, How many players have Watford signed, How many players have Burnley signed,???

Whoopy do, we play the ball on the floor. WOW. So do Weymouth.

They've all signed a hell of a lot more than us this season, and on better money!

Just because you've coached at semi-pro level doesn't make you the next Shankly or Fergie. Maybe Thorn knows more than you? I think it's a safe bet that he does.

Plonkedy plonk.

 

[Otis]

I find it bizarre that people have total faith in a bloke who is a scout and who was pretty much forced into the job.

A really good manager could make a difference. Just don't think we can afford a really good manager though.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

It seems like every defence of Thorn comes attached with a criticism of SISU. Yes, SISU have funded a sub-par squad and, yes, Andy Thorn has a tough job on his hands. But like any manager, he has to be assessed on what he manages to achieve with what he's got.

There's every chance CCFC will be dead last before the month is out. Would it really not be worth giving another manager a shot at improving things if that is the case?

 

[Otis]

Apparently though, as with GMK, if you're not for something you are against it. :facepalm:

Why can't people critisise Thorn without people thinking you want the bloke sacked? :thinking about:

 

[lordsummerisle]

It seems like every defence of Thorn comes attached with a criticism of SISU. Yes, SISU have funded a sub-par squad and, yes, Andy Thorn has a tough job on his hands. But like any manager, he has to be assessed on what he manages to achieve with what he's got.

There's every chance CCFC will be dead last before the month is out. Would it really not be worth giving another manager a shot at improving things if that is the case?

I was making a similar point last week when somebody was going on about lowest wages, no transfers etc.

Said we as well not bother then, and just have every club post their turnover and wages at the start of the season, and give the league positions based on that.

Would save a lot of hassle.

 

[Knowledge]

They've all signed a hell of a lot more than us this season, and on better money!

Just because you've coached at semi-pro level doesn't make you the next Shankly or Fergie. Maybe Thorn knows more than you? I think it's a safe bet that he does.

Plonkedy plonk.

AGAIN I didn't say they hadn't signed more than us, everyone has, but a good number of teams have signed hardly anyone too. And again, when did I say I was Fergie or Shankly? Simply made an educated observation. However, you make quite an assumption saying that Thorn knows more than I do about managing a football club. How would you know this?

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Apparently though, as with GMK, if you're not for something you are against it. :facepalm:

Why can't people critisise Thorn without people thinking you want the bloke sacked? :thinking about:

You can, but a lot of people do want him sacked. Why can't I defend him?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Respect the opinion NLHWC as I do those that want AT removed. I know you also will question things he does at times too unlike some who blindly sit on one pole or another in this forum.

As yet there is no evidence IMO that he is indeed a very good manager ....... there is circumstantial evidence from the the stats that he isnt ....... however as you have pointed out often there are some big factors/obstacles affecting his ability to prove his real worth. That is why I am sitting on the fence in my own assessment of his ability to manage. He is who we have and we should support him but I will question his actions as I would any other manager or player. Right now I think he is inexperienced in management and in dealing with the stress that our position certainly brings - that only hinders not helps him. The other obstacles to proving his ability are well documented