For debate purposes, just throwing it out there... (1 Viewer)

[win9nut]

Do you believe a fans consortium could be successful at CCFC? Do you think crowdfunding could raise enough cash to buy CCFC (in conjunction with acceptable debt levels)?
A target of say £10m for funding the club until breakeven is achieved:
1× shirt sponsor = £2,500,000/5 year deal
1× shirt rear sponsor = £2,000,000/5 year deal
1× ticket sponsor = £500,000/3 year deal
1× training kit sponsor = £250,000/3 year deal
20× corporate sponsors = £30,000/3 years
2500 target × PSL = £800 (note increase in price)
5000 target × season ticket = £400/2 year
Sub total = £9,850,000
X× membership 3 = £100/3 year
X× membership 2 = £75/2 year
X× membership 1 = £50/1 year
I doubt the sponsorship numbers are realistic, so is there someone in the know?
Accept, for example, £10m debt from SISU, Payment terms negotiable.
Invite some additional investors on board once up and running.
CEO appointed by consortium to handle the day to day running of the club.

 

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[Como]

Just wondering what division those numbers are based on, not L1 for sure.

Always begs the question what CCFC is actually worth. A lot less than 10m but how much?

 

[Gazolba]

Where is your breakdown of the cost of running the club? How long do you think the 10 million will last? Do you even know if the owners want to sell?

 

[sw88]

Erm, no.

 

[the rumpo kid]

only problem with that is no one wants to be associated with shit,

 

[Skyblueweeman]

The model of fan ownership has worked elsewhere so it is feasible. A lot depends on how much the fan base get involved but judging by the apathy shown over the past couple of years by the fans, I'm not sure we'd be the right club to carry the fan ownership baton.

It would be great if it worked but I think the key thing is that SISU are seemingly not fussed about selling.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The model of fan ownership has worked elsewhere so it is feasible.

Where has it actually worked beyond firefighting?

Notts County?
Mansfield?
Lincoln?
Ebbsfleet?

 

[stupot07]

Where has it actually worked beyond firefighting?

Notts County?
Mansfield?
Lincoln?
Ebbsfleet?

Yep, people will throw in swansea but they only own 20%, that's not real fan ownership more fan share holding. All the clubs with 50%+ fan ownership are in league two or lower.


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[MichaelCCFC]

Where has it actually worked beyond firefighting?

Notts County?
Mansfield?
Lincoln?
Ebbsfleet?

In the spirit of debate, it could also be asked where the 'rich people ownership' model has brought footballing success apart from Chelsea and Man City? Blackpool, Blackburn, Birmingham and of course us are hardly a great advert!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Blackpool substantially better off than they were - albeit with an odious little man weilding the power.

Birmingham substantially improved under Gold and Sullivan

Blackburn substantially improved under Jack Walker.

What those three clubs show more than anything is the 'free market' system of just selling to random AN Other with no connection to the community is fraught with carnage.

As such, the tentative conclusion must be a halfway house is the best bet; monied owners but with connection to community. Always a risk in such circumstances of a Geoffrey Robinson, but mitigates the risk.

That's where we are with the current state of football in this country, anyway. Beyond that, need to campaign to change the system of ownership so can swim with the tide, rather than against it.

 

[chiefdave]

You've got two major problems with fan ownership for CCFC. One is raising an amount SISU will take to walk away. It's going to be a hard sell to the vast majority of the fanbase to say give us money so we can hand it over to SISU.

Then how do you finance the club moving forward? How many clubs are there that aren't losing money? Walsall are held up as a good example, would we want to be them, basically consigned to L1 as they can't compete financially above that level. Look at a team like Pompey (although their fan ownership is under 50%), the council gave them a seven figure loan to buy Fratton Park, they have by far the biggest crowds in L2 and a budget that allows a seven figure loss in the first couple of years (of which this is the last) yet to even get in the play offs they have to not lose another game this season. Then the problems follow as their business plan requires them to be in L1 as a minimum next year. It's incredibly hard to be a successful club at break even when so many others can lose millions a year.

And that's before you even consider the problem of not having a stadium.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Blackpool substantially better off than they were - albeit with an odious little man weilding the power.

Birmingham substantially improved under Gold and Sullivan

Blackburn substantially improved under Jack Walker.

What those three clubs show more than anything is the 'free market' system of just selling to random AN Other with no connection to the community is fraught with carnage.

As such, the tentative conclusion must be a halfway house is the best bet; monied owners but with connection to community. Always a risk in such circumstances of a Geoffrey Robinson, but mitigates the risk.

That's where we are with the current state of football in this country, anyway. Beyond that, need to campaign to change the system of ownership so can swim with the tide, rather than against it.

Not quite the point I was making so to be clear, and following on from threads last week, with no one saying sisu offer a positive future and the reality being lowest league home crowd in coventry since 1962, similar with FA Cup exit, no investment and a business model that has no interest in footballing success, the onus is very much on those who reject other suggestions to explain why death under sisu is the best option available to us!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Fan ownership is not the only option open going forward, much as SISU are not the only option going forward.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Fan ownership is not the only option open going forward, much as SISU are not the only option going forward.

Truisms are...truisms. If sisu offer only the death of ccfc, what precisely are you suggesting is the way forward for us and how is it achieved?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Not quite the point I was making so to be clear, and following on from threads last week, with no one saying sisu offer a positive future and the reality being lowest league home crowd in coventry since 1962, similar with FA Cup exit, no investment and a business model that has no interest in footballing success, the onus is very much on those who reject other suggestions to explain why death under sisu is the best option available to us!

Are you suggesting the fan ownership would be viable in the context of gates of 7k?

 

[SkyBlueScottie]

5000 season tickets @ £400.... I dont think so.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Are you suggesting the fan ownership would be viable in the context of gates of 7k?

As above, the critical point is why - if other options are rejected - is death under sisu the best option available to us?

 

[Nick]

As above, the critical point is why - if other options are rejected - is death under sisu the best option available to us?

Doesn't really answer the question though?

 

[chiefdave]

As above, the critical point is why - if other options are rejected - is death under sisu the best option available to us?

Shouldn't mean blind acceptance of any alternative. What if under SISU its a slow lingering death as they run the club at break even for the next 20 years. That's 20 years to hope that someone with enough money to takeover. Fan ownership may see the club collapse in less than 5 years so we could fold before that person arrives on the scene. As bad as things are it doesn't follow that we should just take any other option without questioning potential outcomes.

 

[TrueSkyBlueLiam]

Yes, it could work. But it would take time, money, patience and business knowledge, things that not a lot of Cov fans have

 

[hill83]

Without getting into details and assuming enough money is raised to buy the club, which it won't. How would the club be funded going forward? Are the club staff going to be working for free?

I'm all for talking about ideas, but that is a huge sticking point rendering the rest of it irrelevant.

 

[hill83]

Wether we like it or not Sisu's investor put their hands in their pockets to keep things going. Serious money that I seriously doubt we would be able to conjure up almost indefinitely without a huge slice of luck and 2 quick fire promotions.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Shouldn't mean blind acceptance of any alternative. Nor blind rejection/blind acceptance of current position?What if under SISU its a slow lingering death as they run the club at break even for the next 20 years. We have just had lowest crowd for over 50 years - what state would be in after 20 more years of this?

That's 20 years to hope that someone with enough money to takeover What person?
Fan ownership may see the club collapse in less than 5 year What ownership model would guarantee ​this not happening?. so we could fold before that person arrives on the scene - what person?. As bad as things are it doesn't follow that we should just take any other option without questioning potential outcome Nor blind rejection/blind acceptance of current position?.[/QUOTE

I'm a great believer in the saying that if it ain't broke don't fix it. But if something is broken then rejecting any suggestion for how it can be fixed just leaves you with something that is broken.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

No-one is rejecting the suggestions out of hand.....just pointing out that those suggestions so far are either unworkable, unproven or just dumb.

so in that vein....We need to royally stich up & blackmail an oligarch into throwing £150m at us.....that might just get rid of sisu (£40m) & buy us a new stadium (£75m) & cover the inevitable losses until we get back to the bottom rung of the premier league where we can have another punt & start the whole fuck-up all over again.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Two questions need to be answered before considering this.

How much is the club currently losing?

How much of that loss is made up of management fees, interest on debt, and directors salaries?

 

[Glen]

simply answer no it would not work.
Those figures are Championship and not ague 1
but i get what you are trying.
This club is worthless really no assetts at all.

 

[chiefdave]

Nor blind rejection/blind acceptance of current position?

That's not what anyone is suggesting, I don't think anyone is happy with the current position but we ended up with SISU on the basis that we were in a mess and any new owners would be better, not really worked out that way has it.

We have just had lowest crowd for over 50 years - what state would be in after 20 more years of this?

Who knows, I don't and you don't. It doesn't follow that any other option is better.

What person?

A person unknown at the moment. Did Chelsea, Man City or Southampton expect to be in the position they are in today 20 years ago? No one wants a slow lingering death but there is an argument to be made that the longer we continue to exist the longer we have to find a saviour.

What ownership model would guarantee ​this not happening?.

At the moment we need someone who can come in and pay off SISU whatever it takes to get rid of them and either purchase a stake in the Ricoh or build a new ground. Whatever money it costs to do those two things would need to be put in as equity. Then we would be starting from zero, which is what should really have happened after admin. From there it would dependent on how any new owner ran the club and supporters getting behind the club in large numbers.

I'm a great believer in the saying that if it ain't broke don't fix it. But if something is broken then rejecting any suggestion for how it can be fixed just leaves you with something that is broken.

Nobody is rejecting any suggestion, you seem to be saying we should accept any situation without scrutiny as it may work out better than an unknown future under SISU or anyone they sell to.

 

[Astute]

Are you suggesting the fan ownership would be viable in the context of gates of 7k?

Are you saying that if we had a team capable of going forward.....and even winning games....that our gates would continue going down?

Our gates would get a massive boost with just SISU leaving. I know a fair few of our supporters that are lifelong fans that will not go again until they have gone.

 

[Paxman II]

SISU leaving would not adversely affect gates either way.....it's all about results on the pitch and lets be honest overcoming the apathy of Coventry supporters who have never been fervent supporters like say fans in the North East.

As for the buy out by supporters? A non starter I'm afraid. Perhaps some on here will begin to realise just how SISU are at least keeping us afloat and promising a future because unless the likes of Hoffman and his banking cohorts come along with big bucks the situation will not change. And we know how that went last time.
Operating cost alone would kill off any supporters group ownership and couple that with the stated apathy in Coventry terms, I don't think you would be able to sustain the club. Ah now where have we heard that phrase before?

Fact remains we need SISU to go as they clearly demonstrate a lack of investment required. The investment they currently give only keeps us alive with the chance of improvement. What needs to change is that mystery investor who sees an opportunity worthwhile investing in and those are thin on the ground, if at all.
Add to that no stadium ownership and we don't currently have much to offer. The only bright spot on the horizon must be that we are a big club with a relevant history that can produce 25-30k+ crowds given success on the pitch. Goodwill which has value but not enough at this point to tempt any investor I fear. Get a promotion and grab some stake hold in the Ricoh and that will change.

That brings us back around to today. We really need success on the pitch now not stagnation in league 1. It's vital we fight our way out. With SP in charge I can't see that happening........SISU will act if it does not improve this month.

 

[Marty]

I think it could potentially work, the ongoing funding would have to come from player sales. Would take luck, but no reason we can't pick up conference players, develop them and sell on. The youth academy would be needed to increase player development, so we're not only producing more players but better players. How this is done, I don't know, facilities are already very good so scouting and coaching?

I think getting people in through the gates would be the most important thing, get an exciting, entertaining, attacking team on the pitch, make people want to come back for more (at the moment I barely want to go and when I do go, I'm falling a sleep after 10 minutes). 10,000 free tickets for schools every week, etc etc.

Would obviously need years of running losses upfront, but I'd be willing to invest but only once many issues I have, had been addressed.

 

[Paxman II]

I think it could potentially work, the ongoing funding would have to come from player sales. Would take luck, but no reason we can't pick up conference players, develop them and sell on. The youth academy would be needed to increase player development, so we're not only producing more players but better players. How this is done, I don't know, facilities are already very good so scouting and coaching?

I think getting people in through the gates would be the most important thing, get an exciting, entertaining, attacking team on the pitch, make people want to come back for more (at the moment I barely want to go and when I do go, I'm falling a sleep after 10 minutes). 10,000 free tickets for schools every week, etc etc.

Would obviously need years of running losses upfront, but I'd be willing to invest but only once many issues I have, had been addressed.

Is this not what SISU are doing? The difference is they can keep the club going which is better than a supporters 'wing and a prayer' approach I'm afraid.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Where has it actually worked beyond firefighting?

Notts County?
Mansfield?
Lincoln?
Ebbsfleet?

Germany?

 

[Skyblueweeman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22625160
http://www.theguardian.com/football...2012/dec/01/german-fan-owned-clubs-bundesliga
http://www.supporters-direct.org/ne...nance-whats-the-big-deal-with-german-football
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fan-owned_sports_teams

Without looking into specific details, it certainly is possible, although dependant on a number of variables.

 

[Marty]

Is this not what SISU are doing? The difference is they can keep the club going which is better than a supporters 'wing and a prayer' approach I'm afraid.

It's what every club in the country does apart from the top 4 - 6 clubs. Key difference to what sisu do (1 good season and sold), we can have a certain player for 3 to 4 years before selling on, now, It'll take us a while, but I'm suggesting we would develop into a team that had 6-7 decent players other clubs wanted. 1 player out maybe 3 or 4 conference/lower league/youth in.

so for example, Callum Wilson was sold, instead of having to bring in 10 players + a replacement for Wilson, We'd bring in 3 or 4 plus his replacement. Having a more settled squad would be a bonus.

I'd don't know, I've never ran a business.

 

[stupot07]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22625160
http://www.theguardian.com/football...2012/dec/01/german-fan-owned-clubs-bundesliga
http://www.supporters-direct.org/ne...nance-whats-the-big-deal-with-german-football
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fan-owned_sports_teams

Without looking into specific details, it certainly is possible, although dependant on a number of variables.

It works in Germany because it is legislated in the Bundesliga rule book and requirement for all clubs. It is therefore a level playing field.

There is too much money sloshing about i english football, and clubs from championship upwards are allowed to make £13m+ per annum losses, which means fans owned (50+1%) clubs haven't got a level playing field. This is reflected by the fact that clubs 50+1% fan owned in the UK are all in league two or lower. They haven't got the financial clout to compete.

Until the PL and FL decided to implement rules to say that all clubs need to be 50+1% fan owned it's a complete non-starter for anything other than short term fire fighting, or if we're happy with a long term future as a league one/league two club.


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