Fugazi (5 Viewers)

[dongonzalos]

that is actually the plan.... But the taxman sees it differently. He says that the purchase price is that agreed between the buyer and seller. Where the finance comes from is irrelevant and how quickly it gets paid back has no effect on the original agreed price. The loan repayments are not running costs. I can only set the interest part of the repayments off against the tax as expenses.

The taxman need to do his research get him to peruse these forums.

 

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[chiefdave]

140k. The price of the flat is 140k if you agreed on 130k cash and 10k in repayments on my behalf - total 140k. Otherwise why do you want to pay my loan off out of your wages? I could of course ask for the full 140k up front and pay my own loan off. Price is still 140k.

So on the deeds it would say I'd paid you £140K?

 

[martcov]

Look at it another way, instead of taking the initial YB loan ACL had the option to pay yearly for the lease, I think it was £1m a year. If they had taken that option and with Wasps having 250 years left to go on the lease would you say they had paid CCC £255.4m?

No. How long was the lease when the price was set at 1m? They had the choice, buy the lease outright or lease it paying on a yearly basis - which would be more expensive than taking out a loan and paying upfront. They paid up front and financed it with a loan from the yb - it was cheaper. I lease my car, but get taxed on the purchase price - regardless of the lease cost.

 

[martcov]

So on the deeds it would say I'd paid you £140K?

Yes and I would have you sign that you repay my loan as the balance between 130000 and 140000.

 

[chiefdave]

Yes and I would have you sign that you repay my loan as the balance between 130000 and 140000.

No that's not what I said, I said if I paid £130K for your flat and took on your loan. You're now changing that to manipulate it to suit your point of view. If you're going to do that I will pay you £120K plus the loan as the flat is valued at £130K.

 

[martcov]

So on the deeds it would say I'd paid you £140K?

There must be a contract between the council and wasps which names the purchase price as the amount in cash plus the value of the outstanding loan on the day the contract was signed. There is no way that the contract is only for the cash part and ACL pay off the loan because there's a standing order in place. Apart from anything else, the taxman will have to know as Wasps will be writing the interest off against the tax.

 

[stupot07]

is a loan operating costs? Operating costs are things like electric and water, services etc.. Loan repayments are reducing a liability and will end some day. Running costs continue so long the business is running. ACL has to repay money borrowed - the same as if they had paid up front and taken out a loan to do so ( in effect that is what they have done, except the loan had been given to their predecessors for that reason and they just took it over - allbeit at new conditions ).

I said it was built into the operating costs. I.e monthly budgeted for, like gas, electric etc, in which their income from stadium operations will be budgeted for.


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[martcov]

No that's not what I said, I said if I paid £130K for your flat and took on your loan. You're now changing that to manipulate it to suit your point of view. If you're going to do that I will pay you £120K plus the loan as the flat is valued at £130K.

Yes. Exactly. Purchase price is then cash plus loan = 130,00. Same as ACL, cash plus loan = purchase price.

 

[stupot07]

There must be a contract between the council and wasps which names the purchase price as the amount in cash plus the value of the outstanding loan on the day the contract was signed. There is no way that the contract is only for the cash part and ACL pay off the loan because there's a standing order in place. Apart from anything else, the taxman will have to know as Wasps will be writing the interest off against the tax.

The loan is between CCC and ACL, unless that has changed.


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[chiefdave]

No. How long was the lease when the price was set at 1m? They had the choice, buy the lease outright or lease it paying on a yearly basis - which would be more expensive than taking out a loan and paying upfront. They paid up front and financed it with a loan from the yb - it was cheaper. I lease my car, but get taxed on the purchase price - regardless of the lease cost.

I'm not talking about the taxman.

Company A purchases a box making machine for £50m, the life span of the machine is 50 years. They fund this purchase with a loan where they have to pay back £1m a year. 10 years later the owners of company A sell it to to Acme for £5m. Company A will continue to make the £1m a year payments on the loan. Have Acme paid £5m or £45m to purchase company A?

Company B hires a box making machine for £1m a year on a 50 year contract. 10 years later the owners of company B sell it to to Acme for £5m. Company B will continue to make the £1m a year payments on the hire contract. Have Acme paid £5m or £45m to purchase company B?

We'd better ask Wasps how much was outstanding on the gas and electric when they took over as using your method we need to add that on to the purchase price as well.

 

[stupot07]

Yes. Exactly. Purchase price is then cash plus loan = 130,00. Same as ACL, cash plus loan = purchase price.

Come on. The loan is already in place.

If CCFC had been successful in getting higgs share would you say they paid £2.77m or £10m?

If someone bought CCFC for £1 and took on the liabilities would you say they paid £1 or £70m?

I don't understand why you and others are so obsessively defending wasps. It's bizarre.

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[martcov]

I said it was built into the operating costs. I.e monthly budgeted for, like gas, electric etc, in which their income from stadium operations will be budgeted for.


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so? The loan is a liability. It was used together with cash up front to buy the lease. 5,5m + ca 13,5m = 19m

ok, so it's paid monthly - actually ACL was previously paying the yb faster than agreed to save interest. Maybe it's a higher monthly payment now as the period is shorter, but it doesn't effect the price paid.

 

[chiefdave]

Yes. Exactly. Purchase price is then cash plus loan = 130,00. Same as ACL, cash plus loan = purchase price.

I'll try again. I buy you flat for £130K. While I'm there I like the look of your car and offer to buy it off you, turns out you owe £5K on your car loan and the car is worth £10K. I offer to pay you £5K for the car and make you a payment every month to cover the loan. Have I purchased your flat for £130K or £140K?

 

[chiefdave]

If someone bought CCFC for £1 and took on the liabilities would you say they paid £1 or £70m?

We all know the answer to this, just look how everyone ripped into Hoffman when he offered £1.

 

[martcov]

Come on. The loan is already in place.

If CCFC had been successful in getting higgs share would you say they paid £2.77m or £10m?

If someone bought CCFC for £1 and took on the liabilities would you say they paid £1 or £70m?

I don't understand why you and others are so obsessively defending wasps. It's bizarre.

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I am not defending wasps. The loan was in place and has to be repaid as a part of the purchase price. If the loan wasn't there they would have to pay the equivalent of the loan up front. If it is true that ACL is profitable enough to finance the team and repay the loan in the amount budgeted all well and good. That has nothing to do with the purchase price, which is the amount outstanding plus cash up front.

 

[chiefdave]

The loan was in place and has to be repaid as a part of the purchase price.

But from the sounds of things it's not the same loan so it wasn't already in place.

 

[martcov]

We all know the answer to this, just look how everyone ripped into Hoffman when he offered £1.

They would have to take on the liabilities as SISU did when they bought CCFC, that is the real purchase price. I bought for a quid - is simply not true. Go offer a quid to SISU. I think you'll find you have to pay the liabilities whether you can afford to in your monthly budget or not. If SISU sell you ccfc for a quid and you don't have to pay any loans back, then it is a quid.

 

[martcov]

But from the sounds of things it's not the same loan so it wasn't already in place.

If it is new or old it has to be repaid and is a liability. The contract will name the liability price as a part of the purchase price. How do you explain the liability on your balance otherwise?

 

[martcov]

I'll try again. I buy you flat for £130K. While I'm there I like the look of your car and offer to buy it off you, turns out you owe £5K on your car loan and the car is worth £10K. I offer to pay you £5K for the car and make you a payment every month to cover the loan. Have I purchased your flat for £130K or £140K?

You bought the flat for 130k. Done. I won't sell you my car. You are in effect offering to buy my car for 5k less than it is worth. What has that got to do with my house? Or do you want me to reduce my house price by 5k? Either way I ain't selling my car or house for 5k less than its worth. If I did the price of either the house or the car would be 5k less.

 

[chiefdave]

If it is new or old it has to be repaid and is a liability. The contract will name the liability price as a part of the purchase price. How do you explain the liability on your balance otherwise?

Does it matter, if CCC loan ACL another £10m tomorrow will you then be saying Wasps have purchased ACL for £30m?

You bought the flat for 130k. Done. I won't sell you my car. You are in effect offering to buy my car for 5k less than it is worth. What has that got to do with my house? Or do you want me to reduce my house price by 5k? Either way I ain't selling my car or house for 5k less than its worth. If I did the price of either the house or the car would be 5k less.

Bingo, at last. Your house = ACL, an asset your own in your car = an asset ACL own in the lease. You took out a loan to buy your car, ACL took out a loan to buy a lease.

 

[martcov]

OSB has done a piece on this confirming that the purchase is £5.4 million - still don knows more than OSB don't you don?

I know how my house purchase price is calculated and taxed - although I paid nothing up front. I know how my land rover car is leased and taxed on the purchase price - although I pay nothing up front on my lease. I would like OSB to explain how the purchase price is calculated for tax purposes. If someone said I will pay ACL 5,5m cash and 13,5 cash for the outstanding loan then they have paid 19m. If someone says I will pay you 5,5m cash and 13,5 over 20 years then they have also paid 19m albeit in repayments. Would CCC have accepted 5,5m without the loan? No, of course not. The loan is part of the contract. So Wasps didn't purchase ACL for 5,5m in reality.

 

[martcov]

Does it matter, if CCC loan ACL another £10m tomorrow will you then be saying Wasps have purchased ACL for £30m?



Bingo, at last. Your house = ACL, an asset your own in your car = an asset ACL own in the lease. You took out a loan to buy your car, ACL took out a loan to buy a lease.

1. No. The deal has been finalised.

2. Wasps have bought ACL who own a lease. They have paid part up front and the rest over 20 years. Total 19 m. They have bought one object - ACL.

 

[dongonzalos]

OSB has done a piece on this confirming that the purchase is £5.4 million - still don knows more than OSB don't you don?

The deal is worth around £20 million

Unless you can convince me that ACL owned by Wasps have not inherited a liability for 12-14 million.

 

[stupot07]

1. No. The deal has been finalised.

2. Wasps have bought ACL who own a lease. They have paid part up front and the rest over 20 years. Total 19 m. They have bought one object - ACL.

Post 7.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/52194-Wasps-owner-reveals-motives-for-Ricoh-Arena-takeover

They haven't paid £19m.

Wasps pay £5.5m to ccc and higgs for 100% share in ACL.

Wasps pay £1m to ccc to extend loan

ACL Ltd borrowed £14m from ccc. It is ACL's debt, and again it will be budgeted for within ACL's operating costs. No new money.



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[stupot07]

The deal is worth around £20 million

Unless you can convince me that ACL owned by Wasps have not inherited a liability for 12-14 million.

Wasps haven't inherited the liability, the liability still sits in ACL. It's ACL Ltd liability not LONDON Wasps Holdings Ltd liability.

If we CCFC took a loan out on further season ticket sales, that's CCFC's liability not Sisu's.

It's a it like CCFC Ltd being put into admin with debts - they weren't sisu's liabilities they were CCFC Ltd's.


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[dongonzalos]

Wasps haven't inherited the liability, the liability still sits in ACL. It's ACL Ltd liability not LONDON Wasps Holdings Ltd liability.

If we CCFC took a loan out on further season ticket sales, that's CCFC's liability not Sisu's.

It's a it like CCFC Ltd being put into admin with debts - they weren't sisu's liabilities they were CCFC Ltd's.


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If and I know its a massive if CCFC were making a profit and that profit was used to pay that liability back instead if going into SISU's accounts. They are paying for it.

 

[chiefdave]

I would like OSB to explain how the purchase price is calculated for tax purposes.

Everyone be careful what you say. Mart seems obsessed with tax, I think he's from the inland revenue!

 

[martcov]

Post 7.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/52194-Wasps-owner-reveals-motives-for-Ricoh-Arena-takeover

They haven't paid £19m.

Wasps pay £5.5m to ccc and higgs for 100% share in ACL.

Wasps pay £1m to ccc to extend loan

ACL Ltd borrowed £14m from ccc. It is ACL's debt, and again it will be budgeted for within ACL's operating costs. No new money.



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ok they have paid 5,5 and ACL will pay 13,5. Wasps own ACL. So wasps pay 5,5 in cash and their subsidiary pays 13,5 out of their profits. Total 19m over 20years. Only 5,5 in cash, but the 13,5 would have gone into ACLs pockets as profit - had they not had to pay it to CCC
One way or another CCC have 19m. The argument is, presumably, that ACL would have paid it anyway, whoever the owner was. As it now is ACL pays it as a Wasps subsidiary. So wasps do not get the 13,5m which would have gone to them as owners . Even if it is budgeted, Wasps have to earn it first through ACL. The council is well out of it. You will no doubt say, the council could have kept plodding along as long as ACL earned enough to pay back the loan. Which is true, but it isn't their job to run a stadium and Higgs wanted out from the start. The best case would have been SISU - but they insist on doing their own thing.

 

[Nick]

ok they have paid 5,5 and ACL will pay 13,5. Wasps own ACL. So wasps pay 5,5 in cash and their subsidiary pays 13,5 out of their profits. Total 19m over 20years. Only 5,5 in cash, but the 13,5 would have gone into ACLs pockets as profit - had they not had to pay it to CCC
One way or another CCC have 19m. The argument is, presumably, that ACL would have paid it anyway, whoever the owner was. As it now is ACL pays it as a Wasps subsidiary. So wasps do not get the 13,5m which would have gone to them as owners . Even if it is budgeted, Wasps have to earn it first through ACL. The council is well out of it. You will no doubt say, the council could have kept plodding along as long as ACL earned enough to pay back the loan. Which is true, but it isn't their job to run a stadium and Higgs wanted out from the start. The best case would have been SISU - but they insist on doing their own thing.

It sort of is their job if they own a stadium management company isn't it?

 

[martcov]

Everyone be careful what you say. Mart seems obsessed with tax, I think he's from the inland revenue!

No, the inland revenue is obsessed with me at the moment. For months I've been fighting off these arguments e.g. Purchasing a loss making business off myself and making it profitable... The difference being that if I fuck up with them, I get an assessment for thousands. Here, it's well ok then, let's move on.

 

[martcov]

It sort of is their job if they own a stadium management company isn't it?

Yes.

 

[dongonzalos]

Post 7.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/52194-Wasps-owner-reveals-motives-for-Ricoh-Arena-takeover

They haven't paid £19m.

Wasps pay £5.5m to ccc and higgs for 100% share in ACL.

Wasps pay £1m to ccc to extend loan

ACL Ltd borrowed £14m from ccc. It is ACL's debt, and again it will be budgeted for within ACL's operating costs. No new money.



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They bought ACL which means they bought its debt. The deal did not exclude the debt.
They are the owners of the owners of the debt

 

[martcov]

Post 7.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/52194-Wasps-owner-reveals-motives-for-Ricoh-Arena-takeover

They haven't paid £19m.

Wasps pay £5.5m to ccc and higgs for 100% share in ACL.

Wasps pay £1m to ccc to extend loan

ACL Ltd borrowed £14m from ccc. It is ACL's debt, and again it will be budgeted for within ACL's operating costs. No new money.



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my debt repayments are budgeted in, but I would rather have the cash instead of paying the debts..

 

[Warwickhunt]

Can't answer for Grendel but I can make my own comments



If both these things that were oft repeated by CCC & Higgs are true then all the councillors who voted yes to the sale should be hung in Broadgate as they have sold ACL to Wasps for a bargain basement price.



The value of the business is £12 million with a loan outstanding, Wasps have paid less than half that and the loan is still outstanding. It can't be part of the purchase, it's money being loaned out being repaid not new money coming in. if you're going to factor in things happening in the future the main thing to factor in is the shortly due stadium naming rights renewal. There's a good chance this will bring in more than Wasps have paid meaning to all intents and purposes CCC have gifted the stadium to Wasps free of charge.

If the wasp did not clear the existing loan are servicing the loan that was made to ACL then they have fell into SISU's web and the appeal they have made has grounds

 

[Nick]

If the wasp did not clear the existing loan are servicing the loan that was made to ACL then they have fell into SISU's web and the appeal they have made has grounds

So they would have had to basically get another loan to pay that loan off? Can you explain for the retards like me