Gathering for Tommy / Discontent (58 Viewers)

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clint van damme

Well-Known Member
So the number is infinite but it's controlled, that clears that up at least.

Is there (and I've asked this many times but never got an answer) a limit on the number of migrants that once reached, would have a detrimental effect on the people already residing in the UK?

Is there any point that you would say "this is unsustainable?"

If so, what in your opinion is that limit?

Half a million a year? 1 million a year?
5 million? 20 million?

I've no idea. I'm sure they'll be a study on it online somewhere.
Though I'd imagine 'detrimental affect' is partially subjective.
Some people will think one immigrant is one too many.
I honestly have no idea what the limit should be but if we want a proper debate on this we need to go into the pros and cons and if we reduce immigration we need solutions to any cons that may arise.
Social care been prime example.
 

D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
It's awful wording and quite deliberate.
And specifically victimizes asylum seekers who end up being collateral damage and have done nothing but flee persecution.

It's a disgusting generalized phrase to lump everything in together and stokes exactly what we see now.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
I've no idea. I'm sure they'll be a study on it online somewhere.
Though I'd imagine 'detrimental affect' is partially subjective.
Some people will think one immigrant is one too many.
I honestly have no idea what the limit should be but if we want a proper debate on this we need to go into the pros and cons and if we reduce immigration we need solutions to and cons that may arise.
Social care been prime example.
We're also not producing enough kids, so if people want less immigration they need the country to get shagging more.

I might start a slogan.
 
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
You haven't DMd me?

If you used the report button then it will be looked at as soon as I can get to my computer. (working on a better way to sort it from phones)

I haven't seen but just to be clear, reporting things doesn't instantly mean people are going to banned or things removed. The ones on Friday night, obviously it did.
I reported various posts.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking of the your country needs you poster but with a massive dick on there and shortening 'country'
 
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Otis

Well-Known Member
You haven't DMd me?

If you used the report button then it will be looked at as soon as I can get to my computer. (working on a better way to sort it from phones)

I haven't seen but just to be clear, reporting things doesn't instantly mean people are going to banned or things removed. The ones on Friday night, obviously it did.
I think you have a mess to sort out from last night unfortunately.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
We're also not producing enough kids, so if people want less immigration they need the country to get shagging more.

I might start a slogan.

I've said this before, our whole society is structured around ever increasing population.
If we reduce immigration and the population shrinks we need to find another way of doing things.
This is the sort of thing I was alluding to in my previous post.

I think currently we have something like 3 working adults to every 1 inactive adult and it will soon be 2 to 1.

Obviously there's been a rise in working age inactivity but the main driver is the increase in old people.

Be interested to hear your slogan!'
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
I've said this before, our whole society is structured around ever increasing population.
If we reduce immigration and the population shrinks we need to find another way of doing things.
This is the sort of thing I was alluding to in my previous post.

I think currently we have something like 3 working adults to every 1 inactive adult and it will soon be 2 to 1.

Obviously there's been a rise in working age inactivity but the main driver is the increase in old people.

Be interested to hear your slogan!'
Kill Old People?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
I've said this before, our whole society is structured around ever increasing population.
If we reduce immigration and the population shrinks we need to find another way of doing things.
This is the sort of thing I was alluding to in my previous post.

I think currently we have something like 3 working adults to every 1 inactive adult and it will soon be 2 to 1.
spot on, was amazed to find that 1 in 4 working age people don't work in this country
then add in kids and pensioners and there's a huge number of people who need to be supported by the working population
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
So for balance (and these are made up numbers so don't quote facts to me), let's say net migration is 1m per year but 100,000 are illegal immigrants if those were stopped, which I think is pretty much the message Rishi was retrying to say, but net immigration remained the same, would people be happier and more accepting? I think they would. It's the illegal word that stokes the fires. In addition a ridiculously high percentage of those are young single males, not families, not women. Is that the crux of the problem? If it is then what answers do we have to tackle that if we all agree that normal migration is good for the country?
Here's where I struggle with this 'balance' (and I hadn't even seen you'd used the word until I'd bashed this out, so not particularly targeted at you specifically). I think nobody, but nobody would be averse to people who are in the country illegally being removed. Actually, I can think of one person I knew who would, but they're very much on the margins of the debate.

So, lets take this middle ground as nobody wants people who are in this country illegally, to remain in the country illegally.

The problem is, who it takes out in collatoral damage, the same as suggesting people are benefit cheats, the rich elite are all tax dodgers etc... how about those who *need* benefits? You cannot demonise them or stop their support because some try to circumvent the system as, in any walk of life, there will be people who try to do that. I reckon through my work / research over time I've met more asylum seekers than many, and their stories of their experiences can make you physically sick. What they are, almost to a (wo)man, is grateful to this country for its sanctuary, grateful for its acceptance of them, and patriotic in that they are delighted for the chance to make a life for themselves away from those horrors. That is also why they come and seek asylum here, not because we're a soft touch but because we're seen as fair-minded and having a sense of justice... although I couldn't say how it is now as my contact is substantially less - the limited I do have suggests since Brexit people feel more under threat.

In terms of being asked to have a reasonable debate, I get laughed at and mocked when I point out the stats, I get laughed at and mocked when I point out it just isn't possible to be an illegal asylum seeker - that sense of fairness surely allows everyone to have their case judged doesn't it? And people do mix the numbers substantially together. Economic migrants tend to actually contribute more than they take out so, actually, remove them and we have less to spend in a country. Asylum seekers to my mind have the absolute right to claim safety and sanctuary from torture and torment.

So that leaves people who melt away into the shadows, either straight away (in which case they won't be on the numbers anyway) or after their claim has been refused... or if they overstay their visa.

I don't think anybody has an issue with those people being found and deported.

So the focus needs to shift in *how* you process people to begin with, how quickly you process people, and what you do with them once a decision is reached! As with so many things that tends to come down to resources and manpower - and if instead of slogans coined to stir up a sentiment of hatred and anger, and money pointlessly funnelled off to an impractical and immoral policy in Rwanda, then it would have been far better spent on the resources needed to speed up claims (which would also help indeed areas like Allesley. Grendel is quite right, the hotel there has caused no end of problems but isn't it better to process those who have a valid claim and let them make their way in the world... along with processing those we want rid of ASAP so they don't get the chance to wreak havoc?), and find those who are here without recourse to be. *That* is the middle ground, remove those who should not be here... but don't take down innocent people with it. That applies across society and is why generalisations are dangerous - people mix and match different areas to form a case for preconceptions.

Now Brighton Sky Blue had it spot on when he said we need to train people for jobs economic migrants currently do. That takes time however, so won't fix instantly. It also means expense, so we have to accept we will be worse off for a while to be better off overall.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Kill Old People?
I know you're joking but we desperately need to have a serious debate in this country about this.

My Dad is in end of life care, we're 3.5 years into that. Anyone who has been in a similar situation is almost certain to have questioned what the point is in keeping people alive in that state.

For a few years before that his life consisted of moving between his bed and the sofa with trips at least once a week to the hospital for some test or procedure.

Then he collapsed and ended up in hospital, was stuck there for weeks as there was no care places available. He's now been in the home for 3 years. He's bed bound, can't see, can't hear, has no clue where he is, who people are, or what is going on. If he's awake he is screaming for help or to go home. In his more lucid moments he will ask me to help him kill himself.

Who is that benefiting while costing a huge amount of money and resources? As more than one doctor has said to me we're at a point where medical science is so good we're keeping people alive way past what their bodies and brains can cope with.
 
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
They will be looked at. Don't worry!

Although as you thought it was best to post to try and stir it up rather than send me DM says volumes.

I'm sure you will get some likes.
You responded to me reporting posts by DM previously so it was safe to assume you had seen them as you had been posting. I am not stirring up anything. I just feel as the most popular CCFC fan site on the Internet we should follow the club's example in having a clear zero tolerance approach to racism in all its forms.

We have people who have stopped posting because of this and we should show solidarity with our players in rejecting racism.

I couldn't care less about likes. I just don't want my club associated with racism.
 
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D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
Here's where I struggle with this 'balance' (and I hadn't even seen you'd used the word until I'd bashed this out, so not particularly targeted at you specifically). I think nobody, but nobody would be averse to people who are in the country illegally being removed. Actually, I can think of one person I knew who would, but they're very much on the margins of the debate.

So, lets take this middle ground as nobody wants people who are in this country illegally, to remain in the country illegally.

The problem is, who it takes out in collatoral damage, the same as suggesting people are benefit cheats, the rich elite are all tax dodgers etc... how about those who *need* benefits? You cannot demonise them or stop their support because some try to circumvent the system as, in any walk of life, there will be people who try to do that. I reckon through my work / research over time I've met more asylum seekers than many, and their stories of their experiences can make you physically sick. What they are, almost to a (wo)man, is grateful to this country for its sanctuary, grateful for its acceptance of them, and patriotic in that they are delighted for the chance to make a life for themselves away from those horrors. That is also why they come and seek asylum here, not because we're a soft touch but because we're seen as fair-minded and having a sense of justice... although I couldn't say how it is now as my contact is substantially less - the limited I do have suggests since Brexit people feel more under threat.

In terms of being asked to have a reasonable debate, I get laughed at and mocked when I point out the stats, I get laughed at and mocked when I point out it just isn't possible to be an illegal asylum seeker - that sense of fairness surely allows everyone to have their case judged doesn't it? And people do mix the numbers substantially together. Economic migrants tend to actually contribute more than they take out so, actually, remove them and we have less to spend in a country. Asylum seekers to my mind have the absolute right to claim safety and sanctuary from torture and torment.

So that leaves people who melt away into the shadows, either straight away (in which case they won't be on the numbers anyway) or after their claim has been refused... or if they overstay their visa.

I don't think anybody has an issue with those people being found and deported.

So the focus needs to shift in *how* you process people to begin with, how quickly you process people, and what you do with them once a decision is reached! As with so many things that tends to come down to resources and manpower - and if instead of slogans coined to stir up a sentiment of hatred and anger, and money pointlessly funnelled off to an impractical and immoral policy in Rwanda, then it would have been far better spent on the resources needed to speed up claims (which would also help indeed areas like Allesley. Grendel is quite right, the hotel there has caused no end of problems but isn't it better to process those who have a valid claim and let them make their way in the world... along with processing those we want rid of ASAP so they don't get the chance to wreak havoc?), and find those who are here without recourse to be. *That* is the middle ground, remove those who should not be here... but don't take down innocent people with it. That applies across society and is why generalisations are dangerous - people mix and match different areas to form a case for preconceptions.

Now Brighton Sky Blue had it spot on when he said we need to train people for jobs economic migrants currently do. That takes time however, so won't fix instantly. It also means expense, so we have to accept we will be worse off for a while to be better off overall.
Absolutely. Just to be clear it takes the best part of a decade to train a doctor to the requisit level from scratch.
 

nicksar

Well-Known Member
I know you're joking but we desperately need to have a serious debate in this country about this.

My Dad is in end of life care, we're 3.5 years into that. Anyone who has been in a similar situation is almost certain to have questioned what the point is in keeping people alive in that state.

For a few years before that his life consisted of moving between his bed and the sofa with trips at least once a week to the hospital for some test or procedure.

Then he collapsed and ended up in hospital, was stuck there for weeks as there was no care places available. He's now been in the home for 3 years. He's bed bound, can't see, can't hear, has no clue where he is, who people are, or what is going on. If he's awake he is screaming for help or to go home. In his more lucid moments he will ask me to help him kill himself.

Who is that benefiting while costing a huge amount of money and resources? As more than one doctor has said to me we're at a point where medical science is so good we're keeping people alive way past what their bodies and brains can cope with.
Your last paragraph is one my Wife has been saying for a very long time....feel for you.
 
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D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
Absolutely. Just to be clear it takes the best part of a decade to train a doctor to the requisit level from scratch.
I would be all for a policy that meant we had to stop relying on immigrants to fill more of our jobs. The latter beings its own dangers after all - what if they stop wanting to come? It's also exploitative in its own way and allows us to neglect our own foundations.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
You responded to me reporting posts by DM previously so it was safe to assume you had seen them as you had been posting. I am not stirring up anything. I just feel as the most popular CCFC fan site on the Internet we should follow the club's example in having a clear zero tolerance approach to racism in all its forms.

We have people who have stopped posting because of this and we should show solidarity with our players in rejecting racism.

Odd that there seems to be an issue with the people reporting the racism rather than the racist posts themselves.
 

Nuskyblue

Well-Known Member
spot on, was amazed to find that 1 in 4 working age people don't work in this country
then add in kids and pensioners and there's a huge number of people who need to be supported by the working population
So the issue is economically inactive adults, surely this should be the issue that is front and centre?
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
The fact that they are all happily filming each other and posting it online will certainly help the police
The amount of idiots who have grassed themselves up means Labour best on a move on with building some new prisons.
 

Nuskyblue

Well-Known Member
I know you're joking but we desperately need to have a serious debate in this country about this.

My Dad is in end of life care, we're 3.5 years into that. Anyone who has been in a similar situation is almost certain to have questioned what the point is in keeping people alive in that state.

For a few years before that his life consisted of moving between his bed and the sofa with trips at least once a week to the hospital for some test or procedure.

Then he collapsed and ended up in hospital, was stuck there for weeks as there was no care places available. He's now been in the home for 3 years. He's bed bound, can't see, can't hear, has no clue where he is, who people are, or what is going on. If he's awake he is screaming for help or to go home. In his more lucid moments he will ask me to help him kill himself.

Who is that benefiting while costing a huge amount of money and resources? As more than one doctor has said to me we're at a point where medical science is so good we're keeping people alive way past what their bodies and brains can cope with.
It's so sad and really it's inhumane but there is legally no alternative is there?
 
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
I would be all for a policy that meant we had to stop relying on immigrants to fill more of our jobs. The latter beings its own dangers after all - what if they stop wanting to come? It's also exploitative in its own way and allows us to neglect our own foundations.
I agree but no Government tackles this issue because it is so long term and there are no votes in saying we will have more home grown doctors within the next 10-15 years. Not as catchy as 'Get Brexit Done' or 'Stop the Boats'.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
Right wing protectors gathering outside a Holiday Inn in Rotherham. Surprised places like that and Burnley haven't experienced trouble so far.

A couple of seasons back we went to Rotherham for our game on a Saturday. On the same day there was a March outside the same holiday inn (presumably) protesting about the housing of migrants there.

So sad.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member

Nuskyblue

Well-Known Member
spot on, was amazed to find that 1 in 4 working age people don't work in this country
then add in kids and pensioners and there's a huge number of people who need to be supported by the working population
A lot of these "protests" are taking place in towns/city's with high unemployment. Blackburn, Burnley, Sunderland are all pretty deprived.

A lot of this I think stems from inequality (also ignorance).
 
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