Gathering for Tommy / Discontent (7 Viewers)

[Nick]

Just going out for the day. Phone might die.

Suggest people also get some air

 

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[rob9872]

Have they not heard of cameras? Wtf would you be so stupid? It's not like it's free just because nobody is there and mist of them wouldn't normally be shoplifting. Really weird blazen behaviour. These aren't even likely to have been protesting, simply opportunists.

 

[torchomatic]

Have they not heard of cameras? Wtf would you be so stupid? It's not like it's free just because nobody is there and mist of them wouldn't normally be shoplifting. Really weird blazen behaviour. These aren't even likely to have been protesting, simply opportunists.

I know. They could ruin their lives and get a criminal record all over a four pack of Stella or whatever.

Personally I'd have gone for the wine gums and Haribo.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I know you're joking but we desperately need to have a serious debate in this country about this.

My Dad is in end of life care, we're 3.5 years into that. Anyone who has been in a similar situation is almost certain to have questioned what the point is in keeping people alive in that state.

For a few years before that his life consisted of moving between his bed and the sofa with trips at least once a week to the hospital for some test or procedure.

Then he collapsed and ended up in hospital, was stuck there for weeks as there was no care places available. He's now been in the home for 3 years. He's bed bound, can't see, can't hear, has no clue where he is, who people are, or what is going on. If he's awake he is screaming for help or to go home. In his more lucid moments he will ask me to help him kill himself.

Who is that benefiting while costing a huge amount of money and resources? As more than one doctor has said to me we're at a point where medical science is so good we're keeping people alive way past what their bodies and brains can cope with.

Full strength to you, and I really hope things get easier for you at some point.

 

[Johnnythespider]

Here's where I struggle with this 'balance' (and I hadn't even seen you'd used the word until I'd bashed this out, so not particularly targeted at you specifically). I think nobody, but nobody would be averse to people who are in the country illegally being removed. Actually, I can think of one person I knew who would, but they're very much on the margins of the debate.

So, lets take this middle ground as nobody wants people who are in this country illegally, to remain in the country illegally.

The problem is, who it takes out in collatoral damage, the same as suggesting people are benefit cheats, the rich elite are all tax dodgers etc... how about those who *need* benefits? You cannot demonise them or stop their support because some try to circumvent the system as, in any walk of life, there will be people who try to do that. I reckon through my work / research over time I've met more asylum seekers than many, and their stories of their experiences can make you physically sick. What they are, almost to a (wo)man, is grateful to this country for its sanctuary, grateful for its acceptance of them, and patriotic in that they are delighted for the chance to make a life for themselves away from those horrors. That is also why they come and seek asylum here, not because we're a soft touch but because we're seen as fair-minded and having a sense of justice... although I couldn't say how it is now as my contact is substantially less - the limited I do have suggests since Brexit people feel more under threat.

In terms of being asked to have a reasonable debate, I get laughed at and mocked when I point out the stats, I get laughed at and mocked when I point out it just isn't possible to be an illegal asylum seeker - that sense of fairness surely allows everyone to have their case judged doesn't it? And people do mix the numbers substantially together. Economic migrants tend to actually contribute more than they take out so, actually, remove them and we have less to spend in a country. Asylum seekers to my mind have the absolute right to claim safety and sanctuary from torture and torment.

So that leaves people who melt away into the shadows, either straight away (in which case they won't be on the numbers anyway) or after their claim has been refused... or if they overstay their visa.

I don't think anybody has an issue with those people being found and deported.

So the focus needs to shift in *how* you process people to begin with, how quickly you process people, and what you do with them once a decision is reached! As with so many things that tends to come down to resources and manpower - and if instead of slogans coined to stir up a sentiment of hatred and anger, and money pointlessly funnelled off to an impractical and immoral policy in Rwanda, then it would have been far better spent on the resources needed to speed up claims (which would also help indeed areas like Allesley. Grendel is quite right, the hotel there has caused no end of problems but isn't it better to process those who have a valid claim and let them make their way in the world... along with processing those we want rid of ASAP so they don't get the chance to wreak havoc?), and find those who are here without recourse to be. *That* is the middle ground, remove those who should not be here... but don't take down innocent people with it. That applies across society and is why generalisations are dangerous - people mix and match different areas to form a case for preconceptions.

Now Brighton Sky Blue had it spot on when he said we need to train people for jobs economic migrants currently do. That takes time however, so won't fix instantly. It also means expense, so we have to accept we will be worse off for a while to be better off overall.

The question for me is when does prolonging life become prolonging suffering, it's moral dilemma I hope we can find an answer to, I hope things get better for you all soon.

 

[Harry Krishner]

And now the looting.

Pretty shameful all round here.

Bad I agree, but that is pretty much what was going on during the BLM riots (resulting in 20+ deaths) - yet that was alright?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Absolutely. Just to be clear it takes the best part of a decade to train a doctor to the requisit level from scratch.

Which is why we should be pretty alarmed at the numbers of doctors who leave this country for better conditions elsewhere.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Which is why we should be pretty alarmed at the numbers of doctors who leave this country for better conditions elsewhere.

And of course why in a global sense us then importing from other countries does the world as a whole no favours.

We really need to accept that we need to pay for the good things we have if we want to keep having them.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Bad I agree, but that is pretty much what was going on during the BLM riots (resulting in 20+ deaths) - yet that was alright?

Always whataboutism

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And of course why in a global sense us then importing from other countries does the world as a whole no favours.

We really need to accept that we need to pay for the good things we have if we want to keep having them.

That’s become a dirty thing to say in the last 14 years. What a pity the current government lacks the gumption to admit that in refusing to spend what was needed in the first place, the country is going to have to spend even more if we want to fix things.

You posted about Harold Wilson a short while ago, he spent more on education than the military with some pretty profound results. Pity that kind of vision didn’t last

 

[Deleted member 5849]

That’s become a dirty thing to say in the last 14 years. What a pity the current government lacks the gumption to admit that in refusing to spend what was needed in the first place, the country is going to have to spend even more if we want to fix things.

It was before then tbh. PFI was a failed attempt to give without cost.

 

[clint van damme]

Always whataboutism

And where were these 20 deaths? Not in this country.

 

[torchomatic]

If only Farage was PM...

 

[David O'Day]

Bad I agree, but that is pretty much what was going on during the BLM riots (resulting in 20+ deaths) - yet that was alright?

Hairy Cunter

 

[Ccfcisparks]

View attachment 37435

If only Farage was PM...

That account is a bot im pretty sure

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Ring of steel likes my post
Last seen 4 minutes ago
Jam See likes my post

interesting, does that count as one like from same person

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Ring of steel likes my post
Last seen 4 minutes ago
Jam See likes my post

interesting, does that count as one like from same person

I know it might be a radical thought, but they might be different people

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Ring of steel likes my post
Last seen 4 minutes ago
Jam See likes my post

interesting, does that count as one like from same person

is it an important issue for you?

 

[chiefdave]

Right wing protectors gathering outside a Holiday Inn in Rotherham.

Just going out for the day.

 

[JAM See]

I know it might be a radical thought, but they might be different people

Or they might not.

Let's ask @alexjones

 

[David O'Day]

I know. They could ruin their lives and get a criminal record all over a four pack of Stella or whatever.

Personally I'd have gone for the wine gums and Haribo.

They'll end up with a looting charge, in 2011 people got jail for taking things like a bottle of water etc.

 

[robbiekeane]

For fuck sake people, you are looking the wrong way…you are looking DOWN the social class system to blame the people who are less fortunate than you when you should be looking UPWARDS to the people in control hoarding resources and are actually the cause of your problems.

Fucking bizarre

 

[nicksar]

For fuck sake people, you are looking the wrong way…you are looking DOWN the social class system to blame the people who are less fortunate than you when you should be looking UPWARDS to the people in control hoarding resources and are actually the cause of your problems.

Fucking bizarre

Worth more than a like tbh

 

[pusbccfc]

Getting really ugly in Bolton and Rotherham.

A hotel is being smashed up in Rotherham and the police can't cope.


Just seen the weapons the anti-protesters have in Bolton. Police have got a lot of work to do there.

 

[David O'Day]

Getting really ugly in Bolton and Rotherham.

A hotel is being smashed up in Rotherham and the police can't cope.


Just seen the weapons the anti-protesters have in Bolton. Police have got a lot of work to do there.

Sensationalising this stuff doesn't help.

It's not the police can't cope, it is the standard tactic to watch, record and arrest next day.

If the try to escalate from throwing things at a distance they will stop them.

 

[JAM See]

For fuck sake people, you are looking the wrong way…you are looking DOWN the social class system to blame the people who are less fortunate than you when you should be looking UPWARDS to the people in control hoarding resources and are actually the cause of your problems.

Fucking bizarre

Agreed.

I'm generally a fan of civil disobedience.

All civil disobedience is essentially a critique of capitalism.

Unfortunately, the state's and media's response to civil disobedience ends up reinforcing the status quo.

Poor, disenfranchised people wrong.
Rich owners of production right.

 

[stupot07]

Fucking scumbag taking his what 5-6 year old child to a riot.

 

[SBAndy]

Just going out for the day. Phone might die.

Suggest people also get some air

No two-footing shop windows!!

 

[pusbccfc]

Sensationalising this stuff doesn't help.

It's not the police can't cope, it is the standard tactic to watch, record and arrest next day.

If the try to escalate from throwing things at a distance they will stop them.

They have broken into the hotel housing migrants and there's no one to stop them.

Police can lock them all up tomorrow but that won't ensure safety for those inside.

 

[David O'Day]

again very little in the way of hiding their identities, like they want to be nicked

 

[David O'Day]

They have broken into the hotel housing migrants and there's no one to stop them.

Police can lock them all up tomorrow but that won't ensure safety for those inside.

they have tried and failed, let's not big up the success of the cunts

 

[Johnnythespider]

Which is why we should be pretty alarmed at the numbers of doctors who leave this country for better conditions elsewhere.

It's almost as if paying them what they are worth for the last 20 years could have headed all these problems off, they'd have been happier to stay in the NHS where they trained and we wouldn't now have a shortage in staff or need to bring in so many from overseas

 

[pusbccfc]

they have tried and failed, let's not big up the success of the cunts

Have they? Unless there's a police line inside the hotel, the video shows at the side and hoards of people moving into the hotel.

It's possibly the worst thing I've seen this weekend and that's saying something.

 

[David O'Day]

Have they? Unless there's a police line inside the hotel, the video shows at the side and hoards of people moving into the hotel.

It's possibly the worst thing I've seen this weekend and that's saying something.

the pictures show them coming back out again

Disinformation is wrong no matter side you are on.

 

[David O'Day]

Most seem more interested in taking stuff to throw