richnrg
Well-Known Member
and how do SNP expect to be given chance for referendum in next 5 years?
i.e.
Sturgeon: Please sir, can we have a referendum?
Johnson: No
The end
and how do SNP expect to be given chance for referendum in next 5 years?For those suggesting yesterday is the beginning of Scottish independence worth noting the SNP share of the vote was still the same % as that voted to leave in the 2014 referendum - 45%.
That's a dangerous game though isn't it? If the 'will of the people' is a referendum and Johnson keeps refusing are they just going to say OK and forget about it?and how do SNP expect to be given chance for referendum in next 5 years?
i.e.
Sturgeon: Please sir, can we have a referendum?
Johnson: No
The end
I don't think NI. Now Johnson can do what he wants I think we might see a Brexit deal that doesn't cut us off even if it isn't what the ERG want.I agree - But others I couldn’t see that working
and maybe N Ireland ?
the consequences being? (in reality)That's a dangerous game though isn't it? If the 'will of the people' is a referendum and Johnson keeps refusing are they just going to say OK and forget about it?
Look at Catalonia and the problems with not acquiescing to a democratic mandate (and the mess that has been the UK for 3 and a half years). If he rejects it it will fit into their 'being ruled against our will' narrative and make the event more likely in future.and how do SNP expect to be given chance for referendum in next 5 years?
i.e.
Sturgeon: Please sir, can we have a referendum?
Johnson: No
The end
yes, but in reality, can you see Johnson gambling the Union in this way. I can't. He'll have to come up with some sort of solution, I agree, but why would he ever choose that one?Look at Catalonia and the problems with not acquiescing to a democratic mandate (and the mess that has been the UK for 3 and a half years). If he rejects it it will fit into their 'being ruled against our will' narrative and make the event more likely in future.
but instead they chose an assThe locals there were saying that Labour could have put a monkey up as a candidate and Labour would have won..
Answer will remain the same. Is there a mandate for Indyref2 when less than 50% voted for SNP who ran mainly on this issue? Sturgeon admitted that not all SNP voters would necessarily support independence but were EU remainers.Look at Catalonia and the problems with not acquiescing to a democratic mandate (and the mess that has been the UK for 3 and a half years). If he rejects it it will fit into their 'being ruled against our will' narrative and make the event more likely in future.
I haven't read anything since early yesterday evening, so sorry if posters have already said the same thing.
Seems obvious that Boris got in because people just didn't see Corbyn as a prime minister, rather than because of Boris or the Conservatives.
Just listened to 5Live and a piece about a staunchly fierce Labour constituency that turned blue. The locals there were saying that Labour could have put a monkey up as a candidate and Labour would have won, but that they felt they just could not vote for Corbyn.
Obvious that Corbyn was a vote loser for Labour, just as Swinson was a vote loser for the Lib Dems.
What also now seems very obvious, is that Labour, as long as they get someone half decent at the helm, will surely win the next election. People are fickle and all analysis says that things will initially be tough under Brexit and that prosperity is somewhere further down the line.
You just watch now as many who voted Leave, start getting on the back on the government and blaming them when they start to struggle.
Whether you are a Brexiteer or not, this is a long term plan to make 'Britain great again' and be 'in control.'
As I say, people can be incredibly fickle.
It was clear Corbyn could not win and he should have stood aside earlier.
Labour have to move more to the centre, whether we are firm socialists or not. Times have changed and the political climate has changed.
I am really not sure that the likes of a Corbynite can ever get into power again. Or am I just being naïve?
I am not certain THEY will fail, but at first Brexit will. Everyone knows it is going take years before any true benefit is seen.I don't think you can call Labour winning the next election until we see who it is. It also depends on how well the Tories do. People are very certain they wil lfail but they may surprise us and strengthen their hold.
The reason the likes of Corbyn can't get into power is because it doesn't work. It really is that simple. People need to get out of this idea that Labour need to move to the centre. Why does it have to be Labour, people are so set in this two party system that there are people who will vote Labour no matter which part of the scale they land on. If you are a centralist go for a more centralist party, or an independent who matches your views.
Admittedly this was a special case election, but the system as it is in general does not work it is a cycle, with the same shit constantly reoccurring.
That's a dangerous game though isn't it? If the 'will of the people' is a referendum and Johnson keeps refusing are they just going to say OK and forget about it?
I am not certain THEY will fail, but at first Brexit will. Everyone knows it is going take years before any true benefit is seen.
The general public is not patient. If the Tories fail it will partly be because Brexit is failing
I am sick to death of the two party system. And for what it's worth, I don't consider myself a Labour supporter. I would say in the last 10 years I hae voted Green, Lib Dem and Labour and even Independent.I don't think you can call Labour winning the next election until we see who it is. It also depends on how well the Tories do. People are very certain they wil lfail but they may surprise us and strengthen their hold.
The reason the likes of Corbyn can't get into power is because it doesn't work. It really is that simple. People need to get out of this idea that Labour need to move to the centre. Why does it have to be Labour, people are so set in this two party system that there are people who will vote Labour no matter which part of the scale they land on. If you are a centralist go for a more centralist party, or an independent who matches your views.
Admittedly this was a special case election, but the system as it is in general does not work it is a cycle, with the same shit constantly reoccurring.
Was thinking the same to be honest. You think a splinter party or two will now form from out of the Labour Party?It won’t make any difference labour are finished
you are Chuka Ummuna, and I claim my £5I am sick to death of the two party system. And for what it's worth, I don't consider myself a Labour supporter. I would say in the last 10 years I hae voted Green, Lib Dem and Labour and even Independent.
I am not a true Labourite at all.
No, at the moment I am more Chuka Thetowelin.you are Chuka Ummuna, and I claim my £5
Answer will remain the same. Is there a mandate for Indyref2 when less than 50% voted for SNP who ran mainly on this issue? Sturgeon admitted that not all SNP voters would necessarily support independence but were EU remainers.
Issue would be far more difficult in that would remain-EU sentiment ultimately triumph over the deeper personal links with the rest of the UK?
EU could offer little encouragement because of the Catalan issue but also many EU states would see that level of interference in domestic policies as unacceptable for their own reasons.
Not sure this is true. Define true benefit? We will probably have 3 years of a Brexit Britain (after this 2 year leave period) before the next election to gauge its effects.I am not certain THEY will fail, but at first Brexit will. Everyone knows it is going take years before any true benefit is seen.
The general public is not patient. If the Tories fail it will partly be because Brexit is failing
I'm not convinced that whoever Labour elect as their next leader won't get the same treatment unless they abandon the left again to go for the Blair type option. Won't be on the same issues of course but they will find a stick of some sort and use it.What also now seems very obvious, is that Labour, as long as they get someone half decent at the helm, will surely win the next election. People are fickle and all analysis says that things will initially be tough under Brexit and that prosperity is somewhere further down the line.
Was thinking the same to be honest. You think a splinter party or two will now form from out of the Labour Party?
It's too broad a church at the moment I feel.
Aren't all the studies saying it will have a negative impact initially? That's what I mean by 'true benefit', that's of course if there is one at all.Not sure this is true. Define true benefit? We will probably have 3 years of a Brexit Britain (after this 2 year leave period) before the next election to gauge its effects.
One nation politics will define the next GE as much as Brexit outcomes.
Might not have to worry about Scotland for too much longer. Time will tell I guess.It’s more the maths. They are 170 seats behind and seem to have completely lost support in Scotland
Aren't all the studies saying it will have a negative impact initially? That's what I mean by 'true benefit', that's of course if there is one.
The plan is a temporary backwards step in order to then go forwards in the future isn't it?
Was thinking the same to be honest. You think a splinter party or two will now form from out of the Labour Party?
It's too broad a church at the moment I feel.
It’s not so long ago people were saying the Tories would split and that would be the end of them. But a minor purge in parliament appears to have made them stronger (for now)
Kinnocks purge of the more extreme labour views followed by Smith and Blair’s reforms gave labour over a decade of success.
There will be change, there will be some breakaways but I wouldn’t write the Labour Party off just yet. They will reform...try and build/extend party at local elections...eat in to Johnson’s majority in 2024 and then possibly win in 10yrs time.
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so you're judging the whole process as a purely economic one?Aren't all the studies saying it will have a negative impact initially? That's what I mean by 'true benefit', that's of course if there is one at all.
The plan is a temporary backwards step in order to then go forwards in the future isn't it?
Get the right conditions, put it to a vote, win the vote, quash any noise going forward.yes, but in reality, can you see Johnson gambling the Union in this way. I can't. He'll have to come up with some sort of solution, I agree, but why would he ever choose that one?
You could argue then that if you're right, now is the time to have that vote, put it completely to bed, and stop it coming up like some hideous wart every so often.Answer will remain the same. Is there a mandate for Indyref2 when less than 50% voted for SNP who ran mainly on this issue? Sturgeon admitted that not all SNP voters would necessarily support independence but were EU remainers.
Issue would be far more difficult in that would remain-EU sentiment ultimately triumph over the deeper personal links with the rest of the UK?
EU could offer little encouragement because of the Catalan issue but also many EU states would see that level of interference in domestic policies as unacceptable for their own reasons.
Not at all.so you're judging the whole process as a purely economic one?
They used to dominate Scotland now they are a London centric party
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