General Election 2019 thread (14 Viewers)

shmmeee · Nov 10, 2019

eastwoodsdustman said:
Thats the probelms with it. Large companies just keep reinvesting for no other reason than to avoid tax and governments need to stop it.
Dividends are taxed now so there's hardly any difference between taking dividends and paying corp tax as opposed to paying a higher salary. Hiking up corp tax will have a negative effect all round except for Labours hard left union backers who'll love it.

Appreciate it may have changed. I found the tax system far too lenient once it treated me as a small business rather than a worker.

26% is lower than France (31%) Germany (29%) and until recently the States at 35%, though it’s now dropped to 21% under Trump and as BSB has said had lead to a massive drop in receipts.

Id support measure to ensure small business owners see no drop in their personal income if below a certain amount. The entire point of Labours intended economic model is to keep the majority’s income high enough to be active participants in as much of the economy as possible. No one on an average income should be seeing any drop and if they do they’ve made a mistake that needs rectifying.

Id hope that a thriving, educated working class would mean a much better environment for you to hire and sell whatever it is you want. It should be win win for everyone. Look at when this city had well paying jobs for working people, the Sky didn’t fall in, we had a thriving music and club scene and a well supported football team because people had money in their pocket. Local business thrived because large multinationals weren’t sucking cash out of the local economy ahead of small business that keeps it in the area. That’s the goal (and corporation tax was above 30% )

eastwoodsdustman · Nov 10, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Which is still less than he would have paying as income tax on the same amount. He’s still on a winner.

Not Really.
Dividends are taxed now so there's hardly any If any at all difference between taking dividends and paying corp tax as opposed to paying a higher salary.

eastwoodsdustman · Nov 10, 2019

shmmeee said:
Appreciate it may have changed. I found the tax system far too lenient once it treated me as a small business rather than a worker.

26% is lower than France (31%) Germany (29%) and until recently the States at 35%, though it’s now dropped to 21% under Trump and as BSB has said had lead to a massive drop in receipts.

Id support measure to ensure small business owners see no drop in their personal income if below a certain amount. The entire point of Labours intended economic model is to keep the majority’s income high enough to be active participants in as much of the economy as possible. No one on an average income should be seeing any drop and if they do they’ve made a mistake that needs rectifying.

Id hope that a thriving, educated working class would mean a much better environment for you to hire and sell whatever it is you want. It should be win win for everyone. Look at when this city had well paying jobs for working people, the Sky didn’t fall in, we had a thriving music and club scene and a well supported football team because people had money in their pocket. Local business thrived because large multinationals weren’t sucking cash out of the local economy ahead of small business that keeps it in the area. That’s the goal (and corporation tax was above 30% )

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is that the time when we had a massively government subsidised car industry? That went well when people realised it couldn’t last forever.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Nov 10, 2019

9 36am Andrew Gwynne from the Labour party interviewed on the Andrew Marr show just said "labour farty". I kid you not.

Vote for labour farty and give the vote back to the people.

skybluetony176 · Nov 10, 2019

eastwoodsdustman said:
Not Really.
Dividends are taxed now so there's hardly any If any at all difference between taking dividends and paying corp tax as opposed to paying a higher salary.

That depends on how much dividends you’re receiving and what you’re paying yourself as a wage. Most people I know who take a dividends pay themselves a wage just under the 40% tax bracket and then pay them self a dividends that takes them way over that. So even at 26% they’re on an earner.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
The hypocrisy on here is bad.

How can you moan about tax dodging companies yet defend the bloke with a top EU job that set up the tax dodging systems? How have still got lots more companies registered than residents?

Hold it hold it. Don't brink Juncker into this. Blah blah blah.

Do point out where I did that.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

eastwoodsdustman said:
is that the time when we had a massively government subsidised car industry? That went well when people realised it couldn’t last forever.

Not in the 1960s it wasn’t.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
I'm surprised you haven't noticed that America under Trump have started trade wars all over the world.

But no. You have a point to make.

So why has it been quiet on here today? Nothing to do with the lies that have been found out from Labour I read about this morning? Thought you would have been all over them as you like the truth to be told.

They have. But the Republicans when passing these huge tax giveaways promised that they would get the lost money back with extras because of the loads of ‘investment’ that would come their way.

They were wrong. In 2018 the tax take was about $300 billion lower than forecast. Their deficit is now going back to what it was at the height of the global recession. If this is happening in the most capitalist and free market loving nation on the planet, what do you think will happen here when we drop our trous-I mean tax rates for big business and the wealthy?

olderskyblue · Nov 10, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Which is still less than he would have paying as income tax on the same amount. He’s still on a winner.

maybe true for a profitable business, but the gap is much closer now. Problem is with new businesses. I have started a few, and when you don’t know what the revenue/profit will be month by month, you pay yourself a minimum amount, then see what profit, if any, at the end of your financial year, and hope to increase your income via dividends. Of course, anyone you employ has to be paid the going rate, and on time. Also, In a small business, additional CT can be a potential stopper to hiring more people.

skybluetony176 · Nov 10, 2019

olderskyblue said:
maybe true for a profitable business, but the gap is much closer now. Problem is with new businesses. I have started a few, and when you don’t know what the revenue/profit will be month by month, you pay yourself a minimum amount, then see what profit, if any, at the end of your financial year, and hope to increase your income via dividends. Of course, anyone you employ has to be paid the going rate, and on time. Also, In a small business, additional CT can be a potential stopper to hiring more people.

Although I get what you’re saying the reality is that the difference on £50k profit a year isn’t even enough to employ 1 person full time on minimum wage and by a long shot. In a sustainable business this isn’t going to be a business killer.

skybluetony176 · Nov 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
They have. But the Republicans when passing these huge tax giveaways promised that they would get the lost money back with extras because of the loads of ‘investment’ that would come their way.

They were wrong. In 2018 the tax take was about $300 billion lower than forecast. Their deficit is now going back to what it was at the height of the global recession. If this is happening in the most capitalist and free market loving nation on the planet, what do you think will happen here when we drop our trous-I mean tax rates for big business and the wealthy?

The big sell to the public also was that the tax cuts would drive up wages as corporations will have more money to spend on wages. This of course has either never happened or not happened to the extent promised to the man in the street. “Surprisingly”.

skybluetony176 · Nov 10, 2019

It’s already starting to smell like the 2017 Conservative campaign. Attack Labour’s plans while not being able to explain their own. Both Sajid Javid and Kwasi Kwarteng have been on TV this morning banging on about how they’ve done their sums on Labour’s manifesto (worth pointing out that it’s not published yet) and it doesn’t add up yet neither could confirm the costs of their own manifesto because they haven’t put the work into adding it up. Just waiting for someone to say magic money tree now.

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Do point out where I did that.

So are you now saying that the EU shouldn't have given a top job to the tax dodge set up person that the UK tried to stop from getting the post? Are you not saying that there are dodgy people at the top of the EU?

No. You say he worked within the rules of tax payments. But you have a go at those who use these schemes. Right or wrong?

And isn't it great how I constantly ask you for evidence of what you allege I have said and you never point it out yet you expect me to prove what you have said. Then when I do you just go quiet.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 10, 2019

eastwoodsdustman said:
So if everyone cranks up their wage and gets rid of every penny in Corp tax the treasury will be worse off again. I've pointed out before, the issue with taxing business isn't the small business its the corporate avoidance. Tighten up on them instead as they'll pay the same amount irrespective of if its 10,19 or 26%.

We've supposedly been trying to do that for years. But somehow those big businesses seem to convince the Treasury these don't apply to them. Usually just after they've taken ministers on very expensive lunches.....

Remember the 'Google' tax? Which after a few months the Treasury decided Google didn't have to pay?

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
So are you now saying that the EU shouldn't have given a top job to the tax dodge set up person that the UK tried to stop from getting the post? Are you not saying that there are dodgy people at the top of the EU?

No. You say he worked within the rules of tax payments. But you have a go at those who use these schemes. Right or wrong?

And isn't it great how I constantly ask you for evidence of what you allege I have said and you never point it out yet you expect me to prove what you have said. Then when I do you just go quiet.

What on Earth are you on about now? You’ve gone off the rails here.

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
They have. But the Republicans when passing these huge tax giveaways promised that they would get the lost money back with extras because of the loads of ‘investment’ that would come their way.

They were wrong. In 2018 the tax take was about $300 billion lower than forecast. Their deficit is now going back to what it was at the height of the global recession. If this is happening in the most capitalist and free market loving nation on the planet, what do you think will happen here when we drop our trous-I mean tax rates for big business and the wealthy?

It is all ongoing. And he is also full of shit. And nearly halving corporation tax will have an effect. It will take years to catch up with what they used to collect. But there will now be a lit more investment and a lot of jobs created. You want our corporation tax to go up by about 50%. That will mean much kess investment. That will mean less jobs.

You seem to have forgotten how the Tories reduced corporation tax and investment shot up creating jobs and meaning more money was collected. Then even more money is collected from extra workers with a job. You then have less to pay out because less are on benefits.

So yes less is collected at first. But the benefits soon catch up. And anything that creates jobs needs to be considered.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 10, 2019

olderskyblue said:
maybe true for a profitable business, but the gap is much closer now. Problem is with new businesses. I have started a few, and when you don’t know what the revenue/profit will be month by month, you pay yourself a minimum amount, then see what profit, if any, at the end of your financial year, and hope to increase your income via dividends. Of course, anyone you employ has to be paid the going rate, and on time. Also, In a small business, additional CT can be a potential stopper to hiring more people.

There was a time when we were setting every sole trader up as a ltd company because it was much more tax efficient, and also advising people to get 'employees' to set themselves up as companies and be paid like that. Those differences have largely been closed either via tax rates or legislation.

With that specific situation there are a few ways they could look at it IMO. Either pay themsleves a large bonus as part of their salary so it counts as income, not dividends or if they can afford to wait look at what they can afford to take out and pay themselves that over the course of the following financial year in their income. This has the advantage of leaving some cash in the business a bit longer just in case of unexpected expenses and they could have the unpaid wages put through as a short-term creditor if they do need to dip into those funds.

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
What on Earth are you on about now? You’ve gone off the rails here.

Not at all. You don't like the truth when you ask for it and get it.

Tax dodging is bad. That is until it is someone who is in something you always defend. The biggest tax dodging scheme starter is in a top position in the EU. Yet he looks into tax dodging in the EU and doesn't look at himself or what he did.

OK. Next subject. You don't like this one now.

olderskyblue · Nov 10, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Although I get what you’re saying the reality is that the difference on £50k profit a year isn’t even enough to employ 1 person full time on minimum wage and by a long shot. In a sustainable business this isn’t going to be a business killer.

You’ve used a number to suit your argument. I could show a number that contradicts it, hence why I said “can be”

Ian1779 · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
It is all ongoing. And he is also full of shit. And nearly halving corporation tax will have an effect. It will take years to catch up with what they used to collect. But there will now be a lit more investment and a lot of jobs created. You want our corporation tax to go up by about 50%. That will mean much kess investment. That will mean less jobs.

You seem to have forgotten how the Tories reduced corporation tax and investment shot up creating jobs and meaning more money was collected. Then even more money is collected from extra workers with a job. You then have less to pay out because less are on benefits.

So yes less is collected at first. But the benefits soon catch up. And anything that creates jobs needs to be considered.

I can’t even begin to imagine the tax receipts generated by all those zero hours contracts. And I’m sure the rise is foodbank use is just unlucky and unrelated.
We are lucky to live in such visionary times.

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

olderskyblue said:
You’ve used a number to suit your argument. I could show a number that contradicts it, hence why I said “can be”

The difference is you know what you are talking about. Some will look at a way of trying to prove you wrong.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
It is all ongoing. And he is also full of shit. And nearly halving corporation tax will have an effect. It will take years to catch up with what they used to collect. But there will now be a lit more investment and a lot of jobs created. You want our corporation tax to go up by about 50%. That will mean much kess investment. That will mean less jobs.

You seem to have forgotten how the Tories reduced corporation tax and investment shot up creating jobs and meaning more money was collected. Then even more money is collected from extra workers with a job. You then have less to pay out because less are on benefits.

So yes less is collected at first. But the benefits soon catch up. And anything that creates jobs needs to be considered.

1. I never argued for corporation tax to increase by that amount.

2. The jobs we have more of now are less well paid, less secure and more temporary.

3. You go on and on about Labour blowing a hole in the deficit and relying on more borrowing. That is exactly what America is having to do more of because of the mass tax giveaways.

You know what would reduce the benefits bill and give more to low income workers? A higher minimum wage. But you don't want that to happen.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
Not at all. You don't like the truth when you ask for it and get it.

Tax dodging is bad. That is until it is someone who is in something you always defend. The biggest tax dodging scheme starter is in a top position in the EU. Yet he looks into tax dodging in the EU and doesn't look at himself or what he did.

OK. Next subject. You don't like this one now.

You're attributing things to me that I've never said and then going 'Aha! See!'. It's what leads me to think you write and respond on auto-pilot.

Otis · Nov 10, 2019

Apologies if this has already been posted.

https://www.facebook.com/

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

Ian1779 said:
I can’t even begin to imagine the tax receipts generated by all those zero hours contracts. And I’m sure the rise is foodbank use is just unlucky and unrelated.
We are lucky to live in such visionary times.

Ah yes food banks. Ah yes zero hour contracts.

I wonder why you never attack the strongest economy in Europe by far for their use of food banks. And you won't have a go at Labour for employing people on zero hour contracts.

Germany’s hidden hunger: On the breadline in Europe’s richest country

skybluetony176 · Nov 10, 2019

olderskyblue said:
You’ve used a number to suit your argument. I could show a number that contradicts it, hence why I said “can be”

TBF I used the number Eastwoods Dustbin used in the original conversation. I appreciate that you could use a number that contradicts it hence I said I understand where you’re coming from but the reality is to lose enough profit from the difference to negate employing someone full time on the higher rate of minimum wage you’re talking of a profit over £150k. I also believe that labour in line with their last manifesto will have a lower rate for smaller businesses anyway.

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You're attributing things to me that I've never said and then going 'Aha! See!'. It's what leads me to think you write and respond on auto-pilot.

And each time I then show you it gets followed by silence on the subject.

Otis · Nov 10, 2019

Boris doesn't half bumble doesn't he.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
And each time I then show you it gets followed by silence on the subject.

This is nauseatingly tedious. You haven't quoted me saying these things, you just make the claim. If I don't reply immediately I'm dodging the subject, if I do I'm keeping an argument going all day.

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

Otis said:
Boris doesn't half bumble doesn't he.

Being very polite today Otis :smuggrin:

He chats shit. He is a Tory politician.

Astute · Nov 10, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
This is nauseatingly tedious. You haven't quoted me saying these things, you just make the claim. If I don't reply immediately I'm dodging the subject, if I do I'm keeping an argument going all day.

Bullshit. Went through this very recently. Proved you wrong yet again. You was supposed to eat your words. Maybe you did and that is why you went silent on the subject.

Immediately? Still waiting for you to reply from a few days ago.

skybluetony176 · Nov 10, 2019

Otis said:
Apologies if this has already been posted.

https://www.facebook.com/

Can’t see it Otis. What does it say.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 10, 2019

Astute said:
Bullshit. Went through this very recently. Proved you wrong yet again. You was supposed to eat your words. Maybe you did and that is why you went silent on the subject.

Immediately? Still waiting for you to reply from a few days ago.

???

Have fun going around in circles and making up straw man arguments. I'll go outside.

Otis · Nov 10, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Can’t see it Otis. What does it say.

Just two speeches. Unrelated topics, but Boris bumbling and not making much sense in his and Corbyn being coherent and clear in his.

skybluetony176 · Nov 10, 2019

Otis said:
Just two speeches. Unrelated topics, but Boris bumbling and not making much sense in his and Corbyn being coherent and clear in his.

Was one his bumbling contradiction of his own policies while visiting Northern Ireland? Even by Boris’ standards it was especially non coherent, bumbling, rambling.

General Election 2019 thread (14 Viewers)

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