General Election (21 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Jun 29, 2017

chiefdave said:
How would it be expenditure. Were they going to hand over more money to the students who hadn't repaid their loans?

My wife has only ever paid a very small percentage of her student loan off as for the first 8years after uni she wasn't earning a great deal and since we started a family ten years ago she hasn't paid any more of at all as she's gone back to work part time and doesn't earn enough to pay anything and I doubt she'll ever go back full time now even when the kids have grown up so her student loan is already as good as written of. When you consider all the other scenarios where people are no longer eligible to pay off their student loan how much would we be writing of in real terms anyway? £30B is a figure on paper only, not sure what the real amount that will/could be collected is but it's nowhere near £30B that's for sure.

SIR ERNIE · Jun 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
A) it wasn't uncosted, you might think it was realistic, you might think it was undeliverable, fair enough, but it wasn't uncosted.

B) A policy isn't a bribe, same as if the tories offered tax cuts in their manifesto, not a bribe.

I'm moaning about the DUP deal because it gives to much leverage to a bunch of swivel eyed creationists and takes the per capita spend well above any other area of the UK, and it won't be the end of it.

<<it wasn't uncosted, you might think it was realistic, you might think it was undeliverable, fair enough, but it wasn't uncosted.>>

No? Well when asked how it would be paid for his reply was; “I don't have the simple answer for it at this stage".

That sounds like it was un-costed to me.

Respected thinktank the Institute for Fiscal Studies said about student debt in May: “One option would be to compensate these students by clearing or reducing their tuition fee debts. “This would be extremely costly, however, as the outstanding stock of loans for these graduates is around £30bn.” Contributions from readers Join the discussion by logging in or registering for a free account. emeryderek_22928 11:26 on 1st June 2017 Corbyn is not "writing off debt." He is transferring it to the national debt which will become even larger. UK economic growth is far too low to match our current liabilities so natinoal debt is rising. Ageing demographics ensures that the gap between future unfunded liabilities and economic growth will grow by compound interest.Corbyn is anti-business which will ensure even lower future economic growth. Are there no politicans that can do maths?"

Anyhow, that's me done on this.

chiefdave · Jun 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
the outstanding stock of loans for these graduates is around £30bn

Only 30% of student debt is repaid and the Conservatives have previously sold student debt at 10% of its book value.

SIR ERNIE said:
It's Friday

One of the most accurate statements you've made on this thread :emoji_smiley:

Nick · Jun 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
Anyhow, that's me done on this. It's Friday and I play golf on Fridays. Have a great weekend.

clint van damme · Jun 29, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
<<it wasn't uncosted, you might think it was realistic, you might think it was undeliverable, fair enough, but it wasn't uncosted.>>

No? Well when asked how it would be paid for his reply was; “I don't have the simple answer for it at this stage".

That sounds like it was un-costed to me.

Respected thinktank the Institute for Fiscal Studies said about student debt in May: “One option would be to compensate these students by clearing or reducing their tuition fee debts. “This would be extremely costly, however, as the outstanding stock of loans for these graduates is around £30bn.” Contributions from readers Join the discussion by logging in or registering for a free account. emeryderek_22928 11:26 on 1st June 2017 Corbyn is not "writing off debt." He is transferring it to the national debt which will become even larger. UK economic growth is far too low to match our current liabilities so natinoal debt is rising. Ageing demographics ensures that the gap between future unfunded liabilities and economic growth will grow by compound interest.Corbyn is anti-business which will ensure even lower future economic growth. Are there no politicans that can do maths?"

Anyhow, that's me done on this. It's Friday and I play golf on Fridays. Have a great weekend.

you're wrong. He said he would like to write off all historical student debt, when asked how he would pay for it he said he didn't know.

Labours manifesto said the would end tuition fees from autumn 2017 to be paid for from a raise in corporation tax at a cost of 5.7 billion so costed, whether you believe those cost to be accurate or not.

Again, that is policy, not a bribe, you don't have to agree, Captain Dart has provided a counter argument about how much the increase in corporate tax would raise, but it is still a costed policy, but carry on deflecting from the main point, the tory bung to the DUP.

You haven't answered the question, is a manifesto promise to cut taxes a bribe?

SIR ERNIE · Jun 29, 2017

chiefdave said:
One of the most accurate statements you've made on this thread :emoji_smiley:

skybluetony176 · Jun 29, 2017

Interesting on Radio 2. Basically saying that the Tories are now labour light because they've basically adopted large parts of the labour manifesto with the amount of u turns they're making and the emergence of the magic money tree they've suddenly found.

SkyblueBazza · Jun 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
all manifestos are bribes going by your logic. This isn't an offer to the electorate it's a deliberate change of policy to cling to number 10.

That's exactly what they are in the cold light of day. Nobody does much unless there is something in it for THEM! That might be anything from financial gain (DUP) to practical help for others to feel good for themselves (Mother Teresa)

In this situation as has been pointed out several times by several people. With this £1b(minimum it now appears) the democratic process has been severely circumnavigated, & the rest of the UK is going to have to pay extra or go without something just to keep the Tories in power. Surely if they wanted to buy support they could've done so with various sweeteners for the electorate...& gained the overall majority they craved?!

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Liquid Gold · Jun 29, 2017

It's all going to fall apart before long. With the EU divorce bill being one of the first things to come up from the negotiations it will tear the Conservatives apart. Either we refuse to pay out and leave and customs union, which no pro Europe MP will vote for, or we pay a huge bill to the EU, which no Brexit MP will want. That's when the government goes into self destruct mode (exactly what May was trying to avoid by calling the election and having a load of grateful new MPs to vote whatever was agreed through). Autumn or spring next election. Labour minority government.

Ian1779 · Jun 29, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
It's all going to fall apart before long. With the EU divorce bill being one of the first things to come up from the negotiations it will tear the Conservatives apart. Either we refuse to pay out and leave and customs union, which no pro Europe MP will vote for, or we pay a huge bill to the EU, which no Brexit MP will want. That's when the government goes into self destruct mode (exactly what May was trying to avoid by calling the election and having a load of grateful new MPs to vote whatever was agreed through). Autumn or spring next election. Labour minority government.

I think if she stays in power that long Labour will have an outright majority on their own.

Liquid Gold · Jun 29, 2017

Ian1779 said:
I think if she stays in power that long Labour will have an outright majority on their own.

I don't know, I feel current Tory policy is to hang on until they can come up with a way they might win. It might be the worst possible option of course and they lose more votes every day but you should never underestimate the Conservative party.

chiefdave · Jun 29, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
It's all going to fall apart before long.

Might not take long. There was supposed to be a vote this afternoon on an amendment put forward by Labour that women from NI who come to the mainland for abortions should have the cost of the procedure covered as they are UK taxpayers.

Of course this was opposed by the DUP and as part of their agreement the Tories were whipping their backbenchers to vote against it. They couldn't get enough of them to agree to vote against so have u-turned to prevent it going to a vote the government would lose. DUP are not going to be happy with the Tories to say the least.

Ian1779 · Jun 29, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
I don't know, I feel current Tory policy is to hang on until they can come up with a way they might win. It might be the worst possible option of course and they lose more votes every day but you should never underestimate the Conservative party.

I think the relevance of the media and their influence is dying right before our eyes... every time they stumble from 1 farce to another they must be losing voters in their droves.

clint van damme · Jun 29, 2017

today in parliament the tories and their allies defeated a motion for the public sector pay cap to be lifted. When the result was read out they cheered.

Just digest that for a moment, they cheered when they denied police, firefighters and nurses, who haven't had a pay rise for several years, any more money.

Just remember that the next time you see a tory MP spewing a vacuous tribute to the emergency services after they've tried to disarm an islamist maniac, or ran into a burning building.

I honestly hope none of the usual apologists try and excuse this behaviour.

Voting it down was one thing, cheering about it is another - absolute scum.

dutchman · Jun 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
today in parliament the tories and their allies defeated a motion for a public the sector pay cap to be lifted. When the result was read out they cheered.

They also cheered when benefit cuts were first announced by George Osborne.

clint van damme · Jun 29, 2017

dutchman said:
They also cheered when benefit cuts were first announced by George Osborne.

I remember Ian Duncan Smith pumping his fists. What a grade A c**t.

clint van damme · Jun 29, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
That's exactly what they are in the cold light of day. Nobody does much unless there is something in it for THEM! That might be anything from financial gain (DUP) to practical help for others to feel good for themselves (Mother Teresa)

In this situation as has been pointed out several times by several people. With this £1b(minimum it now appears) the democratic process has been severely circumnavigated, & the rest of the UK is going to have to pay extra or go without something just to keep the Tories in power. Surely if they wanted to buy support they could've done so with various sweeteners for the electorate...& gained the overall majority they craved?!

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I don't agree they're bribes but you think they are and that's fair enough.
What you can't say is that one parties policy to give something to certain sections of society is a bribe but another party doing the same isn't!
Hypocritical to pick and choose!

wingy · Jun 29, 2017

Did they actually need the DUP yesterday?

Terry Gibson's perm · Jun 29, 2017

wingy said:
Did they actually need the DUP yesterday?

Yes without their votes they would have lost if they had voted the other way.

Brylowes · Jun 29, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
It's all going to fall apart before long. With the EU divorce bill being one of the first things to come up from the negotiations it will tear the Conservatives apart. Either we refuse to pay out and leave and customs union, which no pro Europe MP will vote for, or we pay a huge bill to the EU, which no Brexit MP will want. That's when the government goes into self destruct mode (exactly what May was trying to avoid by calling the election and having a load of grateful new MPs to vote whatever was agreed through). Autumn or spring next election. Labour minority government.

I still think 3/1 on an Election this year is a sound bet, 1st or 2nd Thursday
In October is my guess :emoji_pray:

Liquid Gold · Jun 29, 2017

Brylowes said:
I still think 3/1 on an Election this year is a sound bet, 1st or 2nd Thursday
In October is my guess :emoji_pray:

Where are you getting 3s it's lengthened to 5s at Ladbrokes while 2018 is 7/2

clint van damme · Jun 29, 2017

Brylowes said:
I still think 3/1 on an Election this year is a sound bet, 1st or 2nd Thursday
In October is my guess :emoji_pray:

A lot will depend on long it takes to oust may.
When it starts sinking in that the per capita spend in NI is now a minimum of £217 more per person than in England i think her position will be untenable.

clint van damme · Jun 29, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
Where are you getting 3s it's lengthened to 5s at Ladbrokes while 2018 is 7/2

I think that sounds credible. Couple of months to oust may. Month to select a new leader so we're into October.
3 months for new PM to settle in, election called early next year.

Liquid Gold · Jun 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
I think that sounds credible. Couple of months to oust may. Month to select a new leader so we're into October.
3 months for new PM to settle in, election called early next year.

What's going on with Brexit during all of this?

Brylowes · Jun 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
I think that sounds credible. Couple of months to oust may. Month to select a new leader so we're into October.
3 months for new PM to settle in, election called early next year.

Think May could go in the next 6 weeks, the march in London on Saturday is sure To capture
a lot of headlines around the world.
Some may scoff at that but it all adds pressure to a very wobbly administration, May definitely
Does not stand up well to pressure,
The knives within her own circle are being well and truly sharpened.

SkyblueBazza · Jun 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
I don't agree they're bribes but you think they are and that's fair enough.
What you can't say is that one parties policy to give something to certain sections of society is a bribe but another party doing the same isn't!
Hypocritical to pick and choose!

My criticism is that I had a choice to vote giving money to cover student loans, or school meals, increases in police numbers etc. I have had no choice on funding NI to the initial cost of £1b...but longer term cost when the DUP starts to gain grace & favour rather than bringing down this gov't - that could bring a worst case scenario of partisan terrorism in NI & the mainland again!

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SkyblueBazza · Jun 29, 2017

clint van damme said:
I don't agree they're bribes but you think they are and that's fair enough.
What you can't say is that one parties policy to give something to certain sections of society is a bribe but another party doing the same isn't!
Hypocritical to pick and choose!

BUT additionally, a bribe is 'I will give you this if you do this for me'. How does a political manifesto differ in anything other than the choice of words to describe it? They are ultimately saying 'we will give you this - if you vote for us' to a section of society rather than a small organisation or individual.

To all intent & purpose...the same thing

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Brylowes · Jun 30, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
BUT additionally, a bribe is 'I will give you this if you do this for me'. How does a political manifesto differ in anything other than the choice of words to describe it? They are ultimately saying 'we will give you this - if you vote for us' to a section of society rather than a small organisation or individual.

To all intent & purpose...the same thing

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It most definitely is not the same thing, Manifestos are the plan (hopefully costed) for
The duration of the next government, it will appeal to some but not others.
If anyone on here is trying to tell me that a party's manifesto is in anyway the same
Or similar to what has just taken place between the Conservatives and the DUP I'm
Dumbfounded. This government is a joke, everybody knows it.
It worries me greatly that people can't see the wood for the trees.

Brylowes · Jun 30, 2017

SkyblueBazza said:
BUT additionally, a bribe is 'I will give you this if you do this for me'. How does a political manifesto differ in anything other than the choice of words to describe it? They are ultimately saying 'we will give you this - if you vote for us' to a section of society rather than a small organisation or individual.

To all intent & purpose...the same thing

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So you cannot spot the difference between a manifesto presented by a political party
In the run up to an Election, compared to a release of £1.5 billion From a country with
No funds in the immediate aftermath of one, good luck peeps.

dutchman · Jun 30, 2017

Brylowes said:
Think May could go in the next 6 weeks, the march in London on Saturday is sure To capture
a lot of headlines around the world.

It won't make a blind bit of difference to May and if it gets out of hand could even benefit the Tories.

Brylowes · Jun 30, 2017

dutchman said:
It won't make a blind bit of difference to May and if it gets out of hand could even benefit the Tories.

As I said, some may scoff.

SkyblueBazza · Jun 30, 2017

Brylowes said:
It most definitely is not the same thing, Manifestos are the plan (hopefully costed) for
The duration of the next government, it will appeal to some but not others.
If anyone on here is trying to tell me that a party's manifesto is in anyway the same
Or similar to what has just taken place between the Conservatives and the DUP I'm
Dumbfounded. This government is a joke, everybody knows it.
It worries me greatly that people can't see the wood for the trees.

The bit where you say 'it will appeal' says it all. The cynic in me would argue that a manifesto is a collection of bribes which overall is designed to appeal to the majority of voters. So comes down to the same thing. BUT even if we can't agree on that - we agree that the deal with the DUP to maintain power is an out & out bribe, which nowadays it appears only politicians/politics is immune from prosecution.
If I offered my customers x% of their infrastructure costs should they sign my contract - that'd be unacceptable.

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SkyblueBazza · Jun 30, 2017

Brylowes said:
So you cannot spot the difference between a manifesto presented by a political party
In the run up to an Election, compared to a release of £1.5 billion From a country with
No funds in the immediate aftermath of one, good luck peeps.

In their rawest form they amount to the same thing. Only major difference is that one has been actioned, the other is most unlikely to be actioned anywhere near 75% of what has been offered.

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dadgad · Jun 30, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
. you should never underestimate the Conservative party.

The tragedy is that idiots overestimate them.
They are a totem to ineptitude and corruption, clinging to power by default.

dadgad · Jun 30, 2017

SIR ERNIE said:
<<In every single instance Corbyn appears on the right side of history>>

To make such a ludicrously ill-informed statement, you must either be aged about 18 and blissfully unaware of Corbyn’s shameful past or on a serious wind up.

Keep trying.

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