General Election (2 Viewers)

[RegTheDonk]

There was a guy on radio this morning who reckoned they'd raise £19bn from corporation tax & £6bn from increasing highest rate of income tax, however these assumptions fly in the face of actual experience, they are flawed because they are based on the premise that company & high earners behaviour will not change in response to taxation changes, they will react & the take would be far lower than predicted.

Thing is Cap, it's all forecasting. Just like Osborne forecasted he'd sort the debt/borrowing out by the end of the (last) parliament.

I don't trust either Labour or the Tories to get things on an even keel. It could be argued though that the Tories do their best to make it an uneven keel.

 

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[Captain Dart]

Thing is Cap, it's all forecasting. Just like Osborne forecasted he'd sort the debt/borrowing out by the end of the (last) parliament.

I don't trust either Labour or the Tories to get things on an even keel. It could be argued though that the Tories do their best to make it an uneven keel.

One thing I've learned is that if you radically change a dynamic system it can become unstable. It is more likely you will get to where you want if you move gradually towards the desired state.

 

[Astute]

I can't believe that the same crap arguments are still going on in this thread.

If the EU was putting their people first they would want to guarantee their residency from the start. But all they are interested in is keeping the gravy train going. Tusk thinks we will stay in the end if they put enough pressure on. Merkel wants us to stay as we are one of the few net contributors. Germany does the best best out of the EU. She doesn't want to have to put more money in to cover what we put in. They are all worried about where the shortfall is going to come from.

 

[Sick Boy]

That's it, keep deflecting the blame away from the real culprits. Even in 20 years time many will still be blaming the EU for the country's woes with the Tories sniggering.

The EU has shown that it cares a lot more about both UK and EU citizens in comparison to the UK.

 

[martcov]

I can't believe that the same crap arguments are still going on in this thread.

If the EU was putting their people first they would want to guarantee their residency from the start. But all they are interested in is keeping the gravy train going. Tusk thinks we will stay in the end if they put enough pressure on. Merkel wants us to stay as we are one of the few net contributors. Germany does the best best out of the EU. She doesn't want to have to put more money in to cover what we put in. They are all worried about where the shortfall is going to come from.

Maybe they are worried about any shortfall. Leaving hurts everyone.

The message from Macron and Merkel is reform. Life will go on with or without the U.K.. Just hoping the EU will fail and Europe will be plunged into an economic crisis doesn't mean that will happen. More likely that a stand alone UK will suffer more from a European collapse if it does happen.

The whole world knows that the U.K. Is desperate for trade deals and will see that as a weak negotiating position. The UK is starting from nil. Just look at the grovelling to Saudi and Farage's grovel suggestion with Trump. India already set their visa demands.

Brexit is nothing to be proud of. I certainly don't support it.

 

[skybluetony176]

The vultures are circling

Theresa May has 'hamstrung' David Davis in Brexit talks - BBC News

 

[skybluetony176]

India already set their visa demands.

I was reading something about that the other day. Haven't they basically said that the free movement of goods and services has to be precipitated by free movement of people?

 

[clint van damme]

I was reading something about that the other day. Haven't they basically said that the free movement of goods and services has to be precipitated by free movement of people?

don't think it's free movement but easier movement.
Particularly for those wanting to go to uni here. May put restrictions in place when she was Home secretary and the Indian government wants them rescinded and relaxed further.

Anyone who thinks that post brexit the UK is going to go round the world signing off these great trade deals with all and sundry without having to give much back is deluded.

 

[Sick Boy]

Post-Brexit UK will be in a continued position of weakness and will have to give in to the demands of others. It seems that a few were clinging onto bizarre imperalist fantasies.

 

[martcov]

We are continually learning of new problems caused by Brexit - which is according to Davis as complicated as a moon landing. No guarantee that we don't crash land either. Now its atomic control which we want to leave - not even 100% EU.

The referendum was a yes no question. How many thought they were voting to leave euroatom control? You don't need a lot of imagination to see what leaving this control body and relying solely on our government could lead to.

It's a bit like Trump explaining to his fans that no-one knew how complicated health care is. It seems that no one knew how complicated Brexit is. Now Davis is telling us this - after the referendum. What tossers have led us into this catastrophy? They will go down in history as the cause of the UK's decline.

 

[skybluetony176]

The irony with India is that we already enjoy tariff free trade with India as part of the EU. Because of that TM as home secretary was able to impose restrictions on visas for India and now because we're in a weaker bargaining position to enjoy tariff free trade with India we're going to have to not only rescind those restrictions but also going to have to go further than they needed to be as a member of the EU just to remain on an even keel with trade deals that the EU enjoy with India. Couldn't make this shit up. And people swallowed it.

 

[clint van damme]

We are continually learning of new problems caused by Brexit - which is according to Davis as complicated as a moon landing. No guarantee that we don't crash land either. Now its atomic control which we want to leave - not even 100% EU.

The referendum was a yes no question. How many thought they were voting to leave euroatom control? You don't need a lot of imagination to see what leaving this control body and relying solely on our government could lead to.

It's a bit like Trump explaining to his fans that no-one knew how complicated health care is. It seems that no one knew how complicated Brexit is. Now Davis is telling us this - after the referendum. What tossers have led us into this catastrophy? They will go down in history as the cause of the UK's decline.

I'd never heard of Euratom until the other day. What a complete clusterfuck that sounds like.

 

[Sick Boy]

The Euratom thing is so that the ECJ has zero influence. It will also ensure that it blocks the free movement of highly intelligent individuals on 6 figure salaries paying lots or tax. As we all know though, the UK has had enough of experts.

 

[dadgad]

[QUOTE="Sick Boy, post: 1355814, member: 316")

The EU has shown that it cares a lot more about both UK and EU citizens in comparison to the UK.[/QUOTE]

This is true, 100%
Britain is rapidly becoming a 3rd world backwater, led by buffoons like Boris and landed gentry who want fox hunting and the stocks restored.
Meanwhile, the EU, since its inception has absorbed how many dictatorships into the democratic process?

 

[chiefdave]

Interesting theory.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

We are continually learning of new problems caused by Brexit - which is according to Davis as complicated as a moon landing. No guarantee that we don't crash land either. Now its atomic control which we want to leave - not even 100% EU.

The referendum was a yes no question. How many thought they were voting to leave euroatom control? You don't need a lot of imagination to see what leaving this control body and relying solely on our government could lead to.

It's a bit like Trump explaining to his fans that no-one knew how complicated health care is. It seems that no one knew how complicated Brexit is. Now Davis is telling us this - after the referendum. What tossers have led us into this catastrophy? They will go down in history as the cause of the UK's decline.

No they won't.

Our decline was an inevitable outcome of our ascent. Our ascent was a result of marauding murderers, followed by the favourable trading conditions permitted through fear of military reprisals, followed by the ingenuity of our very own industrial revolution.

Our population ranks 21st (last time I looked) in the world. We are still punching massively above our weight...but other similarly or greater populated economies will catch up & overtake eventually.

The EU long term (200yrs or so imo) would benefit all member states relatively equally but only due to its current massive under performing situation. That equally word above means there is a long term levelling process going on. Quality of life levelling in particular. So money is collected from richer members to distribute to the poorer ones to develop thier infrastructures. That setts it all up nicely for their qol to increase toward that which we enjoy. BUT some of the sharper member states have enterprising people (gasp), that because of the borderless environment - they see a means of simply upping sticks & join an already set up infrastructure & raised qol. Can't blame them for that. That's why we have a sizeable influx of workers to these shores.

There is a much bigger & more prosperous economic place to tap into trading outside of the EU. Trading restrictions for members with those outside of the EU actually restricts EU growth overall imo.

Its a fantastic socialist & economic project that we have thrown a spanner into the works of. We shall not see massive impact on the vast majority of the populace here or in the EU...it will mostly be business as usual with minor changes. I fear for the poor but the rich will stand to gain ever more cash

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[Sick Boy]

The rich gaining more cash from a socialist project?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The rich gaining more cash from a socialist project?

Yes...that's what happens. In every society there are rich & privileged. Do you think as his power grew Lenin, Marx, Stalin or any other socialist leader or a crony of them lived life anything like the peasants, workers or poor in the society they rule(d)

The EU has its own fat cats

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[Captain Dart]

The rich gaining more cash from a socialist project?

Just read Eric Arthur Blairs little satire.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Just read Eric Arthur Blairs little satire.

Are you talking about the same Eric Arthur Blair who fought a war for socialism?

 

[Captain Dart]

Are you talking about the same Eric Arthur Blair who fought a war for socialism?

Or was he fighting against facism?
The novel was published in 1945, by that time he may have changed his mind based on the evidence.

 

[martcov]

No they won't.

Our decline was an inevitable outcome of our ascent. Our ascent was a result of marauding murderers, followed by the favourable trading conditions permitted through fear of military reprisals, followed by the ingenuity of our very own industrial revolution.

Our population ranks 21st (last time I looked) in the world. We are still punching massively above our weight...but other similarly or greater populated economies will catch up & overtake eventually.

The EU long term (200yrs or so imo) would benefit all member states relatively equally but only due to its current massive under performing situation. That equally word above means there is a long term levelling process going on. Quality of life levelling in particular. So money is collected from richer members to distribute to the poorer ones to develop thier infrastructures. That setts it all up nicely for their qol to increase toward that which we enjoy. BUT some of the sharper member states have enterprising people (gasp), that because of the borderless environment - they see a means of simply upping sticks & join an already set up infrastructure & raised qol. Can't blame them for that. That's why we have a sizeable influx of workers to these shores.

There is a much bigger & more prosperous economic place to tap into trading outside of the EU. Trading restrictions for members with those outside of the EU actually restricts EU growth overall imo.

Its a fantastic socialist & economic project that we have thrown a spanner into the works of. We shall not see massive impact on the vast majority of the populace here or in the EU...it will mostly be business as usual with minor changes. I fear for the poor but the rich will stand to gain ever more cash

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If they upsticks to the richer areas in the short term, the taxes they pay should continue to support the poorer areas as you say.The main thing is that neither the UK nor the EU become a Trumpist state run quite openly by billionaires who believe that subsiding the poor condemns the poor to laziness and lack of ambition, and who pursue a course of "non subvention" of poverty in the belief that the poor will solve poverty by educating themselves and working hard and that they are quite entitled to take the benefits of wealth as they - quite conveniently - deserve it.

 

[Grendel]

Are you talking about the same Eric Arthur Blair who fought a war for socialism?

I'm sure it's all hip and dandy using his real name but it has a certain validity as the Eton education aged Mr "Blair" is far more Anthony Lyndon than Jeremy who I'm sure would have liked his grammar school education to land an Eton post but never really had the gravitas.

 

[Sick Boy]

I'm sure it's all hip and dandy using his real name but it has a certain validity as the Eton education aged Mr "Blair" is far more Anthony Lyndon than Jeremy who I'm sure would have liked his grammar school education to land an Eton post but never really had the gravitas.

There's a good chance he will be your next PM. Thought you'd admire him along with thr Brexit poster boys Gove, Farage et al? Suck it up.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Or was he fighting against facism?
The novel was published in 1945, by that time he may have changed his mind based on the evidence.

It's was against Stalinism rather than socialism.

 

[Captain Dart]

It's was against Stalinism rather than socialism.

So where has socialism worked? Nice theory but not practical.

 

[Sick Boy]

So where has socialism worked? Nice theory but not practical.

The notion that the EU is a socialist super-state is absurd. No doubt you refer to it as the EUSSR as well.

 

[Captain Dart]

The notion that the EU is a socialist super-state is absurd. No doubt you refer to it as the EUSSR as well.

Where did that come from?

Its more of a monolithic self perpetuating bureaucratic power bloc.

 

[Grendel]

The notion that the EU is a socialist super-state is absurd. No doubt you refer to it as the EUSSR as well.

No it's a anti democratic federalist movement governed by the super power within it.

It's why real uk socialists are repulsed by it

 

[martcov]

Where did that come from?

Its more of a monolithic self perpetuating bureaucratic power bloc.

How many new burocrats have we employed because of Brexit? How many years does our poer bloc need to entangle us from the EU? What guarantee is there that we will be better off after all that?

 

[Grendel]

How many new burocrats have we employed because of Brexit? How many years does our poer bloc need to entangle us from the EU? What guarantee is there that we will be better off after all that?

Why are you refusing to address the actual point made?

 

[martcov]

No it's a anti democratic federalist movement governed by the super power within it.

It's why real uk socialists are repulsed by it

Bollocks. What is a real socialist? Do you think our Lords and Monarchy are pro democratic movements? Do you think first past the post recognises all voters wishes as opposed to proportional representation?

 

[Captain Dart]

How many new burocrats have we employed because of Brexit? How many years does our poer bloc need to entangle us from the EU? What guarantee is there that we will be better off after all that?

Oh stop your moaning. Its happening.

 

[martcov]

Oh stop your moaning. Its happening.

What? I should stop moaning about too much burocracy serving potentially no valid purpose? No I won't.

 

[Grendel]

Bollocks. What is a real socialist? Do you think our Lords and Monarchy are pro democratic movements? Do you think first past the post recognises all voters wishes as opposed to proportional representation?

The royal family and the lords ultimately cannot make powers. The EU can and does and much of its power base is totally undemocratic

As for proportional representation weren't you one of those squalling about how undemocratic it was when the Tories formed an alliance with a minor party? Happens all the time with PR doesn't it?