George Floyd (15 Viewers)

[mrtrench]

While we are on it let’s also discuss the absurdity of no platforming

I would pretty much guarantee this concept would be endorsed if Nick Griffin posted on this forum

Griffin rose to prominence because of the dumb EU elections and there was outrage when he appeared on Question Time

The appearance sent him and his party into oblivion. He looked strange, he stuttered he was flustered as he’d never had to face the public - the end for him

It’s also a mistake made with Ireland. The dumbing of voices and censorship was stupid. After the Warrington and Brighton massacres the odious duo of Adams and McGuiness should have been prime guests on such a programme. The look of perplexity and fear would have been a joy to behold

Russell Brand was a laughable pathetic revolutionary who believed in his publicity - his experience on question time was a joy. Everyone booed laughed and sniggered. Like Griffin you could see the descending horror on his face as he realised his supporters were a phone box in a nation

So let Mr Robinson have his platform. Let all extremists have it. It finishes them off very quickly

Completely agree. Censorship of speech and the written word are just another tool used by extremists to control the dialogue: usually because they know that their arguments cannot withhold the light being shone upon them. The best way to make abhorrent views insignificant is to encourage them to speak, not to refuse them the right.

 

---

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He crossed a line a long time ago. I don't even remember what he wrote but it was abusive and disrespectful. For the record I think he's the only person I've ever put on ignore.

Interesting to take exception to that considering everything else that's been posted on here. If you'd had an issue I wish you'd have said. Oh well.

 

[Ian1779]

The proportions are hard to judge, I hope many involved are for the right reasons but for many others it's just another marxist grab for power. Some in this forum will be ok with that of course.

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With respect - the Marxist grab for power comment is lazy - maybe we should think about why people believe that it could be an alternative to our capitalist way of life?

I’ve recently been watching some documentaries on Netflix about Vietnam (the wife teaches history) and I was taken aback how much the Americans were prepared to sacrifice to try and stop communism - and they still spectacularly failed. Are we saying that much death was just to protect the American people and not the interests of the very rich and influential?

 

[TomRad85]

With respect - the Marxist grab for power comment is lazy - maybe we should think about why people believe that it could be an alternative to our capitalist way of life?

I’ve recently been watching some documentaries on Netflix about Vietnam (the wife teaches history) and I was taken aback how much the Americans were prepared to sacrifice to try and stop communism - and they still spectacularly failed. Are we saying that much death was just to protect the American people and not the interests of the very rich and influential?

We did think about it at election time tbf, and we said no thanks.

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[clint van damme]

Completely agree. Censorship of speech and the written word are just another tool used by extremists to control the dialogue: usually because they know that their arguments cannot withhold the light being shone upon them. The best way to make abhorrent views insignificant is to encourage them to speak, not to refuse them the right.

In general I agree entirely but I don't think it's quite as simple as let anyone have a platform.
I think most people have lines in the sand.
It's always a good debate to listen to when you have people who can offer something constructive to the argument.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We did think about it at election time tbf, and we said no thanks.

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Most of that was Brexit related.

 

[mrtrench]

With respect - the Marxist grab for power comment is lazy - maybe we should think about why people believe that it could be an alternative to our capitalist way of life?

I’ve recently been watching some documentaries on Netflix about Vietnam (the wife teaches history) and I was taken aback how much the Americans were prepared to sacrifice to try and stop communism - and they still spectacularly failed. Are we saying that much death was just to protect the American people and not the interests of the very rich and influential?

With respect, I disagree that it is lazy. Almost all seizures of power by the Extreme Left have been through chaos and conflict. Some of them know it:



("I've been waiting for this for a generation"). Some agitators sit and wait or actively promote disharmony to bring power closer.

USSR: There was a sustained campaign of stirring up dissatisfaction; rioting and violent theft for years before Lenin finally took power. They were even fighting amongst themselves. The Bolsheviks against the Bundists and the Mensheviks and others.

Mao: A long and slow campaign of sowing unrest. Deliberately didn't honour his agreement to help in the war against the Japanese to stir up more chaos.

Ho Chi Minh: The South of Vietnam didn't want communism, so Ho Chi Minh invaded from the North. I'll come to your point on the USA war later.

Castro: Violent seizure of power. I'm not so genned up on the details.

And so on.

Behind every anti-capitalist riot there are a small number of agitators egging it on and stoking the fire because they know it can bring them control. McDonnell almost explicitly states this and it's very implicit from his statements above.

Being against Communism is not the same thing as supporting McCarthyism and poking your nose into world affairs. With the benefit of hindsight, obviously the USA was wrong. I don't know how it would have felt in context because I wasn't there.

 

[mrtrench]

In general I agree entirely but I don't think it's quite as simple as let anyone have a platform.
I think most people have lines in the sand.

They probably do. I've chosen to mute Brighton but I wouldn't have him banned.

Here's a logic experiment. If you agree that the best way to defeat bad ideas it to let them speak and challenge, then by drawing a line in the sand you are saying that some ideas are so bad that we would prefer they ferment and don't want to discredit them in the light of day.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Completely agree. Censorship of speech and the written word are just another tool used by extremists to control the dialogue: usually because they know that their arguments cannot withhold the light being shone upon them. The best way to make abhorrent views insignificant is to encourage them to speak, not to refuse them the right.

On the whole I agree and there are/have been many instances of the extreme left demanding the silencing of opposing views because they're 'wrong' when as you say the most effective thing is put them front and centre and let them hang themselves.

Problem is it does allow them to spread their hate filled ideology to impressionable/unenquiring minds. I assume you'd be quite happy for a Jihadist to be given the right to speak? Most people would see it for the nonsense and they're making a fool of themselves but only a very very small minority have to be sucked in for it to perpetuate. How does Tommy Robinson have plenty of followers when pretty much everything he says is laughable nonsense? Farage talks complete nonsense 90% of the time and people get drawn in by the personality rather than the policy. Take a Trump or even Johnson speech and have it put through a Stephen Hawking style voice synthesizer and most people would say the person was barely literate.

It's a fine balancing act.

 

[mrtrench]

On the whole I agree and there are/have been many instances of the extreme left demanding the silencing of opposing views because they're 'wrong' when as you say the most effective thing is put them front and centre and let them hang themselves.

Problem is it does allow them to spread their hate filled ideology to impressionable/unenquiring minds. I assume you'd be quite happy for a Jihadist to be given the right to speak? Most people would see it for the nonsense and they're making a fool of themselves but only a very very small minority have to be sucked in for it to perpetuate. How does Tommy Robinson have plenty of followers when pretty much everything he says is laughable nonsense? Farage talks complete nonsense 90% of the time and people get drawn in by the personality rather than the policy. Take a Trump or even Johnson speech and have it put through a Stephen Hawking style voice synthesizer and most people would say the person was barely literate.

It's a fine balancing act.

See my reply to Clint. I'm not suggesting giving them unchallenged party political broadcasts. IMO Jihadists are so successful at recruitment because they aren't on TV being challenged. They work in the shadows where there is nobody to challenge their ideas. If they had to debate with moderate Muslims and politicians I think they'd make fools of themselves and soon alienate themselves from impressionable minds.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

With respect a person whose been putting images of Gammon, refusing to engage in any debate (have you made any attempt to engage with Mr Trench) and sided with absurd trolls like Tony, David and Ring of Steel really has nowhere to go on that accusation

For someone who was quick to reassure me that teachers were drowning in workload during lockdown he has a fair bit of downtime to contribute endlessly on here. Must be extremely well organised is all I can say. Credit where it's due eh ?

 

[clint van damme]

They probably do. I've chosen to mute Brighton but I wouldn't have him banned.

Here's a logic experiment. If you agree that the best way to defeat bad ideas it to let them speak and challenge, then by drawing a line in the sand you are saying that some ideas are so bad that we would prefer they ferment and don't want to discredit them in the light of day.

Yeah, that simple experiment is basically the crux of the argument, but how many people are happy to allow something really unpalatable to be voiced in public?

My one concession, and Grendel touched on it yesterday, anyone deliberately spreading misinformation, especially if it could potentially incite violence, should feel the force of the law.
Have your free speech, voice your opinion, but don't bullshit!

 

[mrtrench]

Oh, bit of news. I've started teaching again. So far I have one private pupil and a gentleman's agreement at a local school for supply work leading to a part-time role once lockdown is ended. Had an absolute blast with my first lesson last week. I love it when the kids understand.

Also planning to move to Devon, so unlikely to increase the number of live games I get to.

 

[mrtrench]

Yeah, that simple experiment is basically the crux of the argument, but how many people are happy to allow something really unpalatable to be voiced in public?

My one concession, and Grendel touched on it yesterday, anyone deliberately spreading misinformation, especially if it could potentially incite violence, should feel the force of the law.
Have your free speech, voice your opinion, but don't bullshit!

They don't have to watch! This is saying that my sensibilities are more important than killing bad ideas.

Punishing bullshitting would see every politician behind bars. Put them on TV and when they bullshit... point, point, point, evidence, evidence, evidence and they are defeated in the eyes of everyone watching.

 

[Sick Boy]

They don't have to watch! This is saying that my sensibilities are more important than killing bad ideas.

Punishing bullshitting would see every politician behind bars. Put them on TV and when they bullshit... point, point, point, evidence, evidence, evidence and they are defeated in the eyes of everyone watching.

To be fair a lot of them seem to get away with it! Maybe some sort of way of eradicating it could be found in a Black Mirror episode

 

[mrtrench]

I'll be back later to catch up. I've started reading all Orwell I hadn't previously read, currently on 'Down and Out in Paris and London'. Off to read and listen to some music... jazz for a Sunday d'ya reckon?

 

[Grendel]

Yeah, that simple experiment is basically the crux of the argument, but how many people are happy to allow something really unpalatable to be voiced in public?

My one concession, and Grendel touched on it yesterday, anyone deliberately spreading misinformation, especially if it could potentially incite violence, should feel the force of the law.
Have your free speech, voice your opinion, but don't bullshit!

No platforming is generally a left wing extremist tactic To avoid discussion

The absurd treatment of Linda Bellos illustrates this perfectly

Bellos is black lesbian and a firebrand 80’s communist. A hated figure on the right and ticked all boxes. As an aside though and an indication of general tolerance it’s with watching an episode of the Littlejohn chat show which Bellos was on and the comments from Michael Winner

Amyway - in today’s progressive society the left seen Ms Bellos as too right wing and no platform her on her obscene views on transgender

The left don’t even want to debate with ideologies that are in some ways aligned

You couldn’t actually make this up

 

[TomRad85]

Oh, bit of news. I've started teaching again. So far I have one private pupil and a gentleman's agreement at a local school for supply work leading to a part-time role once lockdown is ended. Had an absolute blast with my first lesson last week. I love it when the kids understand.

Also planning to move to Devon, so unlikely to increase the number of live games I get to.

Thought about going full time private tutor? My wife does it, makes more money than at a school, works less hours than at a school and doesn't have to deal with all the bullshit at a school. She's never been happier.

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[clint van damme]

They don't have to watch! This is saying that my sensibilities are more important than killing bad ideas.

Punishing bullshitting would see every politician behind bars. Put them on TV and when they bullshit... point, point, point, evidence, evidence, evidence and they are defeated in the eyes of everyone watching.

I agree personally on your first point, but I think you have trouble selling that to the nation. Censorship has always had its champions.

I'd be delighted to jail politicians for lying! But part of the problem is bullshit isn't getting called out enough.
Corona is a prime example, one minister after another getting up and blatantly lying and very little being said about it. I posted a link to and article in the Trump thread on the amount of lies he's told it's quite astonishing.

But my point wasn't just aimed at politicians. We've all got a platform now, so freedom of speech, great, but there needs to be some accountability and responsibility as well and I see a frightening lack of that at the moment and people can say it's the left doing this or the right doing that but if people are honest it's coming from all ends of the political spectrum and beyond politics as people try to settle personal scores.

 

[rob9872]

People should be smart enough to realise that BLM doesn't mean 'only' Black, but for the sake of the intellectually challenged, I still think things would improve if it was rebranded as BLMT with the T as 'too' which it actually means I'm sure anyway, but I genuinely believe that some would be less antagonised if it was pointed out to them that it wasn't saying theirs didn't matter.

 

[vow]

Apologies to everyone else for going off on one there.

Brought me back to fighting people saying my mum isn’t my mum. Don’t need this at 36 years old sat in my garden.

No need for you to apologise at all.

 

[Grendel]

I agree personally on your first point, but I think you have trouble selling that to the nation. Censorship has always had its champions.

I'd be delighted to jail politicians for lying! But part of the problem is bullshit isn't getting called out enough.
Corona is a prime example, one minister after another getting up and blatantly lying and very little being said about it. I posted a link to and article in the Trump thread on the amount of lies he's told it's quite astonishing.

But my point wasn't just aimed at politicians. We've all got a platform now, so freedom of speech, great, but there needs to be some accountability and responsibility as well and I see a frightening lack of that at the moment and people can say it's the left doing this or the right doing that but if people are honest it's coming from all ends of the political spectrum and beyond politics as people try to settle personal scores.

Jailing politicians for lying is absurd

like it or not the £350m was not a lie but the remain argument of being I think it was £4,000 a year was.

The oversimplification is statistics to “prove” the uk has higher deaths is an example of not lying but knowing full well it’s a political message by putting simple fudged analysis to obtain a pre ordained outcome

Jeremy Corbin I’m pretty certain lies when he said he wanted the remain campaign to win the referendum. John McDonnell found sorry suddenly a very easy word when he never uttered it before regarding his desire for the Irish bombing and the murderibg of thatcher (it was a joke you see)

It’s a pointless persuit or Mr Corbyn, Mr Campbell, Mr Blair, Mr Clegg would already have the cells filled

 

[clint van damme]

Jailing politicians for lying is absurd

like it or not the £350m was not a lie but the remain argument of being I think it was £4,000 a year was.

The oversimplification is statistics to “prove” the uk has higher deaths is an example of not lying but knowing full well it’s a political message by putting simple fudged analysis to obtain a pre ordained outcome

Jeremy Corbin I’m pretty certain lies when he said he wanted the remain campaign to win the referendum. John McDonnell found sorry suddenly a very easy word when he never uttered it before regarding his desire for the Irish bombing and the murderibg of thatcher (it was a joke you see)

It’s a pointless persuit or Mr Corbyn, Mr Campbell, Mr Blair, Mr Clegg would already have the cells filled

I wasn't serious about jailing the FFS.

But their bollocks needs far more scrutiny than it's getting. I'm not sure why you're bringing Corbyn and McDonnell into it. A) they've both gone and B) I'm not suggesting only tory MPs are subject to more scrutiny, I'm suggesting they all need it.

You partisan politics shines through as usual. When someone on the left doctored a social media video yesterday you called for them being jailed. You don't want sensible discourse on the way forward you just want a stick to beat the left with.

 

[vow]

I'll make a thread when I'm at my laptop about it all, warning everybody.

The silly bickering and avatars don't really help so they will be banned too if people abuse them.

Is it possible to restrict avatars to a pre-approved selection? Old kits, badges, that sexy pic of Cobi Jones. Actually, forget the kits and badges

Nooooooo!

I feel my avatar should be the default when you join....

 

[David O'Day]

Grenners remember the offer. Charity boxing match

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[mrtrench]

Thought about going full time private tutor? My wife does it, makes more money than at a school, works less hours than at a school and doesn't have to deal with all the bullshit at a school. She's never been happier.

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Back years ago when I was a teacher earning a pittance I did loads - over 10 hours per week. It's what dragged us out of relative poverty. I'm retired now; it's not about the money but about helping kids and also because I like seeing them succeed. Loads of people are frightened of maths and I like to think that I can remove that fear and get them to enjoy it. I'll probably end up with 5 or so if I'm not in a school. I don't want so many that I cannot read or work in the garden.

 

[TomRad85]

Back years ago when I was a teacher earning a pittance I did loads - over 10 hours per week. It's what dragged us out of relative poverty. I'm retired now; it's not about the money but about helping kids and also because I like seeing them succeed. Loads of people are frightened of maths and I like to think that I can remove that fear and get them to enjoy it. I'll probably end up with 5 or so if I'm not in a school. I don't want so many that I cannot read or work in the garden.

Ah I didn't realise you were a little older. Still though, a bit of pocket money is always nice.

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[Grendel]

Oooooh, what a rebel you are.
But why would you do that ? Just to shock ?
You sound like you rather miss the bombings and "struggle" of the 1970s ,80s and 90s and want to simply rake it up on here.
You should grow up, get a hobby and get that chip off your shoulder.

David should do a competition of spot the murdering scum bag everyday. Patrick Magee on Monday and John Downey Tuesday - perhaps by Friday he can do a cryptic quiz - what is the smallest beach in the world? Answer Bobby Sands.

I can run a sidebar competition with serial killers such as BTK, the Boston Strangler and Ian Huntley

It’s all a laugh and in the best possible taste of course

 

[hill83]

No need for you to apologise at all.

Fine fuck you all then :happy:

 

[hill83]

Had a bit of this conversation earlier in the thread in response to the denying people a platform. Nick Griffin was used as an example so I’ll continue to use him him as an example. Why should I have to see someone who actually thinks I shouldn’t exist as a person on my tv. Ok so he dug his own grave so to speak, but I guarantee a lot of people agreed with what he was saying.

The post earlier about ISIS was a great example. Should we give them a party political broadcast on bbc at 6:00pm on a Friday? Of course we shouldn’t.

Slight bit of whataboutary but what’s good for the goose etc.

 

[hill83]

I can also see why denying someone a platform could be a bad idea. But as far as I’m concerned if you are a bigoted c**t. Tommy Robinson, ISIS, Griffin, or subscribe to their ideologies. I don’t give a fuck. Fuck off.

 

[TomRad85]

Had a bit of this conversation earlier in the thread in response to the denying people a platform. Nick Griffin was used as an example so I’ll continue to use him him as an example. Why should I have to see someone who actually thinks I shouldn’t exist as a person on my tv. Ok so he dug his own grave so to speak, but I guarantee a lot of people agreed with what he was saying.

The post earlier about ISIS was a great example. Should we give them a party political broadcast on bbc at 6:00pm on a Friday? Of course we shouldn’t.

Slight bit of whataboutary but what’s good for the goose etc.

I don't think a lot of people did agree with Griffin, hence he disappeared off the face of the earth and hence why I think the majority of people in this country are actually when it comes down to it, good people.

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[hill83]

I don't think a lot of people did agree with Griffin, hence he disappeared off the face of the earth and hence why I think the majority of people in this country are actually when it comes down to it, good people.

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I agree. But I consider 500 a lot. And all those bellends yesterday would be stood right next to him and that was more than 500.

 

[TomRad85]

I agree. But I consider 500 a lot. And all those bellends yesterday would be stood right next to him and that was more than 500.

Oh it's a lot when they are all stood together but when it comes down to percentages of a population, I can't be arsed to work out figures, but its tiny.

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[Tommo1993]

Grenners remember the offer. Charity boxing match

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Can’t we all do a charity free for all, in an enlarged boxing ring. A mass free for all. The SBT royal rumble.