RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
What was the excuse that time when the "consortium" was spotted having a meeting with Eastwood ... Hoff was trying to get his daughter into their netball team?
Haskell / ACL / Trust / CCFC Administration (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
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Nick
Administrator
That's the one, Joe Elliott went along too.
Rod Liddle wrote a good ar
Rod Liddle (forget his politics) in the Sunday Times wrote the best article I've seen on our situation in June last year
Cut and pasted again below
Stung again — spare a thought for homeless Coventry City as Wasps row rumbles on
It is 18 years since Coventry City last played in the Premier League, during which time they have come close to extinction, played in the lowest tier for the first time since 1959 and generally had a fairly awful time of it.
Last season gave fans a few reasons for optimism — manager Mark Robins had assembled a decent squad and a late run took them close to a place in the League One playoffs. But now, this. For the second time in the past 18 years, the Sky Blues are without a home of their own and will be playing next season’s home fixtures at St Andrew’s, in Birmingham, 21 miles away.
The club’s owners, the London hedge fund SISU, have failed to strike a deal with Wasps rugby union team, who play at — and own — the Ricoh Arena. Back in 2013-14 City played their home games at Sixfields stadium, home of Northampton Town, more than 32 miles distant. They had hoped those bad old days were gone. The decision to play at St Andrew’s was again a last-ditch attempt to prevent the club being expelled from the Football League on account of having nowhere to play.
Feeling blue: Coventry fans will once again have to make a long journey to watch their beloved sideMARC ATKINS
A spokesman for SISU said “we are incredibly disappointed and frustrated” that no deal could be struck over the Ricoh Arena. Not as frustrated as the EFL — which agreed to the ground share with Birmingham City only with great reluctance — or, of course, the benighted fans. Last season Coventry City were the fifth best supported club in League One, with an average home attendance of 12,362, an improvement on the previous season’s average of 9,255. They will be very lucky to achieve half of that number next season: their average home league attendance while playing at Northampton’s ground was scarcely over 2,000.
The problems are myriad and complex. A long-standing row over the sale of the Ricoh Arena to Wasps rumbles on and is coming before the European Commission. City believe the ground was grossly undervalued when it was sold, to the tune of about £28m. But that is only the half of it.
Wasps are, on the face of it, an extremely successful rugby union club. They finished eighth in the Gallagher Premiership last season with an average attendance of 17,975 — a figure beaten only by Leicester Tigers. But their financial position is far more perilous than that of Coventry City and, frankly, they will be fortunate if they are in existence by the this time next year. Their debts, for a rugby club, are astonishing — £55.8m at the latest count after their pre-tax losses last season more than doubled to £9.7m.
The total owed to their Irish owner Derek Richardson, who six years ago rescued them from bankruptcy at the last minute, rose to £18.6m, which some estimate to be at least a third of the chap’s worth.
Worse still, Wasps now face a serious inquiry into alleged financial shenanigans, involving suggestions of grossly overstated profits, a breach of covenants regarding bonds and effectively lying about a million quid or so which Wasps marked down as capital revenue when actually it was another bung from the uniquely generous Richardson.
Meanwhile, hanging over them is the legal action that insists they got the Ricoh on the cheap. If I were a Wasps fan I would be looking at the relatively stable Coventry City with a degree of envy: City’s latest losses were less than £2m, which is around about what you might expect for a decent sized club in the third tier.
The Sky Blues supporters are, of course, beside themselves with fury that they will not be able to watch their team play in their home city and have been apt to blame the owners, as is so often the case.
This seems to me a bit harsh. Without the intervention of the hedge fund monkeys, Coventry City would not exist at all and SISU have put an awful lot of money into the club, without seeing very much in the way of a return.
Again one is tempted to ask why they have done this, but as they are all financial experts I suppose they must know what they are doing.
League One is rapidly becoming a sanctum of the lost and the dispossessed, given the travails of poor Bolton Wanderers.
There was a time, fairly recently, when Coventry City had the longest unbroken spell in the top tier of any club, Arsenal and Everton excepted — 34 years of pleasant over-achievement that included a memorable FA Cup final win over Tottenham Hotspur in 1987, participation in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and a two-legged tie against Bayern Munich, and a top-six finish. And that delightful goal off a free kick scored by Ernie Hunt after Willie Carr’s illegal flick-up, which we all tried to copy in the playground.
Sentimentalists such as me, then, rather hope that Coventry’s problems come to an end very quickly. There is the suggestion now that City’s owners may attempt to build a new ground somewhere in the environs of Coventry. In which case, what on earth will happen to the Ricoh Arena if Wasps go bust? Or even if they don’t? It seems a little bit profligate in these straitened times.
Why does Rod Liddle have this level of knowledge and insight into our situation? And why did he feel moved to write a lengthy article in The Times about it? (I don't disagree with the article, I'm just genuinely curious as to his motivation here!)
better days
Well-Known Member
Would be nice if they did! In a world where local journalism has been basically gutted, there isn't much hope for the local rags doing it, and it's not as if national readers are gagging for 1000 words on municipal politics in Coventry. Which is why I was wondering who/what Liddle knows that got him so interested.
shepardo01
Well-Known Member
Would this link in with the Trust/Wasps trying to force the idea that the EU complaint could be asked to be dropped...
Keep that out there, put pressure on the Club/Sisu.... keep people "frothing"... "its all SISUs fault etc.....
Reading between the lines, I'd guess Linell is/was in on all of this too...
Nick
Administrator
Linnell is good mates with Hoffman, hard to say exactly if he knew to be honest but it's naive to think he didn't have an idea.
Orca
Well-Known Member
American Tycoon eyes Sky Blues - but Sisu have options
UNITED States property tycoon Preston Haskell IV has emerged as the man waiting in the wings to swoop for Coventry City should the club be placed in administration on Friday
Still available
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
SISU
get rid of Wasps, get rid of the stadium issue.Rod Liddle wrote a good ar
Rod Liddle (forget his politics) in the Sunday Times wrote the best article I've seen on our situation in June last year
Cut and pasted again below
Stung again — spare a thought for homeless Coventry City as Wasps row rumbles on
It is 18 years since Coventry City last played in the Premier League, during which time they have come close to extinction, played in the lowest tier for the first time since 1959 and generally had a fairly awful time of it.
Last season gave fans a few reasons for optimism — manager Mark Robins had assembled a decent squad and a late run took them close to a place in the League One playoffs. But now, this. For the second time in the past 18 years, the Sky Blues are without a home of their own and will be playing next season’s home fixtures at St Andrew’s, in Birmingham, 21 miles away.
The club’s owners, the London hedge fund SISU, have failed to strike a deal with Wasps rugby union team, who play at — and own — the Ricoh Arena. Back in 2013-14 City played their home games at Sixfields stadium, home of Northampton Town, more than 32 miles distant. They had hoped those bad old days were gone. The decision to play at St Andrew’s was again a last-ditch attempt to prevent the club being expelled from the Football League on account of having nowhere to play.
Feeling blue: Coventry fans will once again have to make a long journey to watch their beloved sideMARC ATKINS
A spokesman for SISU said “we are incredibly disappointed and frustrated” that no deal could be struck over the Ricoh Arena. Not as frustrated as the EFL — which agreed to the ground share with Birmingham City only with great reluctance — or, of course, the benighted fans. Last season Coventry City were the fifth best supported club in League One, with an average home attendance of 12,362, an improvement on the previous season’s average of 9,255. They will be very lucky to achieve half of that number next season: their average home league attendance while playing at Northampton’s ground was scarcely over 2,000.
The problems are myriad and complex. A long-standing row over the sale of the Ricoh Arena to Wasps rumbles on and is coming before the European Commission. City believe the ground was grossly undervalued when it was sold, to the tune of about £28m. But that is only the half of it.
Wasps are, on the face of it, an extremely successful rugby union club. They finished eighth in the Gallagher Premiership last season with an average attendance of 17,975 — a figure beaten only by Leicester Tigers. But their financial position is far more perilous than that of Coventry City and, frankly, they will be fortunate if they are in existence by the this time next year. Their debts, for a rugby club, are astonishing — £55.8m at the latest count after their pre-tax losses last season more than doubled to £9.7m.
The total owed to their Irish owner Derek Richardson, who six years ago rescued them from bankruptcy at the last minute, rose to £18.6m, which some estimate to be at least a third of the chap’s worth.
Worse still, Wasps now face a serious inquiry into alleged financial shenanigans, involving suggestions of grossly overstated profits, a breach of covenants regarding bonds and effectively lying about a million quid or so which Wasps marked down as capital revenue when actually it was another bung from the uniquely generous Richardson.
Meanwhile, hanging over them is the legal action that insists they got the Ricoh on the cheap. If I were a Wasps fan I would be looking at the relatively stable Coventry City with a degree of envy: City’s latest losses were less than £2m, which is around about what you might expect for a decent sized club in the third tier.
The Sky Blues supporters are, of course, beside themselves with fury that they will not be able to watch their team play in their home city and have been apt to blame the owners, as is so often the case.
This seems to me a bit harsh. Without the intervention of the hedge fund monkeys, Coventry City would not exist at all and SISU have put an awful lot of money into the club, without seeing very much in the way of a return.
Again one is tempted to ask why they have done this, but as they are all financial experts I suppose they must know what they are doing.
League One is rapidly becoming a sanctum of the lost and the dispossessed, given the travails of poor Bolton Wanderers.
There was a time, fairly recently, when Coventry City had the longest unbroken spell in the top tier of any club, Arsenal and Everton excepted — 34 years of pleasant over-achievement that included a memorable FA Cup final win over Tottenham Hotspur in 1987, participation in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and a two-legged tie against Bayern Munich, and a top-six finish. And that delightful goal off a free kick scored by Ernie Hunt after Willie Carr’s illegal flick-up, which we all tried to copy in the playground.
Sentimentalists such as me, then, rather hope that Coventry’s problems come to an end very quickly. There is the suggestion now that City’s owners may attempt to build a new ground somewhere in the environs of Coventry. In which case, what on earth will happen to the Ricoh Arena if Wasps go bust? Or even if they don’t? It seems a little bit profligate in these straitened times.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
How does that work? Just because Wasps are gone doesn't mean CCFC or its owners will end up with it.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t. It puts us back to 2014 or whatever. It’s just emotional angst, not a genuine plan to get us back if we’re honest.
Nick
Administrator
To be fair, that does put is in a better position than now as it means a potential new owner has the option to take the Ricoh on too if they wanted too.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
If we had a new owner I doubt there’d be any problems anyway if I’m honest. That’s what depresses me so much. I can’t see Sisu selling and I can’t see their strategy working. I just hope a new ground is really on the way.
But on the Wasps point, I may be wrong but I just can’t see them vanishing into the night. They’re here until they literally disappear off the face of the earth and I can’t see that happening to a top level sports team. We’ve all seen how long clubs can limp on with basket case finances.
HuckerbyDublinWhelan
Well-Known Member
Difference is, with a football club, there’s a magic pot of gold at the end at it all no matter how improbable (the premier league)
there isn’t in rugby
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
It’s sport though innit? There’s always someone willing to take a punt for the ego massage. As I say I don’t know egg chasing at all so you could be right, it just seems more of a hope than an expectation
HuckerbyDublinWhelan
Well-Known Member
Put it this way - if Wasps were to go pop, sky sports would have it as a passing thing .
If we were to go bust there would be a 3 page spread in every paper as to how the EFL have messed up and interviews for a week.
rugby is just a 3rd tier sport in this country that nobody really cares about. So yes whilst someone would take a punt on an ailing football club it’s doubtful anyone would take a 50m debt for a rugby club that will never pay back the investment
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Early days oif professionalism, admittedly, but Richmond are a decent parallel. Went pro backed by people, moved to a bigger ground... went bust, and retreated back to lower level status and their old ground.
Other examples of going pop would be Orrell (Dave Whelan bought their ground and kicked them out so it became training pitches!) and Bedford (CRFC tried to buy them, to buy their place in the top flight!).
Now that is, admittedly, a relative while ago from now. It is however why the top level clubs keep rumbling about wanting to stop promotion and relegation - ''protect their investments'
Rugby's definitely more of a risk than football as the emotional ties of a volume of fans aren't there, apart from certain clubs (which ironically would probably include CRFC!)Wasps amateurs still exist in London. The obvious fallback is the great experiment fails, and they regroup under that banner, and end up Rosslyn Park level, or similar grand old clubs who aren't at the top anymore.
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Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Early days oif professionalism, admittedly, but Richmond are a decent parallel. Went pro backed by people, moved to a bigger ground... went bust, and retreated back to lower level status and their old ground.
Other examples of going pop would be Orrell (Dave Whelan bought their ground and kicked them out so it became training pitches!) and Bedford (CRFC tried to buy them, to buy their place in the top flight!).
Now that is, admittedly, a relative while ago from now. It is however why the top level clubs keep rumbling about wanting to stop promotion and relegation - ''protect their investments'
Wasps amateurs still exist in London. The obvious fallback is the great experiment fails, and they regroup under that banner, and end up Rosslyn Park level, or similar grand old clubs who aren't at the top anymore.
The emotional attachment for Wasps just isn’t there. Even if it was, a 32.5k seater stadium is too big for a rugby club.
My little brother supports Wasps (academy and all that), so I’ve had 3 free tickets to take him this season. Had it not been for the business with CCFC-Wasps, I’d be happy to go to the odd game I could. I imagine there’s a sizeable community that feel this way in Coventry - this is damaging Wasps too (thankfully).
Anyway, the attendances have plummeted, each time I was there, I doubt there was more than 9,000 filling that stadium. Essentially, back to square 1 when they were ground sharing with Wycombe. Back when they were ‘on the verge of admin’ and losing £3m a year and now they’re saddled with the RICOH and losing £10m per year.
Frankly, I can’t see how this sustainable.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
It's all relative though isn't it. Massive pot of gold in football, massive moneypit in players wages and transfer fees.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Not really no. Football has huge Global appeal and massive TV rights which will get bigger and bigger. I would suspect the TV deals for Rugby will actually decline. Its modelled itself on football with no hope of competing. It will go bust at some point as a sport as its not even at the levels of appeal as cricket in terms of marketability
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
And as a game it is getting less entertaining, the players are all too big. I think of that brilliant Gareth Edwards try from the 70s and it just wouldn't happen in today's game:
tisza
Well-Known Member
Can see it going same way as cricket. Big demand/interest in national team. Dwindling support for the club game - hence 20/20, the Hundred etc.
It's just not a game with even nationwide appeal. 13 properly professional clubs yet av. attendances around 11k and a TV audience less than 200k for live games. Only 2 clubs north of Leicester. Even the 2nd city can't support a professional rugby team.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I know you won't like me, but it's a bit of a twist, that. They won't like me lumping them together but that, historically, is why the top union clubs are southern, and the top league clubs are northern. The appeal for Rugby is national.
Think of it like having a number of boxing regulatory bodies!
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Even then the northern RL clubs are in a cluster around the M62 motorway. The southern RU clubs are more spread out but still not exactly representative of the breadth of southern England.
Peter Billing
Well-Known Member
Is it quite back to 2014 and square one though? The landscape is quite a bit different. As the Council got their money out, the £14m Council/Yorkshire bank loan isn't in the equation anymore, that hurdle is gone. Plus any potential outside buyers are not now looking at the unproven potential of an under utilised Council run asset, they can look at all the evidence of 6 years of Wasps financial results, not sure who is going to look at that and want a piece of the action honestly.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Maybe. I worry Sisu still wouldn’t want it at market value. I just remember everyone thinking this before Wasps came.
Nick
Administrator
The same as Wasps didn't want it at market value?
The funny thing is, everybody whinging about what SISU were going to do sat back and watched Wasps do the exact thing.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Wasps bought it at market value and bought a long lease rather than insisting on an unencumbered freehold and a dodgy debt deal. CCFC always had first option and could’ve bought the Higgs shares at the same price whenever they wanted. They never wanted. They repeatedly said they didn’t want.
Whenever a deal is close for a ground or a rental deal or a piece of land, Seppala drops in and scuppers it.
Wasps didn’t get the Ricoh because of an evil cabal of councillors mate. They just went in an negotiated properly and followed through. Sisu could’ve done that at any time.
I think @Peter Billing is right, their hand probably is stronger if CCCs only options are Sisu or open market (where no one will want it), I just see nothing to suggest that’ll be enough and Seppala won’t drop in and decide to wait it out and bust ACL or whatever instead of just making a bid.
Stupid games. Stupid prizes.
HuckerbyDublinWhelan
Well-Known Member
I’d imagine the difference is - it’s not state aid if they publically shop the Ricoh and see who the highest bidder is?
Wasps was done in secret and not offered to anyone else to see if they could get more
Wasps was done in secret and not offered to anyone else to see if they could get more
NortonSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
All sports are going to have to evaluate where they are and what the future holds after the current pandemic is over/contained/conveniently ignored. It would be folly to assume that things will just get back to normal.
Those that say that Wasps will be dead and buried are delusional. They are a very strong brand with partners we can only dream of. They are distressed no doubt but have a valuable asset and we don’t.
We are the club whose own city has turned its back on it and we are the ones with owners that have no qualms about taking the club on a magical tour of midlands grounds.
If we are to get back to Coventry it will be with the consent of Wasps and as much as I hate that I would much rather be in Wasps shoes than ours.
Can you imagine where we would be if there was a relegation battle and no corona virus last season?
Those that say that Wasps will be dead and buried are delusional. They are a very strong brand with partners we can only dream of. They are distressed no doubt but have a valuable asset and we don’t.
We are the club whose own city has turned its back on it and we are the ones with owners that have no qualms about taking the club on a magical tour of midlands grounds.
If we are to get back to Coventry it will be with the consent of Wasps and as much as I hate that I would much rather be in Wasps shoes than ours.
Can you imagine where we would be if there was a relegation battle and no corona virus last season?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Factually incorrect and of course Wasps would have paid nothing in isolation for those shares
Grendel
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by partners we could only dream of?
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter how big their partners or brand are, they're losing £10m a year when £60m in debt and £35m of that due to be repaid in less than two years.
tisza
Well-Known Member
But it's 2 different sports and TV contracts reflect that. It's not like league fans are flocking to Union games and vice versa during the respective close seasons.
The point with all this is that Rugby doesn't have the commercial appeal. Super League kept alive by Sky Money even with a salary cap
.
My point on Rugby income/popularity is that a stadium the size of the Ricoh was always going to be too big for a Rugby club. Wasps thought they were going to transformed into biggest Rugby club in Europe with huge crowds.
My argument is those markets aren't there on a consistent basis.