Higgs statement (2 Viewers)

[olderskyblue]

Could Wasps veto the sale to CCFC Ltd? I believe the council could have ?

Just asking, as I haven't a clue.... (about this or anything else - thought I would say this before anyone else did...)

 

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[oldskyblue58]

Am not an insolvency expert but as I see it.............

CCFC Ltd still exists. Other than keeping the option live I see no real reason why it hasn't been wound up previously.

Its only asset is the option to make the first bid on the Higgs Charity. The formula included in the option can not be utilised because of the debts owed to ACL by CCFC Ltd

Against that asset is set all the creditors. The administration listed the following creditors ACL £636K ARVO 10.2m CCFC Holdings 44.7m SBS&L 14.5m

The proposed CVA that was rejected August 2013 has no effect on those values so the write off of loans by SISU are ignored unless they offer to do that again - ie the amounts stay at full value.

What I am less certain of is the value of the ACL creditor that may well be reinstated under the liquidation at the full contractual value in excess of 56m. Also has the liquidation of CCFC H removed that 44.7m debt from the equation or did Otium acquire the rights to that debt?

If, as I believe the full value of the ACL contract is now included in the list of creditors then that puts ACL in a far stronger position when deciding a creditors settlement - in fact they could even be the biggest creditor. ACL are of course now owned by the Charity and Wasps

The option remains in CCFC Ltd and can not be transferred without the Charity Trustees permission. CCFC Ltd has no funds to make a bid. To bring funds in to CCFC ltd you have to sell it and do a deal with its creditors - all apparently within 30 days.

For a third party to acquire the rights under the option then they would have to purchase CCFC Ltd from the liquidator and to complete a settlement (CVA?) with its creditors before making a bid for the shares the Charity own. That bid is not guaranteed to succeed, it can be rejected by the charity and as I understand it once the option is used then you cant go back and reuse it - ie the option dies.

Would either Otium or SBS&L be a third party? Well it depends where the shares in CCFC Ltd now reside and that is not clear. They could write off their loans in CCFC H and SBS&L in any settlement but that then leaves the ARVO and ACL plus HMRC. Write down the CCFC H & SBSL loans and ACL could be the biggest creditor and be in control of the process.

Add in the possibility of a Wasp veto of any share sale - speculation no facts released on that - but it could be

I would imagine there are feverish discussions between lawyers, advisors and liquidators going on right now as to how to get round all this. Also that they keep hitting brick walls

Can't help but think that this is keeping to the letter of the law, so that any sale can not be challenged and that ownership by anyone other than Wasps is a non starter.

Sorry to disappoint peoples hopes but I don't see CCFC owning 50%

But we will shall see. Clock ticking again.......

 

[Grendel]

Could Wasps veto the sale to CCFC Ltd? I believe the council could have ?

Just asking, as I haven't a clue.... (about this or anything else - thought I would say this before anyone else did...)

Its a good question and the transfer of right to veto I believe has happened so in theory one must assume yes - I wonder who their preferred bidder is

 

[olderskyblue]

Its a good question and the transfer of right to veto I believe has happened so in theory one must assume yes - I wonder who their preferred bidder is

As I said, I haven't a clue...

 

[Wheelfass]

Am not an insolvency expert but as I see it.............

CCFC Ltd still exists. Other than keeping the option live I see no real reason why it hasn't been wound up previously.

Its only asset is the option to make the first bid on the Higgs Charity. The formula included in the option can not be utilised because of the debts owed to ACL by CCFC Ltd

Against that asset is set all the creditors. The administration listed the following creditors ACL £636K ARVO 10.2m CCFC Holdings 44.7m SBS&L 14.5m

The proposed CVA that was rejected August 2013 has no effect on those values so the write off of loans by SISU are ignored unless they offer to do that again - ie the amounts stay at full value.

What I am less certain of is the value of the ACL creditor that may well be reinstated under the liquidation at the full contractual value in excess of 56m. Also has the liquidation of CCFC H removed that 44.7m debt from the equation or did Otium acquire the rights to that debt?

If, as I believe the full value of the ACL contract is now included in the list of creditors then that puts ACL in a far stronger position when deciding a creditors settlement - in fact they could even be the biggest creditor. ACL are of course now owned by the Charity and Wasps

The option remains in CCFC Ltd and can not be transferred without the Charity Trustees permission. CCFC Ltd has no funds to make a bid. To bring funds in to CCFC ltd you have to sell it and do a deal with its creditors - all apparently within 30 days.

For a third party to acquire the rights under the option then they would have to purchase CCFC Ltd from the liquidator and to complete a settlement (CVA?) with its creditors before making a bid for the shares the Charity own. That bid is not guaranteed to succeed, it can be rejected by the charity and as I understand it once the option is used then you cant go back and reuse it - ie the option dies.

Would either Otium or SBS&L be a third party? Well it depends where the shares in CCFC Ltd now reside and that is not clear. They could write off their loans in CCFC H and SBS&L in any settlement but that then leaves the ARVO and ACL plus HMRC. Write down the CCFC H & SBSL loans and ACL could be the biggest creditor and be in control of the process.

Add in the possibility of a Wasp veto of any share sale - speculation no facts released on that - but it could be

I would imagine there are feverish discussions between lawyers, advisors and liquidators going on right now as to how to get round all this. Also that they keep hitting brick walls

Can't help but think that this is keeping to the letter of the law, so that any sale can not be challenged and that ownership by anyone other than Wasps is a non starter.

Sorry to disappoint peoples hopes but I don't see CCFC owning 50%

But we will shall see. Clock ticking again.......

Excellent post Oldskyblue58. Certainly food for thought and it makes me think that Wasps have the whole thing sewn up. What the implications for CCFC are I can't begin to imagine but we will just have to hope that they have thought that one out too and that it is to our advantage.

 

[Hobo]

The above by olderskyblue58 puts my post on another thread into perspective. I wondered in theory if an arm of SISU or even another company could buy the not yet liquidated company and gain the right to buy. Could it be done in thirty days?

Olderskyblue58 post seems to illustrate it is highly unlikely.

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

Its a good question and the transfer of right to veto I believe has happened so in theory one must assume yes - I wonder who their preferred bidder is

Preston Haskell?

 

[Jack Griffin]

A
I would imagine there are feverish discussions between lawyers, advisors and liquidators going on right now as to how to get round all this. Also that they keep hitting brick walls
.

I expect the lights will be on at Ryton late into the night.

Snap..

 

[albatross]

I see it the same way as oldskyblue58. Think its a process thing to ensure all the i's are dotted and T's crossed.

Looking at how Wasps have conducted themselves (purchase,New local sponsor, PR etc) to this point they appear to be very organised and I would not expect that they would enter into any open ended agreement. There will be a due process with a defined outcome we are just going through the motions.

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

Looking at how Wasps have conducted themselves (purchase,New local sponsor, PR etc) to this point they appear to be very organised and I would not expect that they would enter into any open ended agreement.

If only SISU were more like them we would not be in this mess.

Just so pissed off and needed to say it.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just a question but if the option is legally recognised as belonging to CCFC Ltd (it seems to me that this is now confirmed) how was it ever possible to include it at a value of £1m in the accounts of SBS&L. How did the directors justify that? how did the auditors miss it was in the wrong company? why was it never corrected? what else is wrong or has been missed? .................:thinking about:

 

[Ian1779]

I see it the same way as oldskyblue58. Think its a process thing to ensure all the i's are dotted and T's crossed.

Looking at how Wasps have conducted themselves (purchase,New local sponsor, PR etc) to this point they appear to be very organised and I would not expect that they would enter into any open ended agreement. There will be a due process with a defined outcome we are just going through the motions.

I agree with you. Now all the fans need to be told clearly and explicitly what this means in terms of CCFC as it is now acquiring that stake.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Wasps have said that all contracts at ACL are binding and will be honoured

The custodians and decision makers at CCFC are Waggott, Fisher and above all Seppala........... up to them to evidence a clear way forward to reassure fans...... clever words are not necessary we want and need proof that OUR club is safe in their hands.... that they have a viable clear solution to our problems both short term and long term

 

[albatross]

OSB I also raised that as it would have a material effect on the value of CCFC LTD and what the administrator could raise in terms of funds to meet the creditors debts. It would be interesting as to what that current value of the option would be. And if exercised a £2.77m war the net present value of CCFC ltd may be

 

[Jack Griffin]

I see it the same way as oldskyblue58. Think its a process thing to ensure all the i's are dotted and T's crossed.

Looking at how Wasps have conducted themselves (purchase,New local sponsor, PR etc) to this point they appear to be very organised and I would not expect that they would enter into any open ended agreement. There will be a due process with a defined outcome we are just going through the motions.

Maybe Derek Richardson should take Joys place on the takeover panel?

 

[dongonzalos]

This is not what was said. The liquidator can buy the shares if in their judgement it would benefit the major creditors of the liquidated entity.

That's a very very different scenario I'm afraid.

Who is the major creditor

It is quite straight forward


SISU have a choice that many are outraged they never had.

This wasps deal is finally going to bring an end to this rubbish.

Do they buy 50% of ACL for 2.77 million or not. 30 days to decide I believe

 

[skybluepm2]

But Sisu have always said that they wanted the freehold of the Ricoh and the freehold isn't up for grabs is it. They would be doing a U turn if they make a bid.

Wouldn't be the first time...

'the Ricoh door is firmly shut. We have moved on'


'We are delighted to return to the Ricoh Arena'

 

[fernandopartridge]

This is not what was said. The liquidator can buy the shares if in their judgement it would benefit the major creditors of the liquidated entity.

That's a very very different scenario I'm afraid.

The major creditors of CCFC Ltd are SISU aren't they?

 

[bezzer]

Who is the major creditor

It is quite straight forward


SISU have a choice that many are outraged they never had.

This wasps deal is finally going to bring an end to this rubbish.

Do they buy 50% of ACL for 2.77 million or not. 30 days to decide I believe

I suggest you read the very informative post made by Oldskyblue58 a few pages back.

In case you'd not realised, it isn't as black and white as it first appeared.

 

[robbiethemole]

Originally Posted by oldskyblue58

I would imagine there are feverish discussions between lawyers, advisors and liquidators going on right now as to how to get round all this. Also that they keep hitting brick walls

excellent post osb58, the thing is, all the brick walls are dead ends all put in place by our illustrious owners as part of their plans to thwart anybody else buying into the ground. Now it has come back to feck them over :jerkit:

 

[Jack Griffin]

The major creditors of CCFC Ltd are SISU aren't they?

ARVO, forget SISU they sold to ARVO... look at OSB's figures above!

 

[covcity4life]

Originally Posted by oldskyblue58

I would imagine there are feverish discussions between lawyers, advisors and liquidators going on right now as to how to get round all this. Also that they keep hitting brick walls

excellent post osb58, the thing is, all the brick walls are dead ends all put in place by our illustrious owners as part of their plans to thwart anybody else buying into the ground. Now it has come back to feck them over :jerkit:

bet your well happy

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Have the CET put this question to the club yet?

 

[Samo]

Who is the major creditor

It is quite straight forward


SISU have a choice that many are outraged they never had.

This wasps deal is finally going to bring an end to this rubbish.

Do they buy 50% of ACL for 2.77 million or not. 30 days to decide I believe

What does it matter if Wasps have the right to veto anyway?

 

[Grendel]

What does it matter if Wasps have the right to veto anyway?

Its interesting to see that dongle now thinks OSB knows less than him as well.

 

[Grendel]

The major creditors of CCFC Ltd are SISU aren't they?

I would imagine ACL would claim the 44 years remaining on the lease is a debt owed

 

[robbiethemole]

bet your well happy

covcity4life............... you know fuck all about me but after 47 years a supporter that could be my nickname, so how dare you say I'm happy!! all I am saying is SISU had the chance to get everything Wasps have taken from us, and it's their own fault they haven't. so if you want to say things face to face you can find me in my ST seat in block 31 row m seat 1 for a friendly discussion on things:wave:

 

[oldskyblue58]

getting it down to brass tacks for a potential bidder ......

to get hold of the option .......

- the option can not be transferred from CCFC Ltd without the Charitys permission so cant be bought separately
- you have to buy CCFC Ltd - you may get it for £1 but the option it seems may have value so it might cost more, the liquidator legally must maximise the value - it costs money
- however to buy CCFC ltd you have to do a deal to settle out the CCFC Ltd creditors (creditors ACL who are owned by AEHC/Wasps could be in control of) or accept all the creditors as they stand which no one would do - it costs money
- you then have to provide the money to purchase the AEHC shares (one guess is £2.77m) - it costs money

At the end of which you can make an offer that could well be rejected. At that point the option dies. Wasps then obtain 100% and there is no stake to be had in ACL

So at the end of which you end up with a company you have paid good money for, settled out the creditors, that now owes you money but has absolutely no means of repaying you and no assets :thinking about:

it costs money ...........you lose money

 

[fernandopartridge]

I would imagine ACL would claim the 44 years remaining on the lease is a debt owed

I think that battle was lost in the administration process. I might be wrong.

 

[Sub]

OSB do you think this could a very clever way to force SISU to sell CCFC to the wasp owners or another bidder for the 50% of ACL that is forsale?

 

[Samo]

It is interesting that Anne Lucas was quite open on Sky TV about CCFC having an option to buy the Higgs share, why would she do that if it were not possible? Pointing it out as she did would piss off Wasps you would have thought, and surely she would want to avoid that. So why say it?
Because it is possible and she wants it happen?
Because it is possible and was part of the plan all along?
Because she doesn't understand that its not possible?
Because she knows its not possible and is giving SISU the finger?
Any other suggestions?

 

[oldskyblue58]

OSB do you think this could a very clever way to force SISU to sell CCFC to the wasp owners or another bidder for the 50% of ACL that is forsale?

You could read it that way although I am not sure I do. But it does close off SISU ambitions for the Ricoh. I think there is every intention Wasps will end up with 100%. I do not think they have any interest in running CCFC. If TF etc. are to be believed they have it all under control because they are building their own stadium so why should it bother them .........

 

[Rusty Trombone]

It is interesting that Anne Lucas was quite open on Sky TV about CCFC having an option to buy the Higgs share, why would she do that if it were not possible? Pointing it out as she did would piss off Wasps you would have thought, and surely she would want to avoid that. So why say it?
Because it is possible and she wants it happen?
Because it is possible and was part of the plan all along?
Because she doesn't understand that its not possible?
Because she knows its not possible and is giving SISU the finger?
Any other suggestions?

Because she knows its technically possible, but realistically impossible. And is definitely giving SISU the finger.

 

[albatross]

i think SISU only view coventry city football club a vehicle to own the Ricoh and the surrounding land for Development. They thought they were the only game in town and have been asleep on the job and WASPs have been business like and proposed a deal that meet the needs of the shareholders. I would expect the shareholders / Investors of SISU to be asking some very searching questions as to how they are going to get their money back.

The whole package for them was a Premier League football Team bringing in £50+ million in TV revenues Per year combined with a substantial and attractive property portfolio. That is now the preserve of WASPs RFC

If the debt that the football club is carrying is £5 0+ Million , no prospect of owning the Ricoh then I do not see how / why SISU are going to invest in a new stadium. This is a multiyear, multi million pound loss making venture. By this I Mean millions of Real pound notes have to be spent (not accrued consultancy fees and interest on your own debt) to build a stadium and football team requited to give any return in the investment made.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

SISU had the chance to get everything Wasps have taken from us, and it's their own fault they haven't.

100% correct. Wasps have demonstrated how to do business professionally. They saw an opportunity, presented a case to CCC who'd because they'd had a gutful of SISU's antics, loved the refreshing positivity and the deal was done in no time.

A lesson for SISU that in business you need to work WITH people. Solid business relationships are built on TRUST. SISU have alienated everyone they needed on their side and as a result they've got exactly what they deserve. NOTHING.