Higgs v SISU Court Document (10 Viewers)

[Astute]

They two figures of £5.5m and £2m are from two completely different situations.

And if the 5.5m and 2m offers were from two different situations why did they offer 1.5m cash and the rest over 10 years and then 2m cash when Higgs only wanted a cash payment?

 

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[lewys33]

I have only read quotes in this thread so far - surely we all knew that the council went behind SISU's back?! It was obvious back when it happened.

Anyone else think they only counter-claimed the higgs 29k so they could get hold of this information for the JR? Seems obvious now ........

Although I am still struggling to see how info like this will win it for them. Yes it shows the council went behind SISU's back, but does that mean it was state aid? I thought that was what the case was about?

Then again im not a shit hot lawyer ......... I am sure there are people out there that could blame a pile of shit for WW2.

 

[Godiva]

I found the emails very interesting, but would of liked to have seen them in their entirety. They do paint a different picture than I expected.

As I have said though why did SISU try to get the Higgs share for only 2m? Had they got a yes from YB that was for 8m? If so did they only have 10m for the whole deal? They offered the 5.5m but only 1.5m down. Was it down to a lack of obtainable funds at the time? So many things that could have been to try and make out why. This is why I am not laying the blame at their feet yet. Would just like to know why if they were so close to getting what they wanted they decided to fight over just 3.5m when we lose more than that in a season. Hope it wasn't just hardball tactics that cost them and our club so dearly.

They did NOT try to get the shares for £2m - in the sense it was not sisu going to Higgs offering £2m, it was Higgs coming to sisu and ask what they would pay in a deal outside the original plan.
There really is a difference!

And for it's worth - The plan was capsized by the reps from the council. They should be getting all the flak. Higgs can be blamed for following the council, but it wasn't their idea.

 

[Godiva]

And if the 5.5m and 2m offers were from two different situations why did they offer 1.5m cash and the rest over 10 years and then 2m cash when Higgs only wanted a cash payment?

I have no answer to why they wanted to pay over 10 years. You suggest it could be because of the cash available for the whole deal - it may be the reason, I don't know. But that is not what capsized the whole plan, so to me this is a minor detail that turns the attention away from the real problem: CCC deciding to buy out the mortgage and run from the agreement with sisu. That is what created this whole sorry mess and the actual reason why we are not playing at the Ricoh.

 

[lewys33]

I have no answer to why they wanted to pay over 10 years. You suggest it could be because of the cash available for the whole deal - it may be the reason, I don't know. But that is not what capsized the whole plan, so to me this is a minor detail that turns the attention away from the real problem: CCC deciding to buy out the mortgage and run from the agreement with sisu. That is what created this whole sorry mess and the actual reason why we are not playing at the Ricoh.

Chris West certainly has a lot to answer for, but CCC didn't force us out of the Ricoh. Two wrongs don't make a right. Everyone has f***ed up here.

 

[Grendel]

See you haven't read or understood the transcripts.

The deal at one stage was £1.5M up front and £4M in instalments (over a very long period), but there was never any agreement about how to secure the £4M (with an annuity or some such financial instrument), so it was never concluded. The charity did not wish to be vulnerable to the company paying the balance being liquidated and quite right too!

Subsequent discussion showed that the price was much lower (possibly £2M) if there was to be immediate payment in full.

It seems that all the fannying around killed the deal.

The very long time is 10 years. If that is very long how do you describe the restructured 40 year loan to ACL from the council.

There is no real evidence this was a killer on the deal. The killer was the council trying to keep sisu on board while going behind their back to grab the loan. That's the killer blow and that's why your pack of council cards are now starting to fall on your head.

 

[olderskyblue]

I only know what people have told me through correspondence and verbally and to be fair most of it has been pretty accurate. Let's be honest if the documents released had not shown any of the subterfuge I would be doing an MMM now and taking a break -- or a Sky Blue John and starting silly meaningless threads.

And yet you didn't post any of it? Even when you were getting so much stick for your views? The more likely answer is what was posted earlier. you really are an ACL plant...

 

[covcity4life]

It's a Sisu account of things.
Where is the Higgs account?

shown up for the council WUM you are.

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

Hilarious...

"SCL considered that the football sector was one to which
it could add value by instilling greater business discipline in the running of a football club. "

 

[Jack Griffin]

Hilarious...

"SCL considered that the football sector was one to which
it could add value by instilling greater business discipline in the running of a football club. "

By appointing Ken "give them all 4 year deals" Delieu and Ray "I know a great manager" Ranson

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

More comedy value from sisu...

"This followed the appointment of a new Board of Directors of the Club, one of whom was Tim Fisher, whose remit included developing relations with the Council. "

 

[Godiva]

Hilarious...

"SCL considered that the football sector was one to which
it could add value by instilling greater business discipline in the running of a football club. "

By appointing Ken "give them all 4 year deals" Delieu and Ray "I know a great manager" Ranson

I think you will find that sisu accepted a greater business discipline was necessary BECAUSE of Ranson and Dulieu.

 

[Grendel]

Hilarious...

"SCL considered that the football sector was one to which
it could add value by instilling greater business discipline in the running of a football club. "

By appointing Ken "give them all 4 year deals" Delieu and Ray "I know a great manager" Ranson

I think you will find that sisu accepted a greater business discipline was necessary BECAUSE of Ranson and Dulieu.

I think AFC and Jacks strategy can be summed up as the Plan D approach;

Lets panic, find something totally irrelevant and post it as everything that is relevant is proving very counter productive to our stance.

 

[lewys33]

I think AFC and Jacks strategy can be summed up as the Plan D approach;

Lets panic, find something totally irrelevant and post it as everything that is relevant is proving very counter productive to our stance.

Yes SISU were marvels in the running of our club. Can you not admit that both sides have obviously fucked up?

 

[Warwickhunt]

Just finished reading the whole thing. Thought it was what the judge had said. Was about to join in with the ACL bashers and wondered what Higgs had been up to. Then got to the end and saw who had put it together :facepalm:

Points of interest? Many. But no idea what the truth is. If the judge believed half of it he would have awarded them 290k.

If they had not been so greedy and wanted 10 fold what Higgs wanted he would have probably found in favour. However the Judge worked on the principle why the counter claim was so big and decided that SISU were trying to frighten Higgs off thus he threw SISU counter claim out first before he deliberated on the real reason the review was being done.

 

[Jack Griffin]

I think you will find that sisu accepted a greater business discipline was necessary BECAUSE of Ranson and Dulieu.

Just so we are clear, they were SISU appointees, their mess is SISU's responsibility, just like Fishers mess is.

 

[hill83]

Yes SISU were marvels in the running of our club. Can you not admit that both sides have obviously fucked up?

I've been saying that for months and months and used to be called all sorts for it. Welcome to the club.

 

[lewys33]

I've been saying that for months and months and used to be called all sorts for it. Welcome to the club.

To be fair I can never tell when you are being serious or not

 

[Nick]

I've been saying that for months and months and used to be called all sorts for it. Welcome to the club.

A fair few people have been saying all sides have their part to play, they were usually asked to calculate an algorithm to work out exactly what % each were to blame though and ignored.

 

[Rob S]

I think you will find that sisu accepted a greater business discipline was necessary BECAUSE of Ranson and Dulieu.

Bringing in Steve Waggott and the changes in development & management that we've seen since, seems to indicate so.

Get the current set-up playing back at the Ricoh in front of a passionate crowd and we can see what they can achieve. We can then make a judgment on how good this post-Ranson/Onye/Dulieu regime actually is without all of the background noise of the past couple of years of backroom shenanigans.

 

[hill83]

A fair few people have been saying all sides have their part to play, they were usually asked to calculate an algorithm to work out exactly what % each were to blame though and ignored.

Not forgetting this was also discussed at length without any real evidence. But we'll leave that for now.

 

[lordsummerisle]

If anything different than 90% Sisu and 10% ACL/CCC then you would be burned as a heretic.

 

[lewys33]

A fair few people have been saying all sides have their part to play, they were usually asked to calculate an algorithm to work out exactly what % each were to blame though and ignored.

I think that some people take what is said too literally. Times I have said "anti-sisu" stuff and I get 1 lot of people saying I am wrong. Next I say something "anti-council" and I get the other lot saying I am wrong! Can't win on here!

Unless you are Brian. I think he lives in Cotton Candy Land he is so happy.

 

[lewys33]

If anything different than 90% Sisu and 10% ACL/CCC then you would be burned as a heretic.

why not 92% sisu?!?! #cretin

 

[kevinleftpeg]

shown up for the council WUM you are.

You still do not get it do you.

SISU / Them- Came here to make a shed load of money with zero interest in CCFC / fans / the fabric of the community etc.
This is their Business & they will do anything to get everything they want for as little as possible. THE GROUND & the area it sits on. When their plan did not go to plan they embroiled the Council / Higgs & us into their messy world.

Council & Higgs have screwed up but because SISU are scumbags.

As for those short sighted few that venture into Socksfield? They make Mr Magoo look like a Topgun pilot if they cannot see what SISU are about

Forget all the poncy postering about a Charity chasing it's costs. LOOK AT WHAT SISU DO PLEASE. Rip people off for their own ends.

Pretend you do not have any conscious whatsoever, just for 1 minute & think 'SISU'. THEY ONLY EXIST TO MAKE MONEY FOR THEIR CLIENTS & THEMSELVES.

 

[wingy]

I still can't believe this all fell apart over £3.5m. to Higgs ,it's just Ludicrous that both other parties have been willing to further expose themselves to at least an Extra £10-£11M. up to now .

SIsu ,becuase they'd have what they say they wanted for around £120K pa over 100 yr lease .

CCC apparently invited by SISU to share the burden in the YB buyout @ £3.5M. each ,Either freeing up the same for SISU to give Higgs ,or CCC declining that and Instead giving the same amount to HIGGS.

Deal Done on that basis.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Still think they are trying to prove a conspiracy Fernando?

No, they're trying to prove that the council provided illegal state aid

 

[DaleM]

Why's everyone creaming themselves over a "0-0 draw" ?

Looks like , yes , the council and Higgs may have done the wrong thing but we've only seen the leaked SISU papers up to now.

We're still a mid table division 3 side with no hope of any success with SISU in charge .

 

[Hobo]

No, they're trying to prove that the council provided illegal state aid

State aid is not illegal. But, it can be in certain circumstances. I think it is important people understand that. The legislation apparently is broad and detailed, so expect a complicated JR.

State aid is given in many forms on a daily basis including lottery funding.

 

[lordsummerisle]

State aid is not illegal.

But, it can be in certain circumstances.

Cleared it up nicely for us!

 

[wingy]

Yeah ,unlawful never illegal.

 

[fernandopartridge]

State aid is not illegal. But, it can be in certain circumstances. I think it is important people understand that. The legislation apparently is broad and detailed, so expect a complicated JR.

State aid is given in many forms on a daily basis including lottery funding.

I know there are exemptions, even where there are exemptions there is a de minimus level.

In any case, the excerpts from council emails suggest that ACL was never in the financial difficulty due to the rent strike that was made out, the argument for 'protecting the investment' could be blown out of the water. The admittance that SISU had agreed to pay over the market rate for Higgs' share is important too.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yeah ,unlawful never illegal.

Fair point - I said unlawful yesterday and meant unlawful today.

 

[Hobo]

Yeah ,unlawful never illegal.

The government state aid guides prefer "illegal"

 

[Hobo]

I know there are exemptions, even where there are exemptions there is a de minimus level.

In any case, the excerpts from council emails suggest that ACL was never in the financial difficulty due to the rent strike that was made out, the argument for 'protecting the investment' could be blown out of the water. The admittance that SISU had agreed to pay over the market rate for Higgs' share is important too.

I am not saying there is not a case, I just didn't want people thinking state aid was illegal full stop. It is clear from reading posts on here people do get confused on legal matters and are easily knocked off track. They build a big case out of a small piece of misinterpreted information; that then confuses it for others who come in half way through a thread.