Hillary / US Election Thread (6 Viewers)

[ccfc92]

You're assuming 50% is the figure. No one knows the real figure, but judging on Trump's successful tactics, there are obviously enough that meet your criteria to swing a vote.

I meant just in a standard vote, to keep it simple. 51% -49% wins etc.

 

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[martcov]

There is always difficulties with tests, as mentioned before who administer and grade the test would have a lot of power and if you centralise that much power there is potential for abuse.

I think something where people are forced to read party manifestos and understand what the party they are voting for intents to do in government would be interesting though.

The voters are too lazy to check all the facts. Trump's and Farage's campaigns were aggressive sales campaigns based on populism. All one could do is regulate these campaigns similarly to product sales. Prosecute for misleading statements and enforce some sort of minimum standards of decency.

If we do nothing our democracy will be worthless as it is being abused. People need to make an informed and reasoned decision otherwise it isn't democracy- it is merely a sales event. We elect the person who is best at sales, not the one with the best policy.

 

[ccfc92]

To put it another way then, how would you feel SkyBlueBear, or anyone else in favour of a test to vote idea, if you yourself failed the test, and was denied being able to vote. Even though you consider your political views correct and wanted to vote for someone you believed in?

 

[dancers lance]

But the farmer could be unable to read and write, yet is a highly skilled man practically, but fails the test. Does that seem fair.

The problem with this "test" idea, is it's assuming over 50% of voters are "stupid, ill informed and gullible", which I don't believe is true IMO.

To be forced to take a test before you are "allowed" to vote is the absolute antithesis of democracy, and would, especially in America, be the most heinous attack on the constitution that the country is built on.

 

[martcov]

I meant just in a standard vote, to keep it simple. 51% -49% wins etc.

Yes, but of the 51%, how many are stupid etc.? Some may have made reasoned choices. They may be wrong choices, but not based on believing unscrupulous politicians. You only need a small percentage of people voting out of stupidity to swing a vote e.g. some brexiters were of the opinion they would be getting rid of muslims by voting leave. Such people may have swung it, but the others voted for valid reasons..

 

[ccfc92]

Yes, but of the 51%, how many are stupid etc.? Some may have made reasoned choices. They may be wrong choices, but not based on believing unscrupulous politicians. You only need a small percentage of people voting out of stupidity to swing a vote e.g. some brexiters were of the opinion they would be getting rid of muslims by voting leave. Such people may have swung it, but the others voted for valid reasons..

Well no one can answer that can they? If it went the other way would the "stupid" tag be put on the Remain voters? I doubt it.

All leave voters were made out to be right wing, knuckle dragging racists.

 

[dancers lance]

The voters are too lazy to check all the facts. Trump's and Farage's campaigns were aggressive sales campaigns based on populism. All one could do is regulate these campaigns similarly to product sales. Prosecute for misleading statements and enforce some sort of minimum standards of decency.

If we do nothing our democracy will be worthless as it is being abused. People need to make an informed and reasoned decision otherwise it isn't democracy- it is merely a sales event. We elect the person who is best at sales, not the one with the best policy.

The thing is, in a free society, in a democracy, you are allowed to say and do what you want (within reason) if people fall for it and vote accordingly, then so what? lets stop acting like this is the first time a person challenging for leadership has ever spun a yarn, because it isn't.

 

[Captain Dart]

To put it another way then, how would you feel SkyBlueBear, or anyone else in favour of a test to vote idea, if you yourself failed the test, and was denied being able to vote. Even though you consider your political views correct and wanted to vote for someone you believed in?

Anyone in favour of a test should fail the test.

 

[dancers lance]

Yes, but of the 51%, how many are stupid etc.? Some may have made reasoned choices. They may be wrong choices, but not based on believing unscrupulous politicians. You only need a small percentage of people voting out of stupidity to swing a vote e.g. some brexiters were of the opinion they would be getting rid of muslims by voting leave. Such people may have swung it, but the others voted for valid reasons..

And how many of the 49% are stupid and made an ill informed choice? or are people only stupid when they don't vote for what you want?

 

[martcov]

The thing is, in a free society, in a democracy, you are allowed to say and do what you want (within reason) if people fall for it and vote accordingly, then so what? lets stop acting like this is the first time a person challenging for leadership has ever spun a yarn, because it isn't.

This is more than a yarn though. This is dirt, lying, threatening, advocating violence against hecklers, insulting and even offering imprisoning the opponent if he wins the election. I am 61 and have never seen such dirt in an election campaign. you say this should be allowed, but I don't see any democracy when the uninformed mob is being blatantly misled.

The picture of two millionaires laughing in a golden lift after ' job done ' shows the sheer cynicism of these people. The 'forgotten ' voters think they won, but look at that bizarre picture. The 'men of the people ' must be laughing at the dumb voters. It is bizarre.

Sorry, but this is blatant fraud. As you say they fell for it and there is nothing we can do.

 

[martcov]

And how many of the 49% are stupid and made an ill informed choice? or are people only stupid when they don't vote for what you want?

Argument is the same. Point is that people in a democracy hold the power and decide who gets to use it. To work properly, the people giving the power to their representatives have to be reliabily informed to reach a correct decision- in their view.

If they are not reliabily informed, they are being cheated of the chance to reach their own decision.

Even if they are stupid, they have the right to make an informed decision. With so much bs around many people just followed the simple slogans and were never really informed.

Well no one can answer that can they? If it went the other way would the "stupid" tag be put on the Remain voters? I doubt it.

All leave voters were made out to be right wing, knuckle dragging racists.

i was quoting an example and said maybe. Theoretically. I also used the term ' small percentage '. It could be used for remain just as easily - as you say. Point is most people could make a reasoned decision either way, but a small percentage could change the vote based on sheer bs which takes away from the democracy.

 

[ccfc92]

Argument is the same. Point is that people in a democracy hold the power and decide who gets to use it. To work properly, the people giving the power to their representatives have to be reliabily informed to reach a correct decision- in their view.

If they are not reliabily informed, they are being cheated of the chance to reach their own decision.

Even if they are stupid, they have the right to make an informed decision. With so much bs around many people just followed the simple slogans and were never really informed.


i was quoting an example and said maybe. Theoretically. I also used the term ' small percentage '. It could be used for remain just as easily - as you say. Point is most people could make a reasoned decision either way, but a small percentage could change the vote based on sheer bs which takes away from the democracy.

Wouldn't you agree though Mart, that the bs was coming from both sides? Both in Brexit and the US election.

 

[Liquid Gold]

An election standards agency should definitely be introduced to stop bullshit from every side. One of the biggest threats to democracy is demagogues lying to people in order to be elected. I can't see how anybody could oppose fact checking and repercussions for lying politicians.

 

[dancers lance]

Anyone in favour of a test should fail the test.

And be

This is more than a yarn though. This is dirt, lying, threatening, advocating violence against hecklers, insulting and even offering imprisoning the opponent if he wins the election. I am 61 and have never seen such dirt in an election campaign. you say this should be allowed, but I don't see any democracy when the uninformed mob is being blatantly misled.

The picture of two millionaires laughing in a golden lift after ' job done ' shows the sheer cynicism of these people. The 'forgotten ' voters think they won, but look at that bizarre picture. The 'men of the people ' must be laughing at the dumb voters. It is bizarre.

Sorry, but this is blatant fraud. As you say they fell for it and there is nothing we can do.

Argument is the same. Point is that people in a democracy hold the power and decide who gets to use it. To work properly, the people giving the power to their representatives have to be reliabily informed to reach a correct decision- in their view.

If they are not reliabily informed, they are being cheated of the chance to reach their own decision.

Even if they are stupid, they have the right to make an informed decision. With so much bs around many people just followed the simple slogans and were never really informed.


i was quoting an example and said maybe. Theoretically. I also used the term ' small percentage '. It could be used for remain just as easily - as you say. Point is most people could make a reasoned decision either way, but a small percentage could change the vote based on sheer bs which takes away from the democracy.

But so what? the thing is, in a democracy you are allowed to vote for whom ever you want, for whatever reason and without fear of ridicule or oppression, if someone voted for Trump for the sole reason the loved his hair, and someone else voted for Clinton because they loved her pant suits, and have no understanding of the politics, that vote is just as valid and they should never have that right taken away from them.

 

[martcov]

Wouldn't you agree though Mart, that the bs was coming from both sides? Both in Brexit and the US election.

Yes, I would, but I wouldn't say equally. Trump took personal and dirt to new limits. Farage has been bullshitting for years. The point being, that the electorate hold the power, and they decide who represents them. They deserve the right to be reliably informed, whoever they vote for. Do you believe that Trump and Farage represent the poor and the forgotten voters? I don't, I think they saw a market and exploited it. They are both going to do very well out of it. Millionaires.

 

[martcov]

And be


But so what? the thing is, in a democracy you are allowed to vote for whom ever you want, for whatever reason and without fear of ridicule or oppression, if someone voted for Trump for the sole reason the loved his hair, and someone else voted for Clinton because they loved her pant suits, and have no understanding of the politics, that vote is just as valid and they should never have that right taken away from them.

True. But they should have the right to make an informed decision- a yarn yes, but the depths of dirt and lies in the USA and to a certain extent here, take away these rights.

Some will still like Trump's hair, but they should have some right to genuine information to make their decision should they wish to choose the candidate on merit.

 

[dancers lance]

True. But they should have the right to make an informed decision- a yarn yes, but the depths of dirt and lies in the USA and to a certain extent here, take away these rights.

Some will still like Trump's hair, but they should have some right to genuine information to make their decision should they wish to choose the candidate on merit.

Perhaps they genuinely like his hair! You can't tell people they don't have the right to make a decision because you consider them intellectually deficient for not having the same ideology as you.

 

[Ashdown]

Well I've got to be honest Mart, from reading some of your story, I had you down as nearer 41 !

 

[martcov]

Perhaps they genuinely like his hair! You can't tell people they don't have the right to make a decision because you consider them intellectually deficient for not having the same ideology as you.

I actually said that they should have a right to some genuine information to come to their decision ( a bit different to your interpretation). They can still vote for his hair, but to lie to them and frighten them is not the way to achieve a real democracy. There should be some accountancy for people like Trump. Nothing to do with my ideology . Trump is a good example of how to unscrupulously manipulate the electorate.

 

[dancers lance]

I actually said that they should have a right to some genuine information to come to their decision ( a bit different to your interpretation). They can still vote for his hair, but to lie to them and frighten them is not the way to achieve a real democracy. There should be some accountancy for people like Trump. Nothing to do with my ideology . Trump is a good example of how to unscrupulously manipulate the electorate.

The fact that Trump was even able to run for president let alone win, just shows how much the whole system has lost touch with the people whom it is supposed to govern, but this is not the fault of the people, blaming people for mistakes made by a select elite is to play directly into their hands.

 

[martcov]

The fact that Trump was even able to run for president let alone win, just shows how much the whole system has lost touch with the people whom it is supposed to govern, but this is not the fault of the people, blaming people for mistakes made by a select elite is to play directly into their hands.

I am blaming Trump, although blame is not the right word. He saw a market opportunity and he took it. The responsible politicians hold the ball flat when you talk about race, sexual preferences, abortions etc.. Trump knows that and sees his opening. He is not responsible, he would do anything and say anything to market himself, which gives him a huge advantage. All rules out of the window. Worse way he screws up and drops back out of politics. He's got plenty of other interests. I could also blame the system for not setting limits about lies, rabble rousing or personal attacks. If you were advertising a product you would be governed by stricter rules than choosing/ marketing a president.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

And how many of the 49% are stupid and made an ill informed choice? or are people only stupid when they don't vote for what you want?

There are plenty of stupid people on both sides, I'm sure of that

 

[dancers lance]

There are plenty of stupid people on both sides, I'm sure of that

Exactly.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

So why don't we let children vote?

Yet we let all adults vote, some who would struggle to answer a simple question designed for a 10 year old.

 

[rob9872]

Oh how naive. Politician fails to tell the truth scandal. Whatever next?

 

[clint van damme]

This is more than a yarn though. This is dirt, lying, threatening, advocating violence against hecklers, insulting and even offering imprisoning the opponent if he wins the election. I am 61 and have never seen such dirt in an election campaign. you say this should be allowed, but I don't see any democracy when the uninformed mob is being blatantly misled.

The picture of two millionaires laughing in a golden lift after ' job done ' shows the sheer cynicism of these people. The 'forgotten ' voters think they won, but look at that bizarre picture. The 'men of the people ' must be laughing at the dumb voters. It is bizarre.

Sorry, but this is blatant fraud. As you say they fell for it and there is nothing we can do.

can't believe people are still falling for the anti establishment line regarding Trump.
See he's started announcing his cabinet - very anti establishment!

 

[Grendel]

Yes, but of the 51%, how many are stupid etc.? Some may have made reasoned choices. They may be wrong choices, but not based on believing unscrupulous politicians. You only need a small percentage of people voting out of stupidity to swing a vote e.g. some brexiters were of the opinion they would be getting rid of muslims by voting leave. Such people may have swung it, but the others voted for valid reasons..

On five live someone said they voted for remain as they thought England couldn't play in the euros anymore.

Amazing how in your mind none of the 49% were stupid.

 

[martcov]

On five live someone said they voted for remain as they thought England couldn't play in the euros anymore.

Amazing how in your mind none of the 49% were stupid.

I gave an example of how a small minority can swing an election because they have been misled or have misunderstood. You have given another.

I think there should be some recourse or punishment for the lies of the digusting campaigns that we have had recently.

 

[martcov]

can't believe people are still falling for the anti establishment line regarding Trump.
See he's started announcing his cabinet - very anti establishment!

"What we are witnessing is the end of a period of big business and big politics controlling our lives"

This was posted on 09 November by one of the two men in a golden lift at the palatial home of one of the world's biggest businessmen. The businessman wants to round up and deport 3 million Mexicans.

Seems to me we are entering a world where big business makes big politics. This is the start of a roller coaster ride - hold tight and close your eyes...

The quote was by Farage and is on the UKIP website.

 

[clint van damme]

"What we are witnessing is the end of a period of big business and big politics controlling our lives"

This was posted on 09 November by one of the two men in a golden lift at the palatial home of one of the world's biggest businessmen. The businessman wants to round up and deport 3 million Mexicans.

Seems to me we are entering a world where big business makes big politics. This is the start of a roller coaster ride - hold tight and close your eyes...

The quote was by Farage and is on the UKIP website.

As predicted, he's appointed an ex Goldman Sachs executive, very anti establishment!!

Wonder what farage will make of that? He said this just the other day:

In an interview with TalkRadio from Spain before he left for the US, Farage said he was “the catalyst” for the downfall of “the Blairites, the Clintonites, the Bushites and all these dreadful people who work hand in glove with Goldman Sachs and everybody else, have made themselves rich and ruined our countries”.

 

[martcov]

As predicted, he's appointed an ex Goldman Sachs executive, very anti establishment!!

Wonder what farage will make of that? He said this just the other day:

In an interview with TalkRadio from Spain before he left for the US, Farage said he was “the catalyst” for the downfall of “the Blairites, the Clintonites, the Bushites and all these dreadful people who work hand in glove with Goldman Sachs and everybody else, have made themselves rich and ruined our countries”.

These are "dreadful people" - bad white guys, whereas Obama is, according to Farage, a "loathsome creature" - bad black guy. The choice of "creature" as opposed to "people" seems to be a relapse to his 70s youth in the days of the National Front's popularity, when he, apparently, according to his peers, expressed support for the NF.

 

[Kingokings204]

If farage wants to act as a go between may and trump then I'm fine with that. Whether you like the man or not is actually irrelevant he has proved himself against all the others over 25 years and he has got the biggest result ever in British polictics that without Nigel we wouldn't of even had the chance to vote for. Bar never being an MP he has had unreal success with ukip and personally. And IF having him for a better trade deal and relations with the biggest power in the world then don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Now I know some hate the bloke and yes he is an arse but if you can't see how good he is at what he does and how successful he has been against all sorts of antics then I find that a bit foolish.

 

[Ashdown]

If he doesn't get a job this side of the pond then the Trump crowd may give him a role as a special advisor on the UK ?! If that cretin Blair can get a Middle East peace mediating job then I guess anything is possible !?

 

[oakey]

Farage is a smug, self absorbed buffoon.
He is a wrecker with no real interest in this country or any other. He is the perfect partner to arselick Trump.
He will not be allowed to embarrass U.K. by being anywhere near a role in this, formal or informal.
He is a Quisling.

 

[chiefdave]

Farage is a smug, self absorbed buffoon.

And seemed to be lacking a poppy. While I don't believe everyone should be forced to wear one I would have expected him to be wearing one.