Hillsborough; The Truth At Last (1 Viewer)

As for the Hillsborough thing, I can't believe The Sun today. Front page,
'The Real Truth.' Lots of sub headlines, but nowhere on the front page does it
say 'Sorry.'

The front page headline should have been 'Sorry' and nothing
else.

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:claping hands::claping hands:

No self-respecting football fan should ever buy The Scum again. Vile rag.

It does say they are sorry on the front page, in one of the sub headlines. Too little too late though. I never buy the Sun anyway. People buy it for the football, and a certain other page, but the football reporting is terrible and full of made up stories.

The two papers I dislike most of all are The Sun and The Daily Liar ..... oops, sorry, meant The Daily Mail.

Used to buy The Sun for the tits.

Now I just watch the City instead.

I don't buy daily papers full stop. Why bother. All the news I want is on the TV or internet. Save the trees, that's what I say!!

I think the underlying insinuation with opinions like Rob's is that it only happened because it was Liverpool fans. This is what I believed the Police & Establishment played on, bolstered by ammo in the form of the Heysel disaster. This, of course, is complete nonsense. As well as the reports findings are these opinions also suggesting that only Liverpool fans travel to games without tickets? Rubbish! Could of happened to Man Utd, West Ham Utd or even Torquay Utd had they the fan base. Furthermore, cast your mind back to the last Home game of the season for Cov in 1987 v Saints. Jubilant Pitch invasion at the end to celebrate a glorious season and the Coppers send the Horses on. Further comment would be superfluous.....

I guess if it's been proved beyond doubt that no ticketless Liverpool fans attempted to gain access to a completely unsuitable ground looked after by a completely incompetent police force then no fans can be held responsible at all. If a minority of ticketless fans tried to gain access then they have to be a factor. That's just logic.

I was a little concerned about the make up of the "independent" enquiry

All the ones I saw were without make-up I'm sure.

Otis said:

All the ones I saw were without make-up I'm sure.

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Do you ever have a day off Otis

Is it time to re-introduce safe standing areas?

LastGarrison said:

Is it time to re-introduce safe standing areas?

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Yes I think so, now there are no fences

Macca said:

I guess if it's been proved beyond doubt that no ticketless Liverpool fans attempted to gain access to a completely unsuitable ground looked after by a completely incompetent police force then no fans can be held responsible at all. If a minority of ticketless fans tried to gain access then they have to be a factor. That's just logic.

I was a little concerned about the make up of the "independent" enquiry

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Macca, I understand this is another area where the police failed in 1989. Yes there may have been ticketless fans entering the stadium but in the report it states that in the 1987 and 1988 semi-finals there were systems in place, organised by SYP at the Leppings Lane turnstiles to form ques leading up to the entrances. It's here where fans were checked for tickets, if they did not have one there were turned away, common practice at most grounds and events. The ques would also alleviate the pressure and bottlenecks at the entrances.

In 1989 this procedure was ignored.

Rob, I strongly recommend you read the full report, it just might clear a few things up (its changed a few opinions I originally had). Yes there is the potential to blame certain fans but it's how crowd control is managed that is the real failing here.

Joy Division said:

Macca, I understand this is another area where the police failed in 1989. Yes there may have been ticketless fans entering the stadium but in the report it states that in the 1987 and 1988 semi-finals there were systems in place, organised by SYP at the Leppings Lane turnstiles to form ques leading up to the entrances. It's here where fans were checked for tickets, if they did not have one there were turned away, common practice at most grounds and events. The ques would also alleviate the pressure and bottlenecks at the entrances.

In 1989 this procedure was ignored.

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which is kind of where I am coming from. Massively the fault of authorities but ANYONE who entered without a ticket is not guilt free, logically

Joy Division said:

Rob, I strongly recommend you read the full report, it just might clear a few things up (its changed a few opinions I originally had). Yes there is the potential to blame certain fans but it's how crowd control is managed that is the real failing here.

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I strongly recommend that you read my full post and not just the controversial part. I have been consistent in blaming the police as I have been for long before this report.

My comment was that it wasn't imo the only factor and one report will not change my mind on that. Heysel, even Istanbul just a few years back. I'm not saying we're perfect, in fact some of us far from it, just in smaller numbers, but to say that it was total disorder because of the police and only the police is I believe just as wrong as the original findings.

I've been to football, you've been to football, it was the 80's and a recipe that was all too often set up to go wrong and only needed the stupidity of something like the decision to open that gate for the consequences that followed. But, exuberance, anger, some of which will have been fuelled by alcohol as it was every week at HR inside and outside the West End as kick off approached, adding the ingredient of opportunist and ticketless fans, not many, certainly not all, but some and they must in some small way, however it is dressed up, be partially responsible.

Of course in light of the recent report and without the availability of hard evidence to prove it, there is no way on gods earth that they would have been permitted to speculate on anything untowards by the fans. And again, when I say fans, I am in no way describing the actions of any of the 96 who died (CRB checks and an attempt to discredit them was outrageous) but other fans who will have known and must live with the fact that they and others were involuntary a factor. I'm sure if everyone of those who had a drink or turned up without a ticket, knew the consequences they would go back and change it, but to suddenly say it never happened is baffling.

Macca said:

which is kind of where I am coming from. Massively the fault of authorities but ANYONE who entered without a ticket is not guilt free, logically

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But if for example you take away the fans who entered without tickets, there still would have been the same problems in the central pens. A rush of people desperate to see the game entering on mass through the opened gate, but there were no police or stewarding to filter fans to the side sections of the terrace. The estimated crowd only exceeded the capacity of the central pens and not the whole terrace.

Of course you are correct that it is wrong to enter without a ticket. Guilty yes but not necessarily for the incident that happened.

rob9872 said:

I strongly recommend that you read my full post and not just the controversial part. I have been consistent in blaming the police as I have been for long before this report.

My comment was that it wasn't imo the only factor and one report will not change my mind on that. Heysel, even Istanbul just a few years back. I'm not saying we're perfect, in fact some of us far from it, just in smaller numbers, but to say that it was total disorder because of the police and only the police is I believe just as wrong as the original findings.

I've been to football, you've been to football, it was the 80's and a recipe that was all too often set up to go wrong and only needed the stupidity of something like the decision to open that gate for the consequences that followed. But, exuberance, anger, some of which will have been fuelled by alcohol as it was every week at HR inside and outside the West End as kick off approached, adding the ingredient of opportunist and ticketless fans, not many, certainly not all, but some and they must in some small way, however it is dressed up, be partially responsible.

Of course in light of the recent report and without the availability of hard evidence to prove it, there is no way on gods earth that they would have been permitted to speculate on anything untowards by the fans. And again, when I say fans, I am in no way describing the actions of any of the 96 who died (CRB checks and an attempt to discredit them was outrageous) but other fans who will have known and must live with the fact that they and others were involuntary a factor. I'm sure if everyone of those who had a drink or turned up without a ticket, knew the consequences they would go back and change it, but to suddenly say it never happened is baffling.

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Yes I did read your post Rob.

Its entirely up to you how you want to view the incident and I'm aware that you acknowledged the huge failings from the Police. I'm not going to try and change your mind about anything, just suggesting that the report here clears a few presumtions up (ones I had myself included).

You are right in that there are more factors that caused the incident than just the police and more than simply opening a gate.

Don't think the truth is ever really been Hidden. It took a number of reasons for this tragic event to happen - fans AND police including.

I was there in '87 and had the fright of my life! I was hurled forward and backwards off my feet up and down the terraces, I never got back to my original starting place! At over 6 feet and 13 stone no easy feet!
Yes Police acted like amateurs and fairly clueless on the day and support was also very poor by emergency services, in part caused by lack of coordination, not expecting mass death before their very eyes at a football match so noone tested to see if an ambulance could gain easy access to the pitchside for example?
Compounding the problem were the numbers let into the ground. No health and safety issues back then of course but there are still crowd limits which seemed to be ignored both in '87 and again on that fateful day?
Fencing in the crowds was always a dumb idea and helped cause the mayhem....so glad that eventually ended and of course with all seater stadiums this is most likely never a scenario to be repeated. (think again those who ask on here for terrace returns) People simply could not get pitchside quick enough and as video shows clearly the stewards and police ushered them back initially blissfully unaware of the carnage they were trying to escape from.

All in all many were to blame including fans but overall most blame should be pointed at the authorites for all that I mentioned above.
A tragic day. Should a policeman be prosecuted for following what was then beleived to be the right decision at the time? No. Should the police for falsifying documents be prosecuted? Yes. Could they have saved 41 lives? Yes and I dare say they could have saved all had they been more vigilent and known what was taking place as it happened but that's all conjecture.
There is collective blame, not sure about individual blame and these facts must be assessed baring in mind the time period they happend in and not on todays assumptions of how events should or should not evolve.
We live in a society now (since Diana's death) that want their 10 peny worth of blood and this will not rest until compensation goes to the victims families sadly. Not making light of this tragedgy but how times have changed...

looks like they might actually try to get proper justice for those that died ....... two investigations IPCC and DPP looking at report with view to charges

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19922092