How big a club are we? (3 Viewers)

[Nonleagueherewecome]

They won six in that time frame plus six facs plus numerous runners up spots in both comps. Like i said, clearly number one for the first 30-40 years.

So although they won 5 titles in the first 12 years of the FL, but none for the subsequent 28, they were still the clearly the number one club? After 28 years without a title? That's crazy talk.

 

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[oldskyblue58]

"how big a club are we?" well on the basis of that meaning right now not very. You can use attendance figures but ask any number cruncher - you can make figures say anything you like if you choose the right ones. To me you have to look at the whole package and at the current state of things

we were a team that mixed it with the big boys for 34 years, but that was a decade+ ago. We achieved one moment of true glory. But that is all history. We were a team that got reasonable attendances (not great) with the average distorted by a couple of seasons figures. We were then a team in the Championship but never achieved a damn thing other than relegation.

That is history and the question is set in the present not the past

We are now an under achieving, lowly third division team, in the financial mire. Yes we get better than average attendances in that division but look at what we are up against. Our current claims to size seem to revolve around three things, the size of our home gate, the size and cost of our squad, and the ground we play in but do not own. None of which is bringing us any great success right now. In the scheme of things we are not a big club, to many other fans we are largely irrelevant, a club that had something a while back but are strugglers now. In a division where we have some considerable advantages we have been to date shockingly poor for the most part with inconsistent glimpses on good things. We might see ourselves as a big club in the 3rd division, even be seen as such by other teams in League 1 (although we have done a lot to dispell that fear of a bigger team so far)........ but in the greater scheme of things we are just another club, there are few truly big clubs at the moment and they are all in the premiership.

Could we be a bigger club ...... the potential is there, the set up is there but who knows.

Bottom line though is does it actually really matter if we are regarded as big or small in the grand scheme of things ? Do we actually raise the level of expectation (in terms of promotion) too high by insisting we are a big club before we actually establish an expectation of actually being a winning side that has a team that plays well and is hard to beat. "Big" teams do not expect to fail .......... we have expected to fail for far too long

Are we a big club right now - no

.............. as in much of life size doesnt matter its what you do with it that matters

 

[Hamish]

Evans is right, a lot of fans under estimate how potentially big we could be. Don't the 34 years in the top division mean anything. The 80s in football were pretty bad in terms of attendances. Every club suffered. Two reasons, unemployment and thugs ruining our game. Fences up everywhere.
I know I'm off the topic a bit here but every thug who has ever caused trouble in and around a football ground shares some of the blame for those 96 deaths at Hillborough. Because of the thugs fences were put up. If the fences hadn't been there those people would still be alive.

The thugs that caused Hillsborough are called South Yorkshire police.

 

[skyblueman]

We're MASSIVE.....

 

[oldskyblue58]

Although i can see the point that without the fences things may been better, and that fences were erected because of football crowd disturbances I really cannot attribute the blame for 96 deaths to a set of fences and in general a few idiots that throw their handbags at each other.

Clearly the blame lies with those who failed to control the situation on that awful day. There was a clearly defined area with a safe number of spectators to be allowed in that space. The fences were not the cause......... the police, the stewarding, the FA, the owners of the ground etc caused those deaths...... the fences are there to create a safe area......... it is up to those in control to manage the space, to ensure fans safety. A responsibility that was buried under lies and deceit by those who failed the 96 and their families on the day

 

[skybluelee]

So although they won 5 titles in the first 12 years of the FL, but none for the subsequent 28, they were still the clearly the number one club? After 28 years without a title? That's crazy talk.

They won six and six fa cups! Add to that the runners up spots. Of course they were ranked no 1 at the time.

See grendels post. Even now there is an argument to rank them 4th of all time.

 

[Black6Osprey]

35th? My there is some nonsense in this thread. Somebody please close it and put it out its misery. We averaged nearly 22000 in the championship just a few seasons ago. Highest level of support? How far do you want to go back? 67/68 we averaged 34,000 - that's more people than the Ricoh can hold.

Swindon? They are on a massive upwards spiral, we are at our lowest ebb in decades and we still get more than them. There are at least 6 clubs in the PL who we would get higher averages than if we were there.

If attendances are the true gauge of size (not saying it is btw), then you have to take a look over a long period, not take a silly snapshot and draw meaning from it.

You can't pull a list up that goes back forever, its like saying all Germans are Nazis. Times change.

If you add up attendances for the last 20 years so 10 Prem and 10 Championship it works out to 17,800. If you go back 30 years it goes a lot lower down to 14000 odd as the 80s were a piss poor time for crowds (I was a season ticket holder so I remember). If you really want to go back to the 60s and early 70s when Coventry was full of car workers from different parts of the country who just wanted to watch a game of footy and it cost nothing then yeah we are a massive club but lets get real here we haven't been really well supported for 40 years. If you really think Notts Forest, league and european cup winners with a consistently larger crowd than us for the last 30 years are a smaller club than us then enjoy your list cos its bollocks.

 

[Black6Osprey]

.............. as in much of life size doesnt matter its what you do with it that matters

Yeah but it helps if its big

 

[TheSnoz]

If the fences hadn't been there all those people would have got over the wall to safety. If the thugs hadn't behaved the way they did the fences would never have been erected. The logic is blinding. Anyone who has been involved in football thuggery must bear part of the blame.

 

[NobEnder]

PNE and Huddersfield fans must be very frustrated..

Frustrating times here at Deepdale.

We once got a attendance of 42k in 1938 so we are clearly a bigger club than Chelsea who only managed 41k in there last Premier league fixture at home.

We once also beat Hyde United by 26 goals, this clearly makes us bigger than Manchester United who lost their last game 2-3 at home to small timers Spurs.

As for Coventry, you wish you was the size of PNE. We are in the top 5 biggest clubs in England bracket, Fact.

 

[ashbyjan]

How big a club are we? We are currently in the bottom half of the Third Division with a set of owners who don't give a damn about getting us promoted so I would say we aren't very big at all. How big could we potentially be? Now that's a totally different question and potentially we should have a fan base able to sustain a top half Championship / bottom half Premiership side but there would have to be a lot of changes before that could happen.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

They won six and six fa cups! Add to that the runners up spots. Of course they were ranked no 1 at the time.

See grendels post. Even now there is an argument to rank them 4th of all time.

This is getting a bit pointless now, but...they didn't win 6 titles in the 28 years subsequent to the 1890's! They won one (in 1909) that I'd missed, and one more in the 1980's, but that means 1 in 30 years-NO club can claim to be clearly the biggest in the land with only a solitary league title in that quantity of time! They can claim to be the best of the 1890's, but you're saying for the first 40 years of the League, not the first decade. If they were that dominant, they'd have won it more than once in the "noughties". And to be the biggest club as you suggest throughout the 1900's, 1910's, and the 1920's, they would have needed more than one league title!

 

[TrueSkyBlueLiam]

If you look at how historic CCFC are and how long we were in the PL, you have to say we're a pretty big club, but if you've only just got into football and you see where we are now, you'd think we're a pretty small club, so it depends how you look at it

 

[Jack Griffin]

Where do you think we sit....

I think about 17th or 18th

I would say perhaps 25th, should be a championship yo yo club all things considered. We certainly punched above our weight for several decades, now the levels are balancing out a bit.

 

[Grendel]

This is getting a bit pointless now, but...they didn't win 6 titles in the 28 years subsequent to the 1890's! They won one (in 1909) that I'd missed, and one more in the 1980's, but that means 1 in 30 years-NO club can claim to be clearly the biggest in the land with only a solitary league title in that quantity of time! They can claim to be the best of the 1890's, but you're saying for the first 40 years of the League, not the first decade. If they were that dominant, they'd have won it more than once in the "noughties". And to be the biggest club as you suggest throughout the 1900's, 1910's, and the 1920's, they would have needed more than one league title!

As stated on the crieria which seems reasonable they are 4th.

If you take a straight points tally on all games ever played Aston Villa are 8th with 5197 points off 4438 games the 7 above them are;

Man U
Liverpool
Aresenal
Preston
Wolves
Sheff Utd
Everton

Probably best not to dwell on Coventry's position based on that particular measure.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Ahhh.. now I get it, Grendel is a Villa Troll

 

[Grendel]

Ahhh.. now I get it, Grendel is a Villa Troll

Er...no I am just pointing out the statistics. I can lie and say that they are 70th if you like.

 

[WillieStanley]

How big a club are we? We are currently in the bottom half of the Third Division with a set of owners who don't give a damn about getting us promoted so I would say we aren't very big at all. How big could we potentially be? Now that's a totally different question and potentially we should have a fan base able to sustain a top half Championship / bottom half Premiership side but there would have to be a lot of changes before that could happen.

Do you ever post anything without it being a snide remark about SISU nowadays?

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

As stated on the crieria which seems reasonable they are 4th.

If you take a straight points tally on all games ever played Aston Villa are 8th with 5197 points off 4438 games the 7 above them are;

Man U
Liverpool
Aresenal
Preston
Wolves
Sheff Utd
Everton

Probably best not to dwell on Coventry's position based on that particular measure.

And that has what exactly to do with me refuting the assertion that Villa were clearly the biggest club in the league for its first 40 years?

There's lies, damn lies, and then there's Duffy's totally irrelevant statistics

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Do you ever post anything without it being a snide remark about SISU nowadays?

Ask Tim Fisher, he's good at snide.


Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Sick Boy]

If you look at how historic CCFC are and how long we were in the PL, you have to say we're a pretty big club, but if you've only just got into football and you see where we are now, you'd think we're a pretty small club, so it depends how you look at it

What about all those years before we got to the top flight?

I can't believe this is still being debated.

I would wager that the majority of football fans (of the bigger clubs) see us a insignificant and a tinpot club, that is if they even remember that we even exist.

 

[Astute]

The thugs that caused Hillsborough are called South Yorkshire police.

This is so wrong.

Did you go to Hillsborough in 87? In the QF I got there with 15 mins to go before the kickoff. My feet lifted off the floor because of the crush to get to the turnstiles. I am not exactly small. It was dangerous each time we scored. If you ended up on the floor you were in trouble. Same as if you ended up against any of the barriers. I arrived earlier for the SF because of the crush to get in. Was just as bad during the game though.

The whole thing about who was to blame stinks. The police tried to cover things up. To me though the F.A. were at least as bad. The stadium never had a safety certificate as they should have had. The F.A. would have known this, but still chose Hillsborough to hold these ties. Is it the fault of the police for letting everyone in or the F.A. for chosing Hillsborough for big games? Yes the police tried doing a cover up job, but so did the F.A.

If anyone is ever held accountable for what happened on that dreadful day it should be whoever was in charge that day for the police, anyone who tried to cover up the truth, whoever was in charge of the F.A. for giving such a big game to a ground without a safety certificate and also who was in charge for safety at Hillsborough at the time. The truth is finally out but I can't see anyone being held accountable for what happened.

 

[valiant15]

I was upstairs in the seats for the quarter final thank god.

 

[fernandopartridge]

This is so wrong.

Did you go to Hillsborough in 87? In the QF I got there with 15 mins to go before the kickoff. My feet lifted off the floor because of the crush to get to the turnstiles. I am not exactly small. It was dangerous each time we scored. If you ended up on the floor you were in trouble. Same as if you ended up against any of the barriers. I arrived earlier for the SF because of the crush to get in. Was just as bad during the game though.

The whole thing about who was to blame stinks. The police tried to cover things up. To me though the F.A. were at least as bad. The stadium never had a safety certificate as they should have had. The F.A. would have known this, but still chose Hillsborough to hold these ties. Is it the fault of the police for letting everyone in or the F.A. for chosing Hillsborough for big games? Yes the police tried doing a cover up job, but so did the F.A.

If anyone is ever held accountable for what happened on that dreadful day it should be whoever was in charge that day for the police, anyone who tried to cover up the truth, whoever was in charge of the F.A. for giving such a big game to a ground without a safety certificate and also who was in charge for safety at Hillsborough at the time. The truth is finally out but I can't see anyone being held accountable for what happened.

The FA, Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield City Council are indirectly responsible.

The Police are directly responsible as the severe crush was caused by them opening the gate and forcing the fans into the middle pen. It was the Police who then initiated the massive cover up, aided and abetted by the government at the time.

 

[Astute]

I see the F.A. as nearly as much to blame. That ground would never have got a safety certificate for so many people. If it did have one then it would have been manslaughter by the police. The warning signs were there. All of us that were there in 87 will agree for sure.

How far do we go with the blame though? Hooligans that made the use of fences seen as needed?

 

[sly_old_fox]

Nah, loads of clubs move from their "true level". Just watch The Big Match Revisited on ITV4 every week and you'll see plenty of evidence. This week we had Luton battling clear from the top flight relegation zone (thanks partly to a cracking assist by Kirk Stephens ), whilst Chelsea dropped into the drop-zone in the third tier (L1 in modern parlance). Luton are now in the BSP, Chelsea at the top of the Premiership. I'd say that Chelsea's "true level" is lower half of the top-flight; Luton's is mid-table Championship.

And don't get me started on Fulham, Wigan, Reading, etc.

I don't think you are correct there, maybe in the second tier yes

 

[Grendel]

I don't think you are correct there, maybe in the second tier yes

Correct. Chelsea have never been in that league. In fact despite being considered a relatively small club until the cash influx they have spent 87 years in top flight football and 19 years in the second tier.

 

[skybluelee]

This is getting a bit pointless now, but...they didn't win 6 titles in the 28 years subsequent to the 1890's! They won one (in 1909) that I'd missed, and one more in the 1980's, but that means 1 in 30 years-NO club can claim to be clearly the biggest in the land with only a solitary league title in that quantity of time! They can claim to be the best of the 1890's, but you're saying for the first 40 years of the League, not the first decade. If they were that dominant, they'd have won it more than once in the "noughties". And to be the biggest club as you suggest throughout the 1900's, 1910's, and the 1920's, they would have needed more than one league title!

By 1931 they had won 6 league title, were runners up 6 times, had won the FA Cup 6 times and had been runners up twice. Which side between 1889 and 1931 (42 years) can lay claim to having achieved more?

 

[Astute]

If football results were determined by how much the fans moan we would be top of the Prem and the most successful club ever

 

[Godiva]

I was having a conversation with a Villa fan, and he said that most clubs never really move from their true level. He used Swindon as an example and said if you think of Swindon you generally think of the third tier. He said (and he wasn't trying to rub my nose in it) that we were a similar entity. Clearly I pointed out the error of his ways...but he went on to say if he imagined all the clubs in the football league he'd rank us about 28th. (Villa 7th..so clearly he's wrong there) Of course there are lots of things you can measure, gates, trophies, length in top flight, history, ground etc, etc.

Where do you think we sit....

I think about 17th or 18th

An old thread I know, but the subject has been discussed quite often.

What defines 'a big club'? Is it history, attendances, league position ... ?

Without looking at the link below - where do you think we rank in terms of points earned in all leagues over the years?
17th? 20th? 28th?


http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/all-time-table

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I would guess we are a lot lower than that.....

with a few notable exceptions, We've spent pretty much all of my lifetime in the bottom 6 of the division we are in, losing more than we win.....

I'd guess we are about 80th.......

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

We're about the size of Doncaster, Barnsley now

 

[Godiva]

We're about the size of Doncaster, Barnsley now

Yes to Doncaster - Barnsley is way ahead of us (all time ranking).

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/all-time-table

 

[oldskyblue58]

I guessed (largely because of how you put the question) that it would be quite low possibly between 50 and 60.

What is interesting is the names of the clubs still in the FL that are below us ...... the "bigger" names are Ipswich, Wigan, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Peterborough but that's about it the rest are where you might expect, non league or do not exist any more.

Not the most heartening of stats Godiva

 

[Godiva]

I guessed (largely because of how you put the question) that it would be quite low possibly between 50 and 60.

What is interesting is the names of the clubs still in the FL that are below us ...... the "bigger" names are Ipswich, Wigan, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Peterborough but that's about it the rest are where you might expect, non league or do not exist any more.

Not the most heartening of stats Godiva

I know, I'm sorry.
We say a league table doesn't lie over the course of a season, so it's fair to say the ranking isn't half wrong over the course of some 130 years.
Interestingly that puts us exactly where we are right now.