How Hedge Funds work !!! (2 Viewers)

[giveusagoal]

I think I could have explained that above, it seems to me that Ranson paid for the opportunity to run a Football club with ProZone.

Do you think that is a credible explaination or not?

I think you are not far off the mark in that Ranson wanted to run a football club and looked for investors - Maybe SISU got conned - or thought they knew better - either way they have messed up and should go.

 

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[Grendel]

They are not acting like a typical football club owner - they have continued to sell our best players and failed to re-invest that money in the playing staff. They are not football people - look at some of the decisions they have made and the people they have brought in/ got rid of/ left after only a few months - How many clubs is this typical of?

Dennis Mortimer, Ian Wallace, Garry Gillespie, Kevin Gallacher, Terry Gibson, Darren Huckerby, Dion Dublin, Chris Kirkland, Calum Davenport plus hundreds of others - all sold under SISU.

11 managers in 10 years -- all fired under SISU

As I say just a typical football club owner

 

[giveusagoal]

Dennis Mortimer, Ian Wallace, Garry Gillespie, Kevin Gallacher, Terry Gibson, Darren Huckerby, Dion Dublin, Chris Kirkland, Calum Davenport plus hundreds of others - all sold under SISU.

11 managers in 10 years -- all fired under SISU

As I say just a typical football club owner

Many of them wanted to leave and not just sold to balance the books.

The real problems started before SISU arrived - i do not deny this.

But we never had a habit of selling our top scorer year after year under all those previous owners.

None of the other owners let things get so bad and invested so little that we ended up in, what is in essence Division 3. Nor did they suggest we text who we want to be substituted - or sit on the bench with the manager - or make promise after promise that they didn't keep. They didn't have more managers than they had years of ownership.

SISU are not healthy for our club - they have done nothing of any lasting value.

 

[sky blue john]

Sisu have made a profit on player sales during there tenure !!!!
How the hell have they lost 45million pounds then ?
They have lost 45million and even managed to put us in a worse position then when they took over !!!!

 

[giveusagoal]

Sisu have made a profit on player sales during there tenure !!!!
How the hell have they lost 45million pounds then ?
They have lost 45million and even managed to put us in a worse position then when they took over !!!!

SBJ - it would be a mixture of both their fixed and controlable running costs such as the rent/ wages/ kits/ training/ transport etc. etc. that would take up the money.

Even Hoffman spoke of needing £10 million to pay continuing losses when he spoke of taking over the club - yawn - but i cant remember on which occassion there has been so many false dawns.

 

[Jack Griffin]

How the hell have they lost 45million pounds then ?

Maybe the club is leveraged to that amount?

Apart from the rent the bills are still being paid as far as we know, where the money comes from, no idea?

 

[giveusagoal]

Maybe the club is leveraged to that amount?

Apart from the rent the bills are still being paid as far as we know, where the money comes from, no idea?

The club still generate an income - and they have already cut their costs in wages etc. Their biggest outlay over which they have no control is the rent - the problem is we have two competing interested parties here because there is an outstanding mortgage on the stadium that has to be paid by someone - somehow.

 

[Grendel]

I think I could have explained that above, it seems to me that Ranson paid for the opportunity to run a Football club with ProZone.

Do you think that is a credible explaination or not?

I do actually though Godiva questioned this when I suggested it.

 

[smouch1975]

SISU like all hedge funds took an absolute canning in the GFC massively reducing their collateral

Of course it was their intent to get us back in the PL in one season. And score a big time payout.
Obviously given they had no football knowledge they fecked that one right up.

There are issues here immediately to CCFC, but remember there is still another round of GFC to come. A further down turn in the U.S export market might lead to the closure of CCFC yet.

Out of our control. Concentrating on a win over Crewe again this weekend.

PUSB

 

[Godiva]

They had poor financial controls from the outset. Ransom was profligate with the budget. They have never had a co-ordinated plan to make any financial return. They have continued to fund a loss making institution with virtually no hope of recouping losses. What hedge fund behaves like a typical football club owner as sisu are doing. I'd have closed the shop 2 years ago.

I think I could have explained that above, it seems to me that Ranson paid for the opportunity to run a Football club with ProZone.

Do you think that is a credible explaination or not?

I think you are not far off the mark in that Ranson wanted to run a football club and looked for investors - Maybe SISU got conned - or thought they knew better - either way they have messed up and should go.

I do actually though Godiva questioned this when I suggested it.

Sisu did have a plan when they took over:
1) Stabilize the finanses
2) Gain promotion to PL
3) Buy the stadium
... and in that particular order.

It was indeed Ranson who persuaded sisu to raise the money. In addition Ranson put in his own Prozone and thereby became shareholder (18%). The board was setup with only 1 sisu rep, and this is actually a normal setup. When all plans and budgets have been drawn up, the main investor sits back and let the professionels do the hard work. Sisu injected the money the plans required and their means of overall control was to deny new money if the plans were not on track. In the third year it was clear the plans were failing and that the club was struggling to manage the cashflow. In the end Ranson, Hoffman and Elliot resigned ... they had no other options. They were in reality frozen out.

Ranson lost Prozone as the club sold it (with a very nice profit). The loan to Ranson was probably paid out, but we don't know until we see the next set of accounts (due any minute, but likely to be delayed until summer).

So two years ago sisu took control and they are now hands on. Fisher/Waggot and Labovitch are all appointed by sisu and as Fisher said the other day they are in daily contact with JS.

In short: Grendal, there was a plan and leaving the operation to professionals is normal practise. In this case one of the professionals even had his own money invested.
giveusagoal and Jack, yes it was Ransons idea from start. Sisu were not conned, they knew exacvtly what they got into. What nobody knew was a global credit crunch was just around the corner which would change just about everything and wreck all plans and budgets.

 

[lordsummerisle]

I think I could have explained that above, it seems to me that Ranson paid for the opportunity to run a Football club with ProZone.

Do you think that is a credible explaination or not?

The Ranson paid with Pro-zone thing is an enormous red herring, and like the red herring, anything connected to Ranson smells a bit fishy.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/18454-Prozone-and-RR

 

[Jack Griffin]

SISU like all hedge funds took an absolute canning in the GFC massively reducing their collateral

What the devil is a GFC? Oh I got it Global Financial crises.

I f****ing hate a TLA

 

[Tank Top]

Depends on how fair they want the maidens to be.

If they are as fair as SISU, they are going to be Bandy legged
Hairy lipped, Hard hearted Bitches

 

[dongonzalos]

What the devil is a GFC?

Gloucester Football Club, we are ground sharing with them soon. They recently cut their grass

 

[dongonzalos]

Global financial Crisis.....

 

[dongonzalos]

So SISU went more hands on two years ago. 1st year went well.
Fingers crossed for this one.
Report so far on field ok should do better with your natural ability.
Off field easily distracted and fallen in with the wrong crowd.

As a result of this his potential is not fully developed.

 

[Godiva]

The Ranson paid with Pro-zone thing is an enormous red herring, and like the red herring, anything connected to Ranson smells a bit fishy.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/18454-Prozone-and-RR

RR or Arley have taken from the SBS&L Group (including CCFC) £1,080k for RR's services, £440K in interest and repaid £1.5m in just over 3 years.

Prozone was sold for about 7mio, Ranson got about 2mio in interests and repayment - I leave out the 1mio as they can be considered wages for his CEO position (in effect he funded his own wages while he was here). So Ranson actually lost 5mio. Unless the next accounts show more has been paid to Ranson - like a golden handshake.

 

[Godiva]

So SISU went more hands on two years ago. 1st year went well.
Fingers crossed for this one.
Report so far on field ok should do better with your natural ability.
Off field easily distracted and fallen in with the wrong crowd.

As a result of this his potential is not fully developed.

You think so? Or are you being sarcastic?
It was the year of the sisu-out-campaign, so not all think it went too well.

It was also the year where I earned my title of %¤#& ¤¤"&&/ sisu muppet.

 

[Jack Griffin]

So he paid £2.5M pa for his time in charge.

So SISU hedged against his failure with his assets.

 

[Godiva]

So he paid £2.5M pa for his time in charge.

So SISU hedged against his failure with his assets.

You can spin it anyway you want, the fact is that all investors like the 'entrepreneur' (Ranson in this case) having his own hand on the frying pan. His ability to succeed or fail reflect proportional on the profit or loss for each party this way.

Having said that, I like to think he payed a hefty fine for his crime against the club!

 

[lordsummerisle]

Prozone was sold for about 7mio, Ranson got about 2mio in interests and repayment - I leave out the 1mio as they can be considered wages for his CEO position (in effect he funded his own wages while he was here). So Ranson actually lost 5mio. Unless the next accounts show more has been paid to Ranson - like a golden handshake.

Did it actually get sold for £7million? Not seen any figures anywhere to confirm that?

Thought that the interest and repayments he received were for a seperate £1.5million loan to SBS&L(at very high interest)?

Either way, if he was being repaid for(dubiously profitable) Pro-zone, it's not exactly "buying a stake" with it is it?


Also,from OSB's dissection of the figures, you can see that Pro-zone was actually making little or no profit.

 

[oldskyblue58]

you just know i have to reply to that

Sisu did have a plan when they took over:
1) Stabilize the finanses
2) Gain promotion to PL
3) Buy the stadium
... and in that particular order. in your opinion, because it actually makes more sense to me to buy the stadium before getting in Premiership..... and we do not actually know the objectives SISU had........... RR might have had those objectives do we know SISU did?

It was indeed Ranson who persuaded sisu to raise the money are we sure of that ?. In addition Ranson put in his own Prozone and thereby became shareholder (18%). that i agree withThe board was setup with only 1 sisu rep, and this is actually a normal setup. yes that I agree with When all plans and budgets have been drawn up, the main investor sits back and let the professionels do the hard work. except that such investors require skilled financial professionals as well as football ones, together with detailed regular (probably monthly) reports on how things are going, so that does not excuse the apparent lack of finacial oversight going on from day 1..... this was a high risk investment in a distressed company any financial institution manages the risk from Day 1 Sisu injected the money the plans required (not all at once it was on the drip)and their means of overall control was to deny new money if the plans were not on track. In the third year it was clear the plans were failing given there should have been regular finacial reports I bet the tap was actually turned off earlier, there would have had to be approval for each amount put in and that the club was struggling to manage the cashflow nothing new there then. In the end Ranson, Hoffman and Elliot resigned ... they had no other options. They were in reality frozen out. possibly but we dont actually know

Ranson lost Prozone as the club sold it (with a very nice profit). Ranson didnt own it after 2008 so how did he lose it ?The loan to Ranson was probably paid out, but we don't know until we see the next set of accounts (due any minute, but likely to be delayed until summer).

So two years ago sisu took control and they are now hands on proper financial controls seem to have come in with TF - he was appointed Jan 2012. Fisher/Waggot and Labovitch are all appointed by sisu and as Fisher said the other day they are in daily contact with JS. So in reality JS is in control?

In short: Grendal, there was a plan and leaving the operation to professionals is normal practise yes but so is oversight by the investor, and ensuring the professionals know what they are doing on high risk investments . In this case one of the professionals even had his own money invested think we could debate whether RR was a financial professional or simply a footbal/ sports one.
giveusagoal and Jack, yes it was Ransons idea from start. Sisu were not conned, they knew exacvtly what they got into yes and failed to do the due diligence they required. What nobody knew was a global credit crunch was just around the corner which would change just about everything and wreck all plans and budgets you see for the rest of us this hangs true but for a hedge fund betting against falls in value is their profession?, not everyone made losses in that period, there were some that made money because of it are we sure that SISU didnt? ...... and had SISU investigated properly then they would have seen from the start the two major problems (Wages and Rent in that order)..... and as people regularly involved in the markets they must have known there were problems coming, those problems were evident when they bought in (Warren Buffet - top USA financier was high lighting them in 2007 for example).

Difference of opinions Godiva

 

[dongonzalos]

You think so? Or are you being sarcastic?
It was the year of the sisu-out-campaign, so not all think it went too well.

It was also the year where I earned my title of %¤#& ¤¤"&&/ sisu muppet.

Sorry mate thought you are saying in the last two years SISU went hands on.

I was sarcastic as they made clear decisions that caused our relegation to division 3. IMO

 

[oldskyblue58]

Prozone was sold for about 7mio, Ranson got about 2mio in interests and repayment - I leave out the 1mio as they can be considered wages for his CEO position (in effect he funded his own wages while he was here). So Ranson actually lost 5mio. Unless the next accounts show more has been paid to Ranson - like a golden handshake.

RR did not lose £5m at all ............. Prozone was introduced into SBS&L Group at a value he accepted, that is when he made his gain or loss as far as Prozone goes. The gain when Prozone was sold on was entirely SBS&L Groups in which RR had shares until he left