shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
Fletch referred to this on CWR, anyone know the actual cash paid in by these parties, he was insinuating that its a lot less than we all think.
How much did ACL & the Council actually put in (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter shy_tall_knight
- Start date
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Showed this the other day.
The council paid in £10million, don't think that ACL as such paid anything in, but paid £21million to CCC for a 50 year lease.
The council paid in £10million, don't think that ACL as such paid anything in, but paid £21million to CCC for a 50 year lease.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
I guess SISU know and have offered that.
Would ACL except that?
Would ACL except that?
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
The council report on the project has been posted on this site many times, go find it..
Tesco stumped up by far the largest % for the right to own the Arena Park Shopping Centre land & build a superstore. The council & various grants made up the rest.
CCFC put in nothing, but originally had a 1/2 share in the stadium, which they subsequently sold to the Higgs Charity for £6.5M & ended up paying rent.
Tesco stumped up by far the largest % for the right to own the Arena Park Shopping Centre land & build a superstore. The council & various grants made up the rest.
CCFC put in nothing, but originally had a 1/2 share in the stadium, which they subsequently sold to the Higgs Charity for £6.5M & ended up paying rent.
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Think that CCFC had a half-share in ACL which is totally different to a half-share in the stadium.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Fair enough, but ACL own the stadium & the freehold don't they?
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
ACL only own the leasehold, the freehold is via a convoluted set of different companies owned by CCC.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Sorry, I meant lease hold.. doh, I'm getting tired.
LewSkyBlue
New Member
If i remember correctly, when the ricoh was being built it was headlined as a new £32m stadium. so lordsummerisle saying £10m council and £21m acl could well be accurate. i know it was years back but i would immagine combined its no more than £40m at most.
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Build cost of the Stadium was £113million, of which only £10million was paid by the council.
They then immediately received £21million for the 50m year lease from ACL(which was what the Yorkshire Bank mortgage was for, now changed into a £14million loan to the council).
ACL didn't pay anything to build the Arena, merely set up to manage the running of it.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Thats my understanding as well so the council are already £10m up and I have vague memories of a figure of £40m being thrown around to purchase their share. Higgs paid around £6m for half of ACL and it was generally accepted that the buy back formula worked out to around £10m. Why could both parties just sell their share to CCFC at the same amount they have put in? From what PF said on CWR it's not a case of them not wanting to sell to SISU, they don't seem to want to sell to anyone without making a big profit. I guess only those on the inside know how that is and we don't have much chance of getting much truth out of anyone!
coundonskyblue
New Member
Sisu don't honour their contracts to buy.
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
I thought ACL took out a loan of £21m to complete the stadium - they did not pay this to the council
£113m total cost less £21 m paid by ACL, less £10m paid by the council.
How was the other £82m funded, Tesco land sale (£60m) & the costs incurred by CCFC (£20m)
£113m total cost less £21 m paid by ACL, less £10m paid by the council.
How was the other £82m funded, Tesco land sale (£60m) & the costs incurred by CCFC (£20m)
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Ah, none of them can be trusted SISU, The Council or Higgs. They're all after cash. That's all.
LewSkyBlue
New Member
I may be getting mixed up, i knew there was £32m somewhere (sounds like the acl+council)....somewhere though it just doesnt add up. There is a lot more behind the scenes that we dont know about
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
You're wrong, the £21million paid by ACL was just for the 50 year lease.
Paid to the council.
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
Wow some wacky thoughts here. In fact it is so long ago I can't remember anymore either.
Roughly though :
The football club originally bought the land, Robinson I think stumped up money and the football club put in 10m at the beginning.
When they could not fund the project the council stepped in to rescue the build. Tesco already put in 60m which Robinson brokered.
I think it was about 30 or 40 m raised capital that did the rest. That capital raised by the council who own it outright now (one cheap way of profiteering from the football club) is now being paid back by ACL in the form of rent to the council! ACL were formed by the council to run the stadium on a lease.
Higgs bought into that ACL company a half share in the lease that is the golden ticket referred to that the football club have a right to purchase back.
The build in total was some 110m of which the football club originally help with and Tesco gave enormously to. Do Tesco have any stake? No. The council have it all!
The crux is as fletcher said eventually you can't have other people effectively running the football club which ACL are almost doing as lease holders and handing out all the profit making to other sub leases for parking, F&B and the rest of it? What were the council thinking?
SISU have simply brought it to a head that was inevitable for any owner.
Now ACL say they agree the stadium should be owned by the football club? Well they have a funny way of doing it from the get go. Simply claiming they don't get along with the current owners on a personal level and the council - oh yes have a veto! (who's in charge here?) is out of order.
I was prepared to sit between the two sides but after this Peter guy from ACL I'm realising just what dumb asses they and the council have been. Yet they have the gall to suggest they are doing it for the football club's saviour?
Where were they in negotiations when we had the last 11th hour? Did they offer the stadium then? I think not.
You reap what you sow.
SISU have been difficult and that's an understatement but they have tried to get something that will put the football club on the right track , not just for them but for future owners. I fear ACL would find the same brinkmanship and hard nosed bargaining whoever wanted the football club.
Personally ACL should be dismantled as a bad idea. the council should offer up the stadium to bidders with the single caveat that the football club should be inclusive. As we already have owners in SISU at least give them a way past this. I'm not suggesting they give it to them wholly but some rights to agree to see them recoup proven investment a bit and then contractually leave for a new owner to own it outright at a price that Fletcher was intimating. By my reckoning that is somewhere around 30/40m and that would bring a shit load of investors to the club. The council could even offer the land investment opportunity separately or jointly with the club.
Either way eventually local government do not have a foot in local business and get on with being a council.
Rant over.
Roughly though :
The football club originally bought the land, Robinson I think stumped up money and the football club put in 10m at the beginning.
When they could not fund the project the council stepped in to rescue the build. Tesco already put in 60m which Robinson brokered.
I think it was about 30 or 40 m raised capital that did the rest. That capital raised by the council who own it outright now (one cheap way of profiteering from the football club) is now being paid back by ACL in the form of rent to the council! ACL were formed by the council to run the stadium on a lease.
Higgs bought into that ACL company a half share in the lease that is the golden ticket referred to that the football club have a right to purchase back.
The build in total was some 110m of which the football club originally help with and Tesco gave enormously to. Do Tesco have any stake? No. The council have it all!
The crux is as fletcher said eventually you can't have other people effectively running the football club which ACL are almost doing as lease holders and handing out all the profit making to other sub leases for parking, F&B and the rest of it? What were the council thinking?
SISU have simply brought it to a head that was inevitable for any owner.
Now ACL say they agree the stadium should be owned by the football club? Well they have a funny way of doing it from the get go. Simply claiming they don't get along with the current owners on a personal level and the council - oh yes have a veto! (who's in charge here?) is out of order.
I was prepared to sit between the two sides but after this Peter guy from ACL I'm realising just what dumb asses they and the council have been. Yet they have the gall to suggest they are doing it for the football club's saviour?
Where were they in negotiations when we had the last 11th hour? Did they offer the stadium then? I think not.
You reap what you sow.
SISU have been difficult and that's an understatement but they have tried to get something that will put the football club on the right track , not just for them but for future owners. I fear ACL would find the same brinkmanship and hard nosed bargaining whoever wanted the football club.
Personally ACL should be dismantled as a bad idea. the council should offer up the stadium to bidders with the single caveat that the football club should be inclusive. As we already have owners in SISU at least give them a way past this. I'm not suggesting they give it to them wholly but some rights to agree to see them recoup proven investment a bit and then contractually leave for a new owner to own it outright at a price that Fletcher was intimating. By my reckoning that is somewhere around 30/40m and that would bring a shit load of investors to the club. The council could even offer the land investment opportunity separately or jointly with the club.
Either way eventually local government do not have a foot in local business and get on with being a council.
Rant over.
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Here is the link(again) of the Construction report.
Look at the diagram at the back for a particularly good example of smoke and mirrors.
http://moderngov.coventry.gov.uk/Da...08 - Arena Construction Completion Report.pdf
Look at the diagram at the back for a particularly good example of smoke and mirrors.
http://moderngov.coventry.gov.uk/Da...08 - Arena Construction Completion Report.pdf
Sky Blues
Active Member
I think you have misunderstood it. As I understand it, there was a £31million shortfall in the budget (I'm ignoring the fit out costs in saying this) which was covered by the council through a £10million equity investment and £21million of prudential borrowing. The council then sold a lease on the stadium to ACL for £21million. ACL pays for this with a £21million loan from Yorkshire Bank. ACL then charge CCFC and other tenants rent to pay off this loan, cover other costs and make some profit which has been reinvested into the stadium complex. So the £21million of prudential borrowing by the council is paid off by the Yorkshire Bank loan.
Therefore the council has, I think, still got the £10m of equity sunk into the stadium, and will be liable, if ACL were to go bust, to the Public Works Loan Board for the £15million or so loan that was taken out to repay what was left of the Yorkshire Bank loan when that financing was restructured.
I don't think anyone has made money from this stadium yet apart from Yorkshire Bank.
Just my understanding of the situation and happy to be corrected.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
No, the club never bought or owned the land.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Talk about being blind to the facts.
SISU are out of pocket by millions but continue to fight to at least break even.
That said, I guess the plan was to buy low, get the club in the premiership and sell high.
A result we would all settle for.
SISU must still want this otherwise they could pull out now and save millions in the next few years.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Just seeking a clarification, http://moderngov.coventry.gov.uk/Da...08 - Arena Construction Completion Report.pdf
Above document states £59.4M was put in to build costs from 'Tesco land sale receipt', this being the money paid by Tesco to develop Arena Park (must be quids in by now, that store has a huge turnover)
However am I right in thinking that the Council bought the land (the whole Arena & Arena Park site) from British Gas before selling part of it to Tesco and used the profits to fund the majority of the Stadium build.
If they did that when did they buy from British Gas and how much did they pay them?
Above document states £59.4M was put in to build costs from 'Tesco land sale receipt', this being the money paid by Tesco to develop Arena Park (must be quids in by now, that store has a huge turnover)
However am I right in thinking that the Council bought the land (the whole Arena & Arena Park site) from British Gas before selling part of it to Tesco and used the profits to fund the majority of the Stadium build.
If they did that when did they buy from British Gas and how much did they pay them?
hutch1972
Well-Known Member
The land was derelict for over 20 years before ccfc came along, ccc had tried for years to get someone to do something with it but were never successful .
I for one would love to know how much they paid for it, if indeed they did .
It was that badly contaminated it was probably given to them.
The sale of land to Tesco was brokered by Bryan Richardson iirc. Why would CCFC be involved in the sale of land owned by the council if they had no stake in it?
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
I just want a number and the date of land sale mate, B.Gas to Council.
I agree BR & CCFC may have been paid for brokering the deal, but would be a small % of land sale cost., something like £250K/500K tops, anyway I reckon that will be under a non disclosure agreement, so no point asking.
I agree BR & CCFC may have been paid for brokering the deal, but would be a small % of land sale cost., something like £250K/500K tops, anyway I reckon that will be under a non disclosure agreement, so no point asking.
James Smith
Well-Known Member
Yes it was my understanding that BR was the one who persuaded Tesco to get involved. Can't imagine it took much persuading Tesco are always on the lookout for land, but he did get a very large sum out of them, more than I think some thought it was worth.
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
All sorts of interesting little snippets there, £800,000 to fit out the Leisure Centre? How long did that last?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
You can try to find out on the Land Registry website, although when I looked it didn't have the purchase price available.
Interesting snippet from a story published in the Guardian when the Ricoh opened
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
CCC did well out of the whole deal, CCFC were broke, it gave us a stay of execution but ultimately they further strangled the club not only with the rent but also the lost revenue streams. I recognise CCFC sold these rights but ACL should have refused to buy them.
SISU were right to pursue stadium rent and revenue streams but this should have been 5 years ago, the way they have run the club has ensured that they would never get the stadium and we are where we are.
SISU were right to pursue stadium rent and revenue streams but this should have been 5 years ago, the way they have run the club has ensured that they would never get the stadium and we are where we are.
hutch1972
Well-Known Member
As the land belonged to BG ( we are presuming it was ) it became derelict and totally unusable in around 1977 , that was before privatisation so maybe it was government owned ?
James Smith
Well-Known Member
There was also the cost of decontamination of the land I've just remembered.
So - after you have digested all the figures in this thread can I quietly ask once more:
What if ACL ...
What if ACL ...
... were owned solely by CCC?
What if a charity had never been involved?
Would it had made any difference to the negotiations?
Would there ever have been a rent strike?
Would we the fans have demanded the city to sell ACL to the club at the prize of the mortgage?
Would this have ever gone to the court?
Just asking.
What if a charity had never been involved?
Would it had made any difference to the negotiations?
Would there ever have been a rent strike?
Would we the fans have demanded the city to sell ACL to the club at the prize of the mortgage?
Would this have ever gone to the court?
Just asking.
James Smith
Well-Known Member
If they want to break even so desperately, why did they reject the last offer from ACL which to me seemed very reasonable?
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
They don't do themselves any favours by not telling us the reason.
The deal sounded okay but something must have been wrong. Some conditions not mentioned by ACL perhaps