How was Thorn at fault today? (3 Viewers)

[Yorkshire SB]

Please someone tell me what Thorn did wrong today tactically?

We dominated the first half and had a deserved lead. Is he going to make any radical changes at half time, no.

We look comfortable and give away a daft penalty. This changed the game, a players error. The second goal came because Brown was out of position and Malaga didn't pick up his man. I'm not sure what Thorn could have done to prevent that, these are faults by the players, not the manager. At some point the players have to take responsibility, it can't always be tactics employed by the manager.

Also Ball and Brown are useless, if we can bring in some other loan players, cancel their deals immediately!

 

---

[Nick]

Agreed about the player, it was a silly penalty.

How did Bury get a draw today? Great changes by their manager which meant they were piling pressure on us and if they could shoot on target would have beaten us.

Can anybody explain why he made that double substitution after they scored their 2nd? All it did was take away any threat we had during the game.

I don't think anybody does say it is ALL Thorn's fault.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

At some point the players have to take responsibility, it can't always be tactics employed by the manager.

The players don't have to take responsibility. That sucks, I know all of us feel that we would give maximum effort for a game and club we love in return for massive rewards. But there are just too many of them...if you want to improve an army, you change the leadership, you don't wait for the soldiers to have a personal reinvention.

 

[Sutty]

What was he at fault for? Writing the names 'Cody McDonald' and 'Carl Baker' on a bit of paper and handing it to the fourth official.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

The players don't have to take responsibility. That sucks, I know all of us feel that we would give maximum effort for a game and club we love in return for massive rewards. But there are just too many of them...if you want to improve an army, you change the leadership, you don't wait for the soldiers to have a personal reinvention.

That's just not true, at some point the players do have to take responsibility.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

Agreed about the player, it was a silly penalty.

How did Bury get a draw today? Great changes by their manager which meant they were piling pressure on us and if they could shoot on target would have beaten us.

Can anybody explain why he made that double substitution after they scored their 2nd? All it did was take away any threat we had during the game.

I don't think anybody does say it is ALL Thorn's fault.

Well if you were watching, Ball was coming on before they got the second goal anyway to replace Cody, who looked shattered and was ineffective in the second half. McSheffrey was brought on as a reaction to their second goal (aside from Baker's goal, he was incredibly wasteful), and he almost got a goal, so in my opinion it was the right decision to make.

 

[ohitsaidwalker king power]

At the risk of sounding like Alan Hansen...The defensive line in the second half was shocking...on numerous occasions the centre half's were at six's and sevens with the full backs and vice versa... more like a zigzag than a line....the second goal being a case in point.... again down our right hand side as on Tuesday... I think we all agree Reece Brown looks very uncomfortable at right back... he isnt one...maybe Wood should play there... so back to your question...is this Andy Thorns fault... yep in my book it is... all teams get injuries... Brown was woeful on Tuesday and yet he puts him at right back again...why?

 

[Yorkshire SB]

At the risk of sounding like Alan Hansen...The defensive line in the second half was shocking...on numerous occasions the centre half's were at six's and sevens with the full backs and vice versa... more like zigzag than a line....the second goal being a case in point.... again down our right hand side... I think we all agree Reece Brown looks very uncomfortable at right back... maybe Wood should play there... so back to your question...is this Andy Thorns fault... yep in my book it is... all teams get injuries... Brown was woeful on Tuesday and yet he puts him at right back again...why?

Who do we have that could've played right back instead?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

That's just not true, at some point the players do have to take responsibility.

I don't know how you qualify that. Leadership positions are in every industry for a reason - to hold an individual accountable for the production of the unit.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

What was he at fault for? Writing the names 'Cody McDonald' and 'Carl Baker' on a bit of paper and handing it to the fourth official.

Yeah because at 2-2, this was definitely the turning point...

 

[Yorkshire SB]

I don't know how you qualify that. Leadership positions are in every industry for a reason - to hold an individual accountable for the production of the unit.

First of all, he is not manager of a sales team trying to meet a target, and secondly that first half performance was not far from perfect today. HOW is Thorn meant to account for that second half performance, individual player errors, Wood stupidly and unnecessarily gifting them a penalty, and then Brown being horrendously out of position for the second. PLEASE tell me why the players are not accountable for this!?

 

[Sutty]

Yeah because at 2-2, this was definitely the turning point...

You asked what Thorn could be blamed for so I answered.

The reason we threw away the lead was Richard Wood's stupidity, but those substitutions were ridiculous.

 

[ajsccfc]

Every football match is eventually decided by the 22 men on the pitch. If Thorn can't be blamed, at what point is he culpable?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

First of all, he is not manager of a sales team trying to meet a target

Not of a sales team, but certainly a leader with targets.

and secondly that first half performance was not far from perfect today. HOW is Thorn meant to account for that second half performance, individual player errors, Wood stupidly and unnecessarily gifting them a penalty, and then Brown being horrendously out of position for the second. PLEASE tell me why the players are not accountable for this!?

If this was a new manager in charge of their first game, you could write it off. But this is Andy Thorn's Coventry City team, and we have seen this same guff for a year now. Show me the trajectory. Show me how we're improving. Show me how Thorn is becoming any better at the management game. Show me how he's refined the team to eliminate predictable mistakes.

You might wish for Thorn to stay, and that's fine. But it is a nonsense to suggest that a line manager should not be held responsible for his underperforming unit.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

Not of a sales team, but certainly a leader with targets.



If this was a new manager in charge of their first game, you could write it off. But this is Andy Thorn's Coventry City team, and we have seen this same guff for a year now. Show me the trajectory. Show me how we're improving. Show me how Thorn is becoming any better at the management game. Show me how he's refined the team to eliminate predictable mistakes.

You might wish for Thorn to stay, and that's fine. But it is a nonsense to suggest that a line manager should not be held responsible for his underperforming unit.

I've not suggested at any point I think Thorn is a great manager, or even an adequate manager, so please read my argument before responding. My point is that today I don't see what he could've done differently, and to not hold the players responsible today is ridiculous!

 

[ggrady]

We are not underperformance yet. We are unbeaten and if it wasn't for a bit of bad luck would have 9 points on the board. Thorn hasn't done much wrong we disagree with every managers subs give him to 10 games then panic sack but not yet

 

[ajsccfc]

Today wasn't bad luck. We completely panicked and forgot how to play football after their goal.

 

[The CableGuy]

I agree that it wasn't AT's fault that Wood gave away the penalty, but.....leaders are put in place to lead. And to take responsibility when shit happens. Not just at football clubs but at almost any organisation.

Shit's been happening for far too long now @ CCFC. Today was just ridiculous.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

Every football match is eventually decided by the 22 men on the pitch. If Thorn can't be blamed, at what point is he culpable?

He is culpable when he tells the team to sit back at 2-0 and see the game out, and then drawing the game 2-2. But this is not what happened, their goals came from our players individual errors, and I don't see how Thorn can account for Richard Wood stupidly barging someone over in the box, from what was a nothing situation.

 

[ajsccfc]

But what about the sheer panic that followed their first, where we seemed to be unable to retain possession? Shouldn't a manager be able to influence that?

 

[Sutty]

He is culpable when he tells the team to sit back at 2-0 and see the game out, and then drawing the game 2-2. But this is not what happened, their goals came from our players individual errors, and I don't see how Thorn can account for Richard Wood stupidly barging someone over in the box, from what was a nothing situation.

I am yet to see anyone blame him for this.

It wasn't Thorn's fault we threw away the 2-0 lead, but once it was 2-2 he didn't make the right changes.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I've not suggested at any point I think Thorn is a great manager, or even an adequate manager, so please read my argument before responding.

Nice try, but I did read your posts in full and didn't accuse you of any of those things. Please quote where I did. Perhaps you ought to follow your own advice about reading arguments before responding, eh?

My point is that today I don't see what he could've done differently, and to not hold the players responsible today is ridiculous!

So your point is that AT is tapped out and the players are underperforming. And your solution to the problem is - hold the players responsible? Exactly what does that achieve?

 

[Yorkshire SB]

Nice try, but I did read your posts in full and didn't accuse you of any of those things. Please quote where I did. Perhaps you ought to follow your own advice about reading arguments before responding, eh?



So your point is that AT is tapped out and the players are underperforming. And your solution to the problem is - hold the players responsible? Exactly what does that achieve?

You asked me to 'show you' how Thorn is improving us and other various things, which, perhaps not overtly, but does suggest that you thought I'd said Thorn was the man for the job..which I haven't said.

I'm not suggesting that he publicly hold the players responsible, the manager is there to take the brunt of the fans frustration (as is happening now) but believe me, he will be fuming with the side for the errors they made, and I'm sure he will express this to the players.

 

[Otis]

We have now lost 6 points from winning positions already this season.

Anyone else getting a sense of deja vu?

 

[Grendel]

Of course thorn was at fault. The opposing manager saw in the first half that our full backs were getting forward at ease. He blocked that off and we had little attacking intensity second half.

We got narrower and narrower as the game went on.

This was as bad as oh gets. A poor league 1 side totally outplayed in the first half makes some tactical and personell changes in the second and we were non plussed.

We played as poorly as we did against Sheffield in the second half. No communication no plan once they scored and nothing from thorn to respond.

A dire day all round.

 

[Otis]

That's what really grates with me.

Yep, AT may well have told the players exactly what was going to happen in the 2nd half and to be ready for it, but what he then failed to do was to make the tactical changes to counteract Bury's changes.

Bury made 3 quite quick substitutions in the 2nd half and there is no way on God's earth AT could have known that would happen at half-time. As soon the changes happened Bury were a different side with pace, passion and purpose and it was as if we had just given up as a team.

There was a failure by our management team to react to Bury's reaction.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

Of course thorn was at fault. The opposing manager saw in the first half that our full backs were getting forward at ease. He blocked that off and we had little attacking intensity second half.

We got narrower and narrower as the game went on.

This was as bad as oh gets. A poor league 1 side totally outplayed in the first half makes some tactical and personell changes in the second and we were non plussed.

We played as poorly as we did against Sheffield in the second half. No communication no plan once they scored and nothing from thorn to respond.

A dire day all round.

How can you say that, Hussey hit the post in the second from his forward run, and Brown was getting forward plenty in the second half, so I can't see how you drew that conclusion?

The players definitely relaxed second half, and there didn't seem to be the same urgency second half. However Thorn was in the technical area a lot throughout the game, and Richard Shaw was throughout the game, so there was definitely communication.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

I am yet to see anyone blame him for this.

It wasn't Thorn's fault we threw away the 2-0 lead, but once it was 2-2 he didn't make the right changes.

Well Thorn is being heavily criticised and blamed for the defeat..this was, without question, the turning point in the game. As for the substitutes, McSheffrey very nearly scored through some brilliant individual play, so hard to say he made the wrong changes. As for Ball, he wanted a target man as we were chasing the game, with not too long left

 

[Otis]

It was the tactics though just as much as the personnel.

It was the system that suddenly stopped working because of the way Bury nullified us. It wasn't just about changing players it was about changing systems.

 

[torchomatic]

Is that a different Carl Baker than the one who scored a fantastic freekick?

What was he at fault for? Writing the names 'Cody McDonald' and 'Carl Baker' on a bit of paper and handing it to the fourth official.

 

[Otis]

That's what he is saying, that Baker shouldn't have been taken off.

 

[ClarrieB]

do keep up Torchy old chap.

 

[Sutty]

Yeah that's what I meant, sorry, bit ambiguous.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

It was the tactics though just as much as the personnel.

It was the system that suddenly stopped working because of the way Bury nullified us. It wasn't just about changing players it was about changing systems.

I don't think Bury did nullify us though. They were certainly better second half, but I still think we controlled much of the game. I'm also not sure what system he could've changed to, possibly through his own fault, we have no pace and therefore can't play with much width. He brought Ball on, so we could try and be more direct when the scores were level. When I look at the bench from today, I'm just not sure how things could've been dramatically changed.

 

[torchomatic]

No, not you're fault, Sutty. Apologies, I didn't read your post correctly.

Yeah that's what I meant, sorry, bit ambiguous.