Is this whole thing a Haskell Mk2? (1 Viewer)

[Captain Dart]

Thats my point, in hindsight sisu had already out thought ACL. ACL seemed to think they could force a change.

The worry is what plans do they have now if wasps and others try to do the same? Ccfc won't be their priority.

Did anybody expect them to have done that at the time? This time people are putting the eggs in the wasps basket. The same as they were in the ACL one.

Nope, people are worrying about SISU folding the club.
I bet you they do no such thing and have a scheme that ensures they play somewhere next year.
We will all have to wait till this plays out as in my experience SISU never disclose their true intentions.

Just be patient.

 

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[Nick]

Nope, people are worrying about SISU folding the club.
I bet you they do no such thing and have a scheme that ensures they play somewhere next year.
We will all have to wait till this plays out as in my experience SISU never disclose their true intentions.

Just be patient.

Is everybody worrying about that? Seems obvious there have been discussions about a new club playing at the ricoh.

I doubt it is just sisu scheming. That's my point. There was plenty of scheming with ACL last time... People were already trying to sniff Haskell's arse like dogs.

 

[mark82]

Darlington had to change their name but after 3 years applied to the league and got their original name back

Was the same with Newport I believe. They were Newport AFC for a while but the re-adopted the Newport County name.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I know what was said by the CT... never a reliable source..... but the facts are the only entity that could control administration was sisu. So the bottom line is there might have been a desire to achieve it, there might have been plenty of empty talk.... but it wasn't going to happen unless sisu wanted it to ..... and having set things up to break the lease and distress ACL it just wasn't going to happen.

Waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces is hardly forcing a change. Makes good news print but what was the mechanism for ACL or haskwll to force that change? I think the parties miscalculated and failed to see they were never in control of what was going on

Btw just to be clear I actually think the sisu plan was very clever and very nearly worked.

They just didn't factor another entity swooping in. Think the mechanism was for ACL to call an admin charge on the unpaid rent, nominate their own administrator and get the club sold to Haskell. As I recall you found out the ARVO charge which was pre-emptively placed to upstage that before it could happen.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Thats my point, in hindsight sisu had already out thought ACL. ACL seemed to think they could force a change.

The worry is what plans do they have now if wasps and others try to do the same? Ccfc won't be their priority.

Did anybody expect them to have done that at the time? This time people are putting the eggs in the wasps basket. The same as they were in the ACL one.

CCFC still presumably serve some purpose as a loss leader in the wider portfolio, which must overall be doing OK as they are still managing to fund exorbitant legal expenses. I can't work out what the endgame is for them.

 

[chiefdave]

Newport County fans bought theirs paid around £8000 I believe, not sure who you buy it off though if liquidated I’d assume it would be the administrator.

The thought has occurred to me that in a worse case scenario of us having nowhere to play and losing our place in the league SISU don't have to liquidate the club. They could keep it in existence as a company that is essentially dormant while they see out the legal process.

The club, as far as we are concerned, is dead but legally speaking it would still exist so nobody could buy the assets and it would get tricky with the authorities declaring another club the successor.

 

[chiefdave]

But the point is it doesn't matter what ACL were saying or showing around. It doesn't matter what they thought or encouraged. The one party that mattered knew there was no possibility of it happening and had been working on their plan for well over a year.

Typical sisu don't look here look there. Acl, Haskell the trust ccc just made themselves look naiive

I think you're essentially agreeing with Nick just coming at it from a different angle. The point Nick is making is not about what did or didn't happen but what ACL, the Council and the Trust thought could happen.

Hence the huge panic they all went in to when it was revealed things like the golden share and player registrations weren't in the same company. That removed any chance of the authorities doing anything similar to when Portsmouth were sold to the trust when they refused to assign the share to anyone but the Trust. They had to give it to SISU to cover their own mistakes.

And similar appears to be happening now. Some people seem to think if Wasps hold firm and the club gets kicked out of the league the authorities will somehow take the share back and hand it over to someone else.

You could be posting in the future about the naivety of the Trust, Wasps and Council but this time the outcome would be even worse.

 

[mark82]

The thought has occurred to me that in a worse case scenario of us having nowhere to play and losing our place in the league SISU don't have to liquidate the club. They could keep it in existence as a company that is essentially dormant while they see out the legal process.

The club, as far as we are concerned, is dead but legally speaking it would still exist so nobody could buy the assets and it would get tricky with the authorities declaring another club the successor.

The biggest asset we have is the players, who would presumably all be free to find new clubs in that case. Other than that only real asset is Ryton. Either way whether they did that or liquidated it would be equally as painful. In your scenario I think a successor club could still be formed but it would be more messy. We just have to keep fingers crossed that it won't actually come to this.

 

[Captain Dart]

Is everybody worrying about that? Seems obvious there have been discussions about a new club playing at the ricoh.

I doubt it is just sisu scheming. That's my point. There was plenty of scheming with ACL last time... People were already trying to sniff Haskell's arse like dogs.

New club? That would be the phoenix club that isn't on the cards. There may well have been exploratory talks between a consortium interested in buying CCFC from SISU and subsequently playing on a long term basis at the Ricoh. These mean nothing unless they buy the club from SISU and SISU are not selling.

The question everyone should ask is why haven't SISU engaged in such talks, after all even Tim Fisher says the Ricoh is plan a and plan b. At least that was his position only a few months ago.

 

[Nick]

New club? That would be the phoenix club that isn't on the cards. There may well have been exploratory talks between a consortium interested in buying CCFC from SISU and subsequently playing on a long term basis at the Ricoh. These mean nothing unless they buy the club from SISU and SISU are not selling.

The question everyone should ask is why haven't SISU engaged in such talks, after all even Tim Fisher says the Ricoh is plan a and plan b. At least that was his position only a few months ago.

Engaged in what talks? Have Wasps now said they are open to talks then?

 

[oldskyblue58]

You could be posting in the future about the naivety of the Trust, Wasps and Council but this time the outcome would be even worse.

I could just as easily be posting about a hard nosed hedge fund who planned and took the losses on their football club investment to benefit their investors and everyone was powerless to stop them.

I think there are plans to all this , in that I agree with Nick. I tend to think one side has simply had enough and has drawn a line that will not give. I also have to think the football club owners have a plan, it would be so unlike them not to, but what that plan is that's not so clear.

The results this time around could be far worse. Then everyone can spend hours going round in circles about he said she said rather than what actually happened that mattered

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I also have to think the football club owners have a plan, it would be so unlike them not to, but what that plan is that's not so clear.

It would be stark raving incompetence not to have a plan.

Now... I know SISU have managed the stark raving incompetence from time to time but... even though the actions may have been unpalatable to us and haven't always come off, they've shown rather more competence in their strategy since Seppala started taking more of an interest.

 

[Captain Dart]

Engaged in what talks? Have Wasps now said they are open to talks then?

Laughable. You created a rumour. I said wouldn't be surprising if true. Then you use my musing as proof something happened.

 

[Nick]

Laughable. You created a rumour. I said wouldn't be surprising if true. Then you use my musing as proof something happened.

I didn't create a rumour, I made sure to put a disclaimer saying that.

You asked why SISU hadn't engaged in talks, I asked you which talks and if Wasps were now open to talks. To which you replied with something completely random.

 

[Captain Dart]

I didn't create a rumour, I made sure to put a disclaimer saying that.

You asked why SISU hadn't engaged in talks, I asked you which talks. To which you replied with something completely random.

You really need to learn how to express yourself. It was clear from my post I said SISU should talk and I did not think they had. The only talks I mentioned were 'possible' talks between a consortium interested in buying CCFC from SISU and Wasps/ACL, so that is what I replied about.

Ps you don't even understand what ramdom means.

 

[Nick]

You really need to learn how to express yourself. It was clear from my post I said SISU should talk and I did not think they had. The only talks I mentioned were 'possible' talks between a consortium interested in buying CCFC from SISU and Wasps/ACL, so that is what I replied about.

Ps you don't even understand what ramdom means.

OK, so you were going on with something completely unrelated again.

SISU haven't entered talks to sell the club because of the following possible choices:

1. They don't think there have been any credible bids
2. They don't want to sell it
3. They don't need to sell it

Fisher saying the Ricoh was plan A and B is irrelevant, do you really think that they are going to say "come and take the club off us because we aren't allowed to play there"?

ps. No, I don't know what ramdom means, I do know what random means though. Hence I used the word in a sentence.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

You really need to learn how to express yourself. It was clear from my post I said SISU should talk and I did not think they had. The only talks I mentioned were 'possible' talks between a consortium interested in buying CCFC from SISU and Wasps/ACL, so that is what I replied about.

Ps you don't even understand what ramdom means.

I had a chat with a contact last season who regularly conducts business in China/Asia and he approached TF offering to pitch CCFC to several prospects he believed might be interested. TF outright refused and told him SISU aren't interested in investors or buyers - unless they offer a ludicrous amount of course. SISU neither want or need to sell as Nick has stated so I highly doubt any possible talks occurred with a consortium.

 

[Captain Dart]

I had a chat with a contact last season who regularly conducts business in China/Asia and he approached TF offering to pitch CCFC to several prospects he believed might be interested. TF outright refused and told him SISU aren't interested in investors or buyers - unless they offer a ludicrous amount of course. SISU neither want or need to sell as Nick has stated so I highly doubt any possible talks occurred with a consortium.

I see that, they haven't got to the financial position they want, so they won't sell, yet. That is also why I don't think the club will be folded, SISU have a strategy to recoup their outlay but as OSB points out we won't understand what that is till it happens.

I was actually speculating on exploratory discussions between the Hoffman consortium and Wasps, even though there is no real prospect of a sale but Nick got the wrong end of the stick because I also said (in my opinion) SISU should be talking to Wasps about longer deals (from which it would be possible to infer that this didn't fit with their strategy so and that's why they wern't).

 

[Nick]

SISU should be talking to Wasps about longer deals

Which is why I asked if Wasps were now open to talks about an agreement.....

Wasps have spoken to Hoffman, there were pictures of it "leaked".

 

[Captain Dart]

OK, so you were going on with something completely unrelated again.

ps. No, I don't know what ramdom means, I do know what random means though. Hence I used the word in a sentence.

The point I raised was related to the discussion.

Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake and clarifying your lack of understanding.

Which is why I asked if Wasps were now open to talks about an agreement.....

Wasps have spoken to Hoffman, there were pictures of it "leaked".

Yes if the litigation is withdrawn. I think that's in the public domain.

 

[Nick]

The point I raised was related to the discussion.

Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake and clarifying your lack of understanding.



Yes if the litigation is withdrawn. I think that's in the public domain.

So what actual points are you trying to make? What has "SISU should be talking to Wasps about long term deals" got to do with anything? We also know that Wasps have spoken to consortiums.

You really need to learn how to express yourself.

Ironic isn't it?

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

I see that, they haven't got to the financial position they want, so they won't sell, yet. That is also why I don't think the club will be folded, SISU have a strategy to recoup their outlay but as OSB points out we won't understand what that is till it happens.

I was actually speculating on exploratory discussions between the Hoffman consortium and Wasps, even though there is no real prospect of a sale but Nick got the wrong end of the stick because I also said (in my opinion) SISU should be talking to Wasps about longer deals (from which it would be possible to infer that this didn't fit with their strategy so and that's why they wern't).

The issue is do they have a strategy though as so far their POA has been nothing short of sporadic and reckless. The worry is, is that their route to recoup their outlay is now through court proceedings. Why that's worrying is because in theory CCFC getting kicked out of the Ricoh and folding could actually work in their favour with regards to winning a court case. As Wasps, CCC and even the EFL have all in their own way restricted CCFC from potentially remaining in business. I'm not well versed in law by any means but you'd think a fairly strong case could be formed on the back of this. But back to recouping their outlay, it's not through investors obviously as realistically how on earth can they guarantee them am ROI when the can't promise their own investors an ROI. Similarly they're not wasting their own time looking for potential buyers as who in their right mind is going to purchase the club for SISU's asking price.

Well I've heard plenty of rumours on the grape vine regarding buyers purchasing Wasps with a view to eventually purchasing CCFC but that's mere rumour and speculation. There's no smoke without fire though so you could very well be right, a conversation potentially could've taken place with regards to this. But again that's pure speculation.

 

[Nick]

Why that's worrying is because in theory CCFC getting kicked out of the Ricoh and folding could actually work in their favour with regards to winning a court case.

That's the thing.

It looks as if ACL and everybody on their bandwagon played into their hands last time with the Administration as they were one step ahead. While ACL and others were acting like heros and showing people like Haskell round and making out there was a change of ownership through Administration and Haskell was the man. You then had the Trust, Elliott and Hoffman clambering to be his mate.

In this circumstance people like Wasps and the Council could quite easily be walking into a trap again by holding CCFC at ransom by not allowing them to play there. The antics about the Butts (see the other thread about the history lesson) would be enough to show that the Council weren't going to make any other move inside Coventry easy for them. SISU will more than likely have a file full of things like that to show that it was forced by the Council, Wasps and maybe the EFL. This is a company that owes them (Insert millions here that have accrued) and they can't run this. The council and Wasps are quite clearly trying to distress CCFC (not SISU) to get at SISU.

The thing with the EFL, I don't think they have come out and said themselves no move is allowed. That has been mostly Boddy

 

[Captain Dart]

The issue is do they have a strategy though as so far their POA so far has been nothing short of sporadic and reckless. The worry is, is that their route to recoup their outlay is now through court proceedings. Why that's worrying is because in theory CCFC getting kicked out of the Ricoh and folding could actually work in their favour with regards to winning a court case. As Wasps, CCC and even the EFL have all in their own way restricted CCFC from potentially remaining in business. I'm not well versed in law by any means but you'd think a fairly strong case could be formed on the back of this. But back to recouping their outlay, it's not through investors obviously as realistically how on earth can they guarantee them am ROI when the can't promise their own investors an ROI. Similarly they're not wasting their own time looking for potential buyers as who in their right mind is going to purchase the club for SISU's asking price.

Well I've heard plenty of rumours on the grape vine regarding buyers purchasing Wasps with a view to eventually purchasing CCFC but that's mere rumour and speculation. There's no smoke without fire though so you could very well be right, a conversation potentially could've taken place with regards to this. But again that's pure speculation.

Yeah, there are loads of possible paths, I've even seen it speculated SISU have lots of Wasps bonds so they can break them when the bonds mature and have to be repaid in 2022.

I have remarked previously that all that matters in this is the de facto commercial 'war' between Wasps and SISU, I think it is a 'fight to the death' (or more likely a surrender where one side buys out the other at a knock down price) and SISU's clandestine backers have a lot more money.

It would not surprise me in the least if a Coventry Sports and Events company owned by SISU eventually emerges from the rubble.

I am now a spectator/commentator I don't think the SBT, JimmyHillWay, Hoffman, CCC, local MP or any other external party is going to make the slightest bit of difference.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

That's the thing.

It looks as if ACL and everybody on their bandwagon played into their hands last time with the Administration as they were one step ahead. While ACL and others were acting like heros and showing people like Haskell round and making out there was a change of ownership through Administration and Haskell was the man. You then had the Trust, Elliott and Hoffman clambering to be his mate.

In this circumstance people like Wasps and the Council could quite easily be walking into a trap again by holding CCFC at ransom by not allowing them to play there. The antics about the Butts (see the other thread about the history lesson) would be enough to show that the Council weren't going to make any other move inside Coventry easy for them. SISU will more than likely have a file full of things like that to show that it was forced by the Council, Wasps and maybe the EFL. This is a company that owes them (Insert millions here that have accrued) and they can't run this. The council and Wasps are quite clearly trying to distress CCFC (not SISU) to get at SISU.

The thing with the EFL, I don't think they have come out and said themselves no move is allowed. That has been mostly Boddy

Couldn't agree more. But surely and I really do stress surely. If we can figure this out, surely Wasps' and CCC's respective legal teams will be relaying these facts to them. Like you said if you if both are effectively walking into a trap their legal teams will be warning that CCFC going out of business will not only be terrible for the image of Wasps and CCC but detrimental legal action could similarly follow.

Well that's true but I do think it is genuinely the case. If Boddy was in simple terms bullshitting, the EFL would've put a statement out by now, and even if they didn't it would be easy enough to find out whether they had explicitly said that or not...

 

[Nick]

Couldn't agree more. But surely and I really do stress surely. If we can figure this out, surely Wasps' and CCC's respective legal teams will be relaying these facts to them. Like you said if you if both are effectively walking into a trap their legal teams will be warning that CCFC going out of business will not only be terrible for the image of Wasps and CCC but detrimental legal action could similarly follow.

Well that's true but I do think it is genuinely the case. If Boddy was in simple terms bullshitting, the EFL would've put a statement out by now, and even if they didn't it would be easy enough to find out whether they had explicitly said that or not...

Then again you would have assumed that ACL's advisers wouldn't have let them walk into the "regime change" as it was dubbed without advising them of the possibility.

In terms of the EFL I can't see they would have much choice to allow a move or open themselves up to shit loads of legal action. Especially if there are 2 stadiums in Coventry, 1 they will have the documents and the council statements showing their reaction to the thought of CCFC at the Butts and the other is the stuff at the Ricoh. The EFL can't demand that legal option that SISU are legally entitled to (as silly as the law is) be dropped.

The mistake people keep making is assuming that SISU give a shit about CCFC. The mistake which then keeps being made is people trying to distress or get at CCFC thinking it's getting to SISU. Wasps are only distressing CCFC by not allowing a deal, the Council are only distressing CCFC by actively working against the thought of any other options. They are backing CCFC into a corner, not SISU.

People go on social media all day every day saying SISU don't care, they only care about their investors. Why would they suddenly care about CCFC if they got kicked out rather than add it to the list of legal options?

 

[chiefdave]

SISU will more than likely have a file full of things like that to show that it was forced by the Council, Wasps and maybe the EFL.

I remember one of the lawyers at work, when we were last in court, having a theory that SISU know they won't win these cases but its all about getting information & documents for something down the line.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

Yeah, there are loads of possible paths, I've even seen it speculated SISU have lots of Wasps bonds so they can break them when the bonds mature and have to be repaid in 2022.

I have remarked previously that all that matters in this is the de facto commercial 'war' between Wasps and SISU, I think it is a 'fight to the death' (or more likely a surrender where one side buys out the other at a knock down price) and SISU's clandestine backers have a lot more money.

It would not surprise me in the least if a Coventry Sports and Events company owned by SISU eventually emerges from the rubble.

I am now a spectator/commentator I don't think the SBT, JimmyHillWay, Hoffman, CCC, local MP or any other external party is going to make the slightest bit of difference.

I agree I wouldn't surprise me if SISU came out as victors in this whole shitstorm, regardless of the fate of CCFC and whatever subsidiary will arise from this endless siege. SISU are relentless and I strongly suspect there will be a point where Wasps will just have to settle.

 

[ceetee]

Couldn't agree more. But surely and I really do stress surely. If we can figure this out, surely Wasps' and CCC's respective legal teams will be relaying these facts to them. Like you said if you if both are effectively walking into a trap their legal teams will be warning that CCFC going out of business will not only be terrible for the image of Wasps and CCC but detrimental legal action could similarly follow.

Well that's true but I do think it is genuinely the case. If Boddy was in simple terms bullshitting, the EFL would've put a statement out by now, and even if they didn't it would be easy enough to find out whether they had explicitly said that or not...

But I don't think that would be terrible for the image of Wasps.
People will say that it's SISU's fault because of the way they have conducted themselves and it serves them right.
Hooray, we've got one over on SISU

CCFC, and the genuine fans, are just collateral damage.

 

[Liquid Gold]

I remember one of the lawyers at work, when we were last in court, having a theory that SISU know they won't win these cases but its all about getting information & documents for something down the line.

What could they possibly have planned? We're owned by Bond villains.

 

[Nick]

But I don't think that would be terrible for the image of Wasps.
People will say that it's SISU's fault because of the way they have conducted themselves and it serves them right.
Hooray, we've got one over on SISU

CCFC, and the genuine fans, are just collateral damage.

It depends if people see straight through the PR nonsense or not.

Keep saying, the silence against Wasps and the Council from fans spokespeople is deafening.

 

[ceetee]

It depends if people see straight through the PR nonsense or not.

Keep saying, the silence against Wasps and the Council from fans spokespeople is deafening.

Well not many have so far.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But I don't think that would be terrible for the image of Wasps.
People will say that it's SISU's fault because of the way they have conducted themselves and it serves them right.
Hooray, we've got one over on SISU

CCFC, and the genuine fans, are just collateral damage.

Let’s be honest most people in Cov don’t give a monkey’s about the club and are won over by freebies and fireworks. That or any chance for a selfie. There are too few of us who care enough to get something meaningful done.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

Then again you would have assumed that ACL's advisers wouldn't have let them walk into the "regime change" as it was dubbed without advising them of the possibility.

In terms of the EFL I can't see they would have much choice to allow a move or open themselves up to shit loads of legal action. Especially if there are 2 stadiums in Coventry, 1 they will have the documents and the council statements showing their reaction to the thought of CCFC at the Butts and the other is the stuff at the Ricoh. The EFL can't demand that legal option that SISU are legally entitled to (as silly as the law is) be dropped.

The mistake people keep making is assuming that SISU give a shit about CCFC. The mistake which then keeps being made is people trying to distress or get at CCFC thinking it's getting to SISU. Wasps are only distressing CCFC by not allowing a deal, the Council are only distressing CCFC by actively working against the thought of any other options. They are backing CCFC into a corner, not SISU.

People go on social media all day every day saying SISU don't care, they only care about their investors. Why would they suddenly care about CCFC if they got kicked out rather than add it to the list of legal options?

Solid point.

The issue is though Nick, what if this happens again to another club. If the EFL allow a move after DB has claimed they've explicitly denied that request, doesn't that set a precedent whilst similarly making them look completely ineffectual? Perhaps this is why they've never directly put a statement out regarding their refusal to allow us back into the EFL if we were to move outside the city. Unfortunately they can't do anything but realistically in hindsight there should be a by-law in place that states if an owner puts their club at risk of liquidation the EFL can intervene, as FFP/fit and proper owner test has realistically done little to halt poor ownership plighting football.

I think that's why CCFC over recent years has tried to subtly distance themselves from SISU, in an attempt to show external parties that they're not two of the same. But again surely that makes them vulnerable to legal action if CCFC were to fold? If CCC have worked with other parties, E.g. CRC to block CCFC's hunt for a new home, doesn't that put them at serious risk of being liable for damages against CCFC.

Exactly, in actual fact CCFC is simply another portfolio in a long line of SISU's portfolios. They don't care whether we live or die, they care about getting an ROI. I don't expect fans to understand the technicalities associated with this absolute shitstorm because they shouldn't have to. But they do need to wise up to the fact the club folding/staying in business can in reality work both ways for SISU from a financial and legal standpoint.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

But I don't think that would be terrible for the image of Wasps.
People will say that it's SISU's fault because of the way they have conducted themselves and it serves them right.
Hooray, we've got one over on SISU

CCFC, and the genuine fans, are just collateral damage.

From having worked in PR for a number of years and knowing how the press work I can assure you it would be. How much it would directly effect them is something I can't predict however, and is something I can only speculate upon. What I can predict though are the headlines/stories/clickbait that would follow from the news of CCFC departing the Ricoh/folding.