Jeremy corbyn (2 Viewers)

[dutchman]

So if we want to know what public opinion is now on the Brexit issue the only way to know for sure is via a referendum on that single topic.

It wouldn't be a genuine referendum because the current parliament has no intention of leaving the EU whatever the result is as they have already demonstrated.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

You're assuming people will vote the same way in a general election as they would in a referendum, I'm not.

Are you saying they would consider the full manifesto and that Brexit would not be the dominant factor?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

We need to reduce the voting age down to 12 and then run a second referendum. That'll restore "democracy".

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So some problems here:

How will parliament agree on the questions for approval - remember this has to be approved by an independent body


Given the minimum time for a referendum is regarded as 6 months why is the extension only 3 and what happens if as macron indicates a further extension is blocked

If it is not blocked you are saying this administration has to survive for 6 months. Corbyn was not able to command support for an interim government for 2 weeks so no party will offer him 6 months

An election triggered before the referendum and the Tory party will run on a policy of scrapping it

Not happening is it?

I am saying this in the hypothetical case that the Tories identify a second vote as a logical tie breaker. The wording of the question can be a literal description of the choice. Is it a legal requirement for a referendum to be held 6 months after it’s called? If all parties agree on its necessity I’m certain it can be fast tracked.

All of this of course is still attempting to pay respect to both sides when we know from any analysis of the subject that Brexit and particularly the no deal variety will make the country worse off.

 

[dutchman]

Are you saying they would consider the full manifesto and that Brexit would not be the dominant factor?

I'm saying it would be a total irrelevance to most people as witnessed by the low turnout in the recent EU election.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

I am saying this in the hypothetical case that the Tories identify a second vote as a logical tie breaker. The wording of the question can be a literal description of the choice. Is it a legal requirement for a referendum to be held 6 months after it’s called? If all parties agree on its necessity I’m certain it can be fast tracked.

All of this of course is still attempting to pay respect to both sides when we know from any analysis of the subject that Brexit and particularly the no deal variety will make the country worse off.

"Attempting to pay respect to both sides" my arse.

We've had three years of a Remain-dominated parliament. Now you want that same 76/24 parliament to produce a 'final' referendum question no doubt skewed in the favour of remain to finally overturn the original result. Classic Lib Undemocracy.

Of course, the reason you’re scared of a General Election is that it would rightly give the Electorate the opportunity to express whether it would like to elect a new parliament with a more accurate representation of the Brexit split to then implement the referendum result.

That's what should happen and it will.

 

[Flying Fokker]

"Attempting to pay respect to both sides" my arse.

We've had three years of a Remain-dominated parliament. Now you want that same 76/24 parliament to produce a 'final' referendum question no doubt skewed in the favour of remain to finally overturn the original result. Classic Lib Undemocracy.

Of course, the reason you’re scared of a General Election is that it would rightly give the Electorate the opportunity to express whether it would like to elect a new parliament with a more accurate representation of the Brexit split to then implement the referendum result.

That's what should happen and it will.

Please let this happen. I need to untie this knot in my stomach...the people voted three years ago and just need a parliament with backbone. I voted on one issue only...sovereignty. Not immigration or anything else. I didn’t vote to leave because I wanted to stay in Europe. I value European cultures and am happy yo meet on their terms when abroad but we need to establish ourselves as a self-governing country willing to open trade up to all comers.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Are you saying they would consider the full manifesto and that Brexit would not be the dominant factor?

We need to reduce the voting age down to 12 and then run a second referendum. That'll restore "democracy".

18 to death is fine thanks.

 

[Mcbean]

Corbyn is in pain today after extracting Bercow from his arse

 

[fernandopartridge]

Please let this happen. I need to untie this knot in my stomach...the people voted three years ago and just need a parliament with backbone. I voted on one issue only...sovereignty. Not immigration or anything else. I didn’t vote to leave because I wanted to stay in Europe. I value European cultures and am happy yo meet on their terms when abroad but we need to establish ourselves as a self-governing country willing to open trade up to all comers.

Understand all that but you don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater in a no deal brexit, we have made zero provision for how we continue to trade with our biggest export market which is the EU. It is pathetic.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I voted on one issue only...sovereignty.

You'll be delighted that parliament's taking back control, then.

 

[shmmeee]

"Attempting to pay respect to both sides" my arse.

We've had three years of a Remain-dominated parliament. Now you want that same 76/24 parliament to produce a 'final' referendum question no doubt skewed in the favour of remain to finally overturn the original result. Classic Lib Undemocracy.

Of course, the reason you’re scared of a General Election is that it would rightly give the Electorate the opportunity to express whether it would like to elect a new parliament with a more accurate representation of the Brexit split to then implement the referendum result.

That's what should happen and it will.

Parliament was elected in 2017.

Did you lot miss it or something?

We have a democratically elected parliament, elected since the referendum.

Cry more if it doesn’t agree with your personal views, that democracy. I haven’t agreed with the government of the day for decades.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It wouldn't be a genuine referendum because the current parliament has no intention of leaving the EU whatever the result is as they have already demonstrated.

Why would parliament's intention not make it a genuine referendum? We've had one GE since the Brexit vote and where are we? So why would another one be any different? Most of those in the house now would still be in the house after. Plus if Brexit Ltd won seats that would just prove my point that the election for many would revolve heavily upon one point - Brexit. Even if parliament carried on the shitshow after a second referendum it would give a definitive answer as to the question on public perception of the issue.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

18 to death is fine thanks.

Why? Because there's empirical evidence to show this is the best age to start? Or just because that's how it's been for ages. Apparently people who can legally have children aren't mature or responsible enough to put an X in a box on a piece of paper :emoji_thinking:

 

[Grendel]

Why would parliament's intention not make it a genuine referendum? We've had one GE since the Brexit vote and where are we? So why would another one be any different? Most of those in the house now would still be in the house after. Plus if Brexit Ltd won seats that would just prove my point that the election for many would revolve heavily upon one point - Brexit. Even if parliament carried on the shitshow after a second referendum it would give a definitive answer as to the question on public perception of the issue.

Ok I’ll entertain this fantasy for 5 minutes

What would the question be?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Please let this happen. I need to untie this knot in my stomach...the people voted three years ago and just need a parliament with backbone. I voted on one issue only...sovereignty. Not immigration or anything else. I didn’t vote to leave because I wanted to stay in Europe. I value European cultures and am happy yo meet on their terms when abroad but we need to establish ourselves as a self-governing country willing to open trade up to all comers.

So I assume you're delighted that parliament showed a backbone and prevented Alexander from running roughshod over the laws of the country by completing ignoring the parliament?

As for sovereignty wait until we bend over backwards for the US in a trade deal. Difference with the EU is at least they have a small modicum of respect for the UK.

 

[Grendel]

So I assume you're delighted that parliament showed a backbone and prevented Alexander from running roughshod over the laws of the country by completing ignoring the parliament?

As for sovereignty wait until we bend over backwards for the US in a trade deal. Difference with the EU is at least they have a small modicum of respect for the UK.

Don’t make me laugh. The only reason Corbyn is delaying an election is the polls are hugely against him and they hope by prolonging this they can recover ground

Even the unions want an election now. Otherwise get a no confidence vote in Johnson as per the rules and bring him down rather than hide behind him

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

"Attempting to pay respect to both sides" my arse.

We've had three years of a Remain-dominated parliament. Now you want that same 76/24 parliament to produce a 'final' referendum question no doubt skewed in the favour of remain to finally overturn the original result. Classic Lib Undemocracy.

Of course, the reason you’re scared of a General Election is that it would rightly give the Electorate the opportunity to express whether it would like to elect a new parliament with a more accurate representation of the Brexit split to then implement the referendum result.

That's what should happen and it will.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

1. Parliament doesn't write referenda questions. Pretty consistently I've been saying some variant of 'Leave with no agreement versus revoke Article 50'. If that's a loaded question then really you're conceding that No Deal is shite

2. It isn't 'undemocratic' if public opinion has shifted in light of the economic realities that No Deal brings to the table.

3. Referendum by proxy compared to an outright second vote doesn't provide the 'final resolution' and nor does it tie anyone in Parliament towards executing one.

 

[dutchman]

Why would parliament's intention not make it a genuine referendum?

Since they have no intention of honouring any result with which they disagree it is absolutely pointless holding one.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Ok I’ll entertain this fantasy for 5 minutes

What would the question be?

Remain v No Deal. In or out. Same as last time just with a definitive answer as to what leave means.

After that we negotiate new deals, or set about trying to bring about reform from within, depending on the answer.

I don't understand why there are people saying a GE, which should be based on numerous issues both foreign and domestic, would be a better indicator of how to move forward on Brexit than something specifically asking the Brexit question? Only answer I've come up with is that there is fear the answer would now be remain in a referendum, but a GE would likely favour the party most in favour of Brexit.

 

[Grendel]

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

1. Parliament doesn't write referenda questions. Pretty consistently I've been saying some variant of 'Leave with no agreement versus revoke Article 50'. If that's a loaded question then really you're conceding that No Deal is shite

2. It isn't 'undemocratic' if public opinion has shifted in light of the economic realities that No Deal brings to the table.

3. Referendum by proxy compared to an outright second vote doesn't provide the 'final resolution' and nor does it tie anyone in Parliament towards executing one.

It wouldn’t get through Parliament so try again

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Since they have no intention of honouring any result with which they disagree it is absolutely pointless to hold one.

So why bother with elections? Half the time the parties don't follow through on campaign or manifesto promises.

You want an answer as to the public perception of Brexit - ask them directly.

 

[Grendel]

Remain v No Deal. In or out. Same as last time just with a definitive answer as to what leave means.

After that we negotiate new deals, or set about trying to bring about reform from within, depending on the answer.

I don't understand why there are people saying a GE, which should be based on numerous issues both foreign and domestic, would be a better indicator of how to move forward on Brexit than something specifically asking the Brexit question? Only answer I've come up with is that there is fear the answer would now be remain in a referendum, but a GE would likely favour the party most in favour of Brexit.

So what happens when the WA is presented to Parliament again - is that not allowed

Also what happens if no deal scrapes through - the Lib Dem’s have already said it would be advisory and they’d ignore it

Labour have already said they’d what a deal or remain option and no deal

So that’s not happening what next?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Don’t make me laugh. The only reason Corbyn is delaying an election is the polls are hugely against him and they hope by prolonging this they can recover ground

Even the unions want an election now. Otherwise get a no confidence vote in Johnson as per the rules and bring him down rather than hide behind him

Hard to do now since Porky has suspended Parliament for as long as he can get away with. Also funny that Javid tried his best not to concede on air that they are looking at ways to circumvent the law to ram home no deal. Of course Labour will be down in the polls as long as Brexit dominates the headlines. You have two of the best charlatans in the business on the right and the Remain vote is split along with Labour's voter base.

 

[dutchman]

Remain v No Deal. In or out. Same as last time just with a definitive answer as to what leave means.

After that we negotiate new deals, or set about trying to bring about reform from within, depending on the answer.

How did that work out last time for David Cameron?

 

[dutchman]

So why bother with elections? Half the time the parties don't follow through on campaign or manifesto promises.

You want an answer as to the public perception of Brexit - ask them directly.

Why not ask them about immigration and the death penalty too, or are you not so keen on them?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It wouldn’t get through Parliament so try again

Again I'm talking in a parallel universe where the Tories or enough of them agree it as a way to break the deadlock. Porky has already booted a few dozen out of the party for not backing national self harm sufficiently, maybe more will follow

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why not ask them about immigration and the death penalty too, or are you not so keen on them?

And what if public opinion has changed in light of the reams of new evidence?

 

[dutchman]

And what if public opinion has changed in light of the reams of new evidence?

On immigration and the death penalty? There's a simple way to find out!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

On immigration and the death penalty? There's a simple way to find out!

On immigration public perception is miles away from reality. Capital punishment in the States gets an innocent person approximately 3% of the time and more to the point it's an ineffective deterrent against homicide.

This deflection is fun but can't we go back to the main focus?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Why not ask them about immigration and the death penalty too, or are you not so keen on them?

As long as both sides are allowed to call out the bullshit the other spouts then fine. All claims have to be backed up by independent verified data. Finally might be able to dispel a load of the nonsense the likes of the Mail and Express print on the issue of immigration especially.

Nice attempt at deflection btw

 

[dutchman]

On immigration public perception is miles away from reality.

I could say the same about Brexit!

Capital punishment in the States gets an innocent person approximately 3% of the time and more to the point it's an ineffective deterrent against homicide.

That may well be the case but it is irrelevant as to whether there should be a referndum on the question or not.

This deflection is fun but can't we go back to the main focus?

Which was Jeremy Corbyn, until you turned it into another EU referendum thread!

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Parliament was elected in 2017.

Did you lot miss it or something?

We have a democratically elected parliament, elected since the referendum.

Did you miss the fact that Labour moved from a position of honouring the result in 2017 to a remain party? This is a remain dominated parliament and the balance will be corrected at a GE which is why you fear it.

 

[dutchman]

This is a remain dominated parliament and the balance will be corrected at a GE

Personally, I wouldn't bet on that.

 

[shmmeee]

Why? Because there's empirical evidence to show this is the best age to start? Or just because that's how it's been for ages. Apparently people who can legally have children aren't mature or responsible enough to put an X in a box on a piece of paper :emoji_thinking:

TBF the answer here is to restrict parenthood not expand the right to vote

Personally I’m against votes at 16, but I spent ten years working with 16 year olds every day. I’d even push it up to 21, there’s a biological argument for 25 as that’s when empathy and reasoning skills are fully formed.