Joe Elliot: Even He Likes Wasps (5 Viewers)

[Nick]

This time? Aw, bless. You think moving out of Coventry last time was to ensure survival of the club, awww. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it wasn't. In fact it was nothing to do with CCFC at all, CCFC was merely a pawn being used by it's queen.I guess if we ever have to move out of the Ricoh to secure the survival of the club the trust under the guidance of it's members (that's how it works you know) would back that move.I think the quote was something along the lines of the club has to stand on its own two feet without the financial backing of it's owners. That was clearly never going to happen at Sixfields despite TF's predictions so yes the club had to return to the Ricoh thanks to the ones that boycotted Sixfields. I don't buy the"we only come back because Wasps were buying" theory. Based on what? It stopped the takeover? What has it achieved other than apparently making CCFC cash flow positive?

Do you want to go back and read my post properly? Especially this bit:

if we ever do move out of Coventry to ensure survival the club

Now do you want to reply based on what I actually said?

You think the club didn't realise they were losing money until a couple of games into the next season and rushed back?

Seems like you just believe whatever suits at that time. Including things that aren't even there.

Patronising is best when actually doing it on something said rather than totally misreading.

 

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[skybluetony176]

Do you want to go back and read my post properly? Especially this bit:

if we ever do move out of Coventry to ensure survival the club

Now do you want to reply based on what I actually said?

You think the club didn't realise they were losing money until a couple of games into the next season and rushed back?

Seems like you just believe whatever suits at that time. Including things that aren't even there.

I based my reply on your full quote. Not the snippet you've quoted in this reply in a very poor effort to make it look like I'm quoting you out of context. You do know that the full unedited version of what you actually said is still on the previous page?

 

[Nick]

I based my reply on your full quote. Not the snippet you've quoted in this reply in a very poor effort to make it look like I'm quoting you out of context. You do know that the full unedited version of what you actually said is still on the previous page?

I haven't edited anything so it will be?

I quoted my only mention of us to survive which clearly says if we moved to survive. See the if??

My point was quite clearly if we moved now to survive then the people who were against us moving to sixfields but now back wasps will surely be behind it.

 

[SBT]

I can’t work out if people genuinely don’t get it or are just playing dumb, it seems very simple to me. Lets compare the two situations.

CCFC moved 35 miles to Northampton. It was a temporary move, said to be for a maximum of 5 years, as the clubs owners claimed they had no other option. Fans were assured the club would return to ‘the Coventry area’.

Wasps moved 28 miles to Wycombe. It was a temporary move, don’t believe any time scale was given. The clubs owners claimed they had no other option. Fans were assured the club would return to its ‘natural home’.

To me those two situations are very similar. Fans of either club could chose to continue attending, either because they agreed with what they were being told or because they just wanted to support the team. Equally fans could stay away as they did not agree with the temporary move.

I don’t recall much protest from Wasps fans, although if there was I may well have missed it. I do remember many CCFC fans arguing against going to Northampton, something that was reflected in the attendances. 8K+ CCFC fans protested by marching through the streets of Coventry on two occasions against the club playing away from it’s home city. The CT led a campaign against the club playing outside its home city. The local council repeatedly spoke out saying what a disgrace it was for the club to be away from its home city.

Wasps then moved 100 miles from their ‘natural home’ to Coventry. We know this was not their only option, we know there were other options on the table that would allow them to move back to London. Wasps themselves have admitted that the reason for choosing the move to Coventry over other options is purely financial.

The equivalent of this would be CCFC having played the full 5 years at Northampton and then moving to Manchester while there were alternative offers for them to move back to Coventry.

There are now people who would not attend games at Northampton as they did not agree with the move who will happily attend Wasps games at the Ricoh. There are people who marched against us playing in Northampton who will happily attend Wasps games at the Ricoh. The CT are happily supporting Wasps move to the city. The local council are the ones who facilitated Wasps move to the city.

Can people really not see the issue and the difference between the two situations? If SISU move us to Manchester as they can make more money that way will everyone happily accept it?

Moving a sports team is always going to be a controversial issue - unfortunately financial realities mean that it's sometimes inevitable. In an ideal world, the fans would be the only consideration - in our case, we were clearly opposed to moving out of the city, and it should have been taken into account. With Wasps, the fans' opposition is much less obvious (if it was even there in the first place). I already don't care about rugby, let alone Wasps - if their fans aren't going to raise any objections, then I'm not going to be outraged on their behalf. Maybe I'm being cruel, but unless someone persuades me otherwise, a rugby team isn't anything more than just another business to me.

 

[skybluetony176]

I haven't edited anything so it will be?

I quoted my only mention of us to survive which clearly says if we moved to survive. See the if??

My point was quite clearly if we moved now to survive then the people who were against us moving to sixfields but now back wasps will surely be behind it.

You also said next time. For their to be a next time there had to be a last time. Perhaps you just don't understand what you have written. In which case I apologise for saying you though last time was to ensure the clubs survival. When clearly it wasn't.

 

[Nick]

You also said next time. For their to be a next time there had to be a last time. Perhaps you just don't understand what you have written. In which case I apologise for saying you though last time was to ensure the clubs survival. When clearly it wasn't.

Yes, we have moved out of the city before. So it would be another time wouldn't it?

I think you are reading something that's not there.

Things would have changed since last time, which is why it was last time and this time (if it happened). Hence, if we did move to survive. Note the if....

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Those that went to Northampton went to watch a team from Coventry that should have been in Coventry. The vast majority had supported them for many years. Like I said at the time I didn't agree with going but it was more in a protest against SISU and nothing against our club or supporters.

Those going to Watch Wasps in Coventry most probably couldn't even name one player before they were taken away from their own supporters and moved from Coventry. They were very pissed off about their own club being moved 34 miles. Most couldn't or wouldn't go to Northampton. They knew how it felt. But they seem to think it is OK to support Wasps and their owner in what they are doing, including taking over what should be ours.....the Ricoh. That to me is irony 100%.

Good Lord, QFT.

Anyway, I suspect LAST was just having a poke with a big stick, the big flouncer that he is

 

[Nick]

Good Lord, QFT.

Anyway, I suspect LAST was just having a poke with a big stick, the big flouncer that he is

Is that why he was going to Brighton

 

[cloughie]

Why should anyone boycott going to a wasps game.

yet some seem to think its wasps fault, I am truly amazed that some blame wasps and yet think sisu /CCFC have been given a bad deal

Fooking amazed !!

Sisu had many years to be sensible and do what wasps have done but fisher was to thick, try taking your hate of wasps towards that twat.

And before you start I have not been to a wasps game or have any interest in rugby

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Sisu had many years to be sensible and do what wasps have done

Move miles away from their home?

 

[Nick]

Why should anyone boycott going to a wasps game.

yet some seem to think its wasps fault, I am truly amazed that some blame wasps and yet think sisu /CCFC have been given a bad deal

Fooking amazed !!

Sisu had many years to be sensible and do what wasps have done but fisher was to thick, try taking your hate of wasps towards that twat.

And before you start I have not been to a wasps game or have any interest in rugby

Not entirely sure you have read the thread properly.

 

[cloughie]

Move miles away from their home?

No come in with a sensible offer and engage with the there target audience

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Why should anyone boycott going to a wasps game.

yet some seem to think its wasps fault, I am truly amazed that some blame wasps and yet think sisu /CCFC have been given a bad deal

Fooking amazed !!

Sisu had many years to be sensible and do what wasps have done but fisher was to thick, try taking your hate of wasps towards that twat.

And before you start I have not been to a wasps game or have any interest in rugby

I don't think people can blame Wasps for what has happened in the past few years and they are certainly not to blame for the clubs failure to secure the Ricoh. It's more an acknowledgement that them being here is negative for the football club.

As for why people should boycott, I can only speak for myself but I won't support something that I believe is negative for the football club.

 

[Hobo]

Didn't Wasps move to take advantage of said Dispute?

If I pull a knife on somebody to take their wallet and fail to get the wallet does it make it ok for somebody to come and take the wallet after I have gone / given up?

My point is against those who abused / had digs at people who went to Sixfields.

what are you talking about? They made an offer for the wallet and it was accepted....they didn't steal it.

 

[Nick]

what are you talking about? They made an offer for the wallet and it was accepted....they didn't steal it.

So sisu weren't doing anything wrong trying to distress them?

 

[Hobo]

No it wasn't, nothing was ever confirmed. It would have been if they had bought land and started building a stadium in Hinckley. They didn't did they?

It was a temporary move and nothing else was set in stone and confirmed.

Unless Tim Fisher does tell the truth after all?

a temporary move on the never never, as good as a permanent move,

the he big difference is, most of our fans did not support it. Where as Wasps owners have sold their move to there fans who have accepted it because they have been homeless, in their eyes for sometime.

Our owners have managed to sell nothing to our fans.

 

[Hobo]

So sisu weren't doing anything wrong trying to distress them?

Where have I said the bit with the knife part was okay in your stupid scenario?

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

a temporary move on the never never, as good as a permanent move,

the he big difference is, most of our fans did not support it. Where as Wasps owners have sold their move to there fans who have accepted it because they have been homeless, in their eyes for sometime.

Our owners have managed to sell nothing to our fans.

I think the fact they hadn't been in London for over 10 years made it more, I wouldn't say acceptable but went by without protest from the perspective of there long term fans. The fans who probably would have been against the move probably gave up many years go.

If we had stayed in Northampton for 10 years and then announce we are moving to London, I doubt there would be barely anyone left to care/protest against the move.

 

[Nick]

Where have I said the bit with the knife part was okay in your stupid scenario?

My example was sisu being dodgy to get it cheap and failing, but wasps coming in and getting it cheap.

I know it wasn't illegal.

The same as how the club were trying to rip of poor children etc but when wasps actually do it it's ok.

I'm not saying you have personally said it, it just seems to be the pattern.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

So sisu weren't doing anything wrong trying to distress them?

Perhaps it would have been better if in your analogy the mugger stabbed the person after failing to steal there wallet and then the next person who comes along offers them medical care in exchange for the wallet.

 

[skybluetony176]

My example was sisu being dodgy to get it cheap and failing, but wasps coming in and getting it cheap.

I know it wasn't illegal.

The same as how the club were trying to rip of poor children etc it but when wasps actually do it it's ok.

I'm not saying you have personally said it, it just seems to be the pattern.

So this knife? Were Wasps holding it to Higgs and CCC when they made offers to both parties? Because wouldn't they have to be doing that to "actually" do what SISU did. Wouldn't they?

 

[Hobo]

My example was sisu being dodgy to get it cheap and failing, but wasps coming in and getting it cheap.

I know it wasn't illegal.

The same as how the club were trying to rip of poor children etc but when wasps actually do it it's ok.

I'm not saying you have personally said it, it just seems to be the pattern.

SISU's business plan was flawed. They tried to drive the price down too much, pissed everybody off and misread the market. Their tactics also fucked up the customer base they had.

they have done some good things but always seem to get the key areas wrong.

I atticipate more actions that haven't been thought through properly after tomorrow.

 

[Nick]

So this knife? Were Wasps holding it to Higgs and CCC when they made offers to both parties? Because wouldn't they have to be doing that to "actually" do what SISU did. Wouldn't they?

Are you struggling to read today? I've never said it is the same.

It was bad that sisu were trying to distress to get acl for cheap, wasps came in and actually got it for cheap.

Sisu were bad for trying to rip off a children's charity by giving them less than they paid, wasps actually give them less but that's ok.

Sisu were apparently just trying to get the stadium to get money against it, wasps do it and it's great.

 

[skybluetony176]

Are you struggling to read today? I've never said it is the same.

It was bad that sisu were trying to distress to get acl for cheap, wasps came in and actually got it for cheap.

Sisu were bad for trying to rip off a children's charity by giving them less than they paid, wasps actually give them less but that's ok.

Sisu were apparently just trying to get the stadium to get money against it, wasps do it and it's great.

So when Wasps actually did what SISU were trying to do was Wasps holding the knife or was it still in SISU's hands?

 

[Nick]

So when Wasps actually did what SISU were trying to do was Wasps holding the knife or was it still in SISU's hands?

Maybe it had been discarded, hence I didn't say wasps picked it up and used it. Hence I didn't say they tried to stab them.

Just that they took advantage of sisu and the knife to get the wallet.

I'm not saying I blame them, a good business deal is a good business deal. The way some went on about higgs being ripped off and it being disgusted but then went quiet when they did actually get less than they paid is an example.

 

[skybluetony176]

Maybe it had been discarded, hence I didn't say wasps picked it up and used it. Hence I didn't say they tried to stab them.

Just that they took advantage of sisu and the knife to get the wallet.

I'm not saying I blame them, a good business deal is a good business deal. The way some went on about higgs being ripped off and it being disgusted but then went quiet when they did actually get less than they paid is an example.

But you said and I quote "The same as how the club were trying to rip of poor children etc but when wasps actually do it it's ok."

So if Wasps "actually" did what the club were trying to do then surely they'd have to be holding the "actual" knife? Wouldn't they?

 

[Calista]

I can’t work out if people genuinely don’t get it or are just playing dumb, it seems very simple to me.

Everybody gets the “sports teams shouldn’t move” argument, and nobody is playing dumb. But if you think this case is simple, I beg to disagree.

Going back to London (assuming it was possible) wasn’t a popular idea for lots of Wasps followers, because after 13 years the London contingent were very much in the minority. The club actually tried to build a shiny new stadium in Wycombe – I wonder if that would have been OK with you, or whether it would it have made them the new MK Dons? Anyway, they had the planning application turned down.

Leaving all that aside, if the Wasps fans had staged meaningful resistance, I’d have been just as against their move as you are. But the Guardian report for their last game in Wycombe was called “WASPS SUPPORTERS ACCEPT MOVE TO COVENTRY WITHOUT ADAMS PARK PROTEST”. It said “There also seemed to be a collective acceptance there are no financially viable alternatives to Wasps’ impending switch to the Ricoh Arena”.

The contrast with our fans’ outrage about Sixfields could hardly be greater. So why are we continuing to fight this pointless battle for people who don’t even want us to?

CCFC have dug a huge hole and jumped right into it, and we have to climb out. Two big sports teams sharing one of the best stadiums in the country can surely be made to work well for both parties. I don’t know how it will happen, who will bring it about or when, but I trust it will happen. Endlessly hating Wasps is just wasted energy as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Nick]

But you said and I quote "The same as how the club were trying to rip of poor children etc but when wasps actually do it it's ok."

So if Wasps "actually" did what the club were trying to do then surely they'd have to be holding the "actual" knife? Wouldn't they?

It's a totally different point I was making, did my quote saying holding a knife up to a children's charity or trying to rip them off? Why not reply to the actual bit rather than pick something different again?

The club were trying to get acl cheap weren't they? My point is about what they were trying to get. Wasps would have cone in and taken said wallet while the person was down and shook up from the knife.

People were saying on here that it's a disgrace a children's charity losing out, giving it the poor children losing out stuff. In the end Wasps actually do it, but it's ok.

 

[skybluetony176]

No, the club were trying to get acl cheap weren't they? My point is about what they were trying to get. Wasps would have cone in and taken said wallet while the person was down and shook up from the knife.

People were saying on here that it's a disgrace a children's charity losing out, giving it the poor children losing out stuff. In the end Wasps actually do it, but it's ok.

So this wallet? When the guy left his house did it have money in it or was that taken in the knife attack and then someone else came along and paid for the empty wallet? I say empty, lets say for arguments sake that the knife carrying muggers returned to the scene of the crime just before the wallet purchasers arrived and put the loose change back in? Does that sound about right?

 

[Astute]

Everybody gets the “sports teams shouldn’t move” argument, and nobody is playing dumb. But if you think this case is simple, I beg to disagree.

Going back to London (assuming it was possible) wasn’t a popular idea for lots of Wasps followers, because after 13 years the London contingent were very much in the minority. The club actually tried to build a shiny new stadium in Wycombe – I wonder if that would have been OK with you, or whether it would it have made them the new MK Dons? Anyway, they had the planning application turned down.

Leaving all that aside, if the Wasps fans had staged meaningful resistance, I’d have been just as against their move as you are. But the Guardian report for their last game in Wycombe was called “WASPS SUPPORTERS ACCEPT MOVE TO COVENTRY WITHOUT ADAMS PARK PROTEST”. It said “There also seemed to be a collective acceptance there are no financially viable alternatives to Wasps’ impending switch to the Ricoh Arena”.

The contrast with our fans’ outrage about Sixfields could hardly be greater. So why are we continuing to fight this pointless battle for people who don’t even want us to?

CCFC have dug a huge hole and jumped right into it, and we have to climb out. Two big sports teams sharing one of the best stadiums in the country can surely be made to work well for both parties. I don’t know how it will happen, who will bring it about or when, but I trust it will happen. Endlessly hating Wasps is just wasted energy as far as I’m concerned.

If any of this is aimed at me you are miles off the mark.

But also you came out with the line “WASPS SUPPORTERS ACCEPT MOVE TO COVENTRY WITHOUT ADAMS PARK PROTEST” We had a city to protest in. That is where we protested. We were taken to Northampton for greed or to get the arena for the right price depending on which way you look at it. So how many times did we protest in Northamptons ground? None. Zilch. Zero. Just like our supporters that went there accepted the situation. But are you telling me that they agreed with the move or wanted it?

It was SISU that dug the hole. SISU and CCFC are not the same entity to me. One I love. One I hate. Two sports clubs should be able to share a stadium. But it will depend on how much we are charged in rent and how much match day revenue we are allowed. Wasps need us. But they also need to make money out of the deal. And the longer it goes on the less it will feel like our home.

So they are your points. They were not mine. Mine are much simpler. How can someone be shouting for ages about not going to Northampton then start saying about they are going to watch Wasps. A few are even bragging that they have stopped watching CCFC but are watching Wasps. Wasps didn't have to move so far away from their supporters. They are not a Coventry club. They won't be to me even if they start calling themselves Coventry Wasps. They moved so far because they saw a great opportunity.

And just because they had previously moved 20 miles doesn't make the move for another 80 miles OK.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And just because they had previously moved 20 miles doesn't make the move for another 80 miles OK.

Indeed. And all that shows is that they're more likely to move in the future again.

 

[Calista]

If any of this is aimed at me you are miles off the mark.

Astute – since you think I might have been “aiming” at you, I guess I need to reply, even on a day like today. I hope I don’t ever aim anything at anyone, and I respect everybody’s views on here. What I wrote was simply in response to ChiefDave, who said people were playing dumb. It’s hard not to rise to the bait when you hold a sincere opinion and it is ridiculed, or you are made out to be an immoral hypocrite.

I didn’t come out with the line you quoted – it was the Guardian headline. Your comparison with Northampton is wrong – the equivalent situation would have been SISU announcing a move to Sixfields BEFORE we left the Ricoh, and we all just turned up for matches with scarcely a murmur. Hard to imagine isn’t it? They had outstanding opportunities to protest at Adams Park before the move, and they chose not to - so I’m not going to do it for them long after the event. I just can’t see the point.

To be honest their attitude to the move surprises me – but I say let them make their own decisions.

PUSB – there are more important issues today, and there will be butterflies in the stomach all day. I happen to agree with you on virtually every other topic btw.

 

[stupot07]

To be honest their attitude to the move surprises me – but I say let them make their own decisions.

.

But their decisions directly impact on both Us and CRFC in the the medium to long term, and will ultimately be to the detriment to both of our Coventry clubs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[Astute]

Astute – since you think I might have been “aiming” at you, I guess I need to reply, even on a day like today. I hope I don’t ever aim anything at anyone, and I respect everybody’s views on here. What I wrote was simply in response to ChiefDave, who said people were playing dumb. It’s hard not to rise to the bait when you hold a sincere opinion and it is ridiculed, or you are made out to be an immoral hypocrite.

I didn’t come out with the line you quoted – it was the Guardian headline. Your comparison with Northampton is wrong – the equivalent situation would have been SISU announcing a move to Sixfields BEFORE we left the Ricoh, and we all just turned up for matches with scarcely a murmur. Hard to imagine isn’t it? They had outstanding opportunities to protest at Adams Park before the move, and they chose not to - so I’m not going to do it for them long after the event. I just can’t see the point.

To be honest their attitude to the move surprises me – but I say let them make their own decisions.

PUSB – there are more important issues today, and there will be butterflies in the stomach all day. I happen to agree with you on virtually every other topic btw.

Apologies if I got wrong what you were saying. But I stand by my point in this. If you see that our club is wrong to do something you should also see it wrong if it happens elsewhere. If it is then wrong to go to a ground somewhere for a reason it should also be wrong to go to a ground for a club wronged in the same way if you said the one for your own club was wrong.

Now if you can follow that you should have enough brain cells to know I am right

BTW I always pick people up for double standards. It is amazing sometimes the amount of people that didn't think about it or refuse to admit when it is put to them.

 

[Calista]

But their decisions directly impact on both Us and CRFC in the the medium to long term, and will ultimately be to the detriment to both of our Coventry clubs.

I agree that’s a danger. I was always 100% certain that one day CCFC and the Ricoh would be united, and that we would be one of the country’s top clubs. God I wish that had happened, but I find it really hard to blame anyone but our owners for failing to bring that about.

I still think the two-club scenario can be made to work for us, and surely that will be worked on.

Btw I really haven’t got a problem with anyone who resents the Wasps move – I almost feel the same way! I just wish the alternative view was respected too. Note to self – don’t get wound up by threads that should have been moved to the other forum anyway.