Judge Says Belief in Biological Sex Not Protected (2 Viewers)

shmmeee · Dec 19, 2019

Don’t want to kick off the trans debate again, but this blew my mind.

Judge rules against researcher who lost job over transgender tweets

Woman fighting a dismissal claims her view that humans can’t change sex is deeply held and core to her personal beliefs and as such should be protected in the same way religious or other philosophical beliefs are.

Judge rules against her, basically saying you can now be sacked for saying humans can’t change sex (a scientific fact).

On R4 this morning they were likening it to Muslims believing homosexuality is a sin. Not sure I buy that.

How are you not allowed to believe what the current scientific evidence points to? Insanity.

I think the question of how much speech should be free is interesting, but it’s generally about opinions not facts. What say you SBT?

Astute · Dec 19, 2019

We can change sex. But how much we can change sex is debatable.

You can have one chopped off and made into the other. Is that enough for it ti be legally done?

richnrg · Dec 19, 2019

...and ive already started growing my own tits

Otis · Dec 19, 2019

richnrg said:
...and ive already started growing my own tits

How often do you water them?

richnrg · Dec 19, 2019

Otis said:
How often do you water them?

probably too regularly

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 19, 2019

I think it's the difference in background.

From a legal perspective people can change sex, so a judge is going to look at it from that perspective.

From a biological perspective humans cannot change sex. There are some species that can (mainly fish and amphibians I believe) and we can't naturally go through that same process. In order to make physical changes we need to undergo surgery and have additional hormones injected etc for any changes to occur. So a scientist will see it from that perspective.

Covkid1968# · Dec 19, 2019

richnrg said:
...and ive already started growing my own tits

A picture would be useful so we can support you in your endeavours

shmmeee · Dec 19, 2019

Astute said:
We can change sex. But how much we can change sex is debatable.

You can have one chopped off and made into the other. Is that enough for it ti be legally done?

No one has ever gone from capable of producing male gametes to producing female ones and likely never will.

Astute · Dec 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
No one has ever gone from capable of producing male gametes to producing female ones and likely never will.

So are you saying that someone who has gone through a full sex change hasn't changed at all?

shmmeee · Dec 19, 2019

Astute said:
So are you saying that someone who has gone through a full sex change hasn't changed at all?

We call it a sex change but it doesn’t change your biological sex, it’s just plastic surgery.

Astute · Dec 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
We call it a sex change but it doesn’t change your biological sex, it’s just plastic surgery.

And drugs......

So are you saying that anyone who has gone through a full sex change should be treated as though they have had nothing done?

fellatio_Martinez · Dec 19, 2019

I see articles all the time now that read e.g "Man gives birth to twins in Australia"

No, it's not a fucking man as that would be impossible. It's as if people have just abandoned all scientific facts and decided to live in make believe land.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 19, 2019

Astute said:
And drugs......

So are you saying that anyone who has gone through a full sex change should be treated as though they have had nothing done?

So if someone has overcome cancer with the help of surgery and chemotherapy etc do we then just ignore that they needed those things to overcome it and just say that person can cure cancer?

Without the surgery and drugs those people would still be the sex they were before. This a legal vs biological issue and biologically people cannot change gender.

Astute · Dec 19, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
So if someone has overcome cancer with the help of surgery and chemotherapy etc do we then just ignore that they needed those things to overcome it and just say that person can cure cancer?

Without the surgery and drugs those people would still be the sex they were before. This a legal vs biological issue and biologically people cannot change gender.

That isn't what I am saying though.

Are you saying that those who have gone through a full sex change should be treated as though nothing has happened? Should someone who is now a man have to use women's toilets and showers?

It isn't as simple as biological. What rights do people have? This is both those who have gone through a full sex change and those who haven't.

Sick Boy · Dec 19, 2019

I agree with what @Astute is getting at, it’s easy to judge when it’s not you who’s going through the experience, it’s easy to judge when you’re not the one going through it.

If people’s lives are improved and they feel more themselves by changing sex then that’s their decision and it should be respected. It’s not only biological and is somewhat psychological as well.

Marty · Dec 19, 2019

Free speech is paramount, we don't have it. Theres a case in Finland (I think), where the parents of a 14 year old wanted to transition but the parents thought it best they waited until they were of a certain age before making that decision, the child was removed from them to undergo gender reassignment.

Sick Boy · Dec 19, 2019

Marty said:
Free speech is paramount, we don't have it. Theres a case in Finland (I think), where the parents of a 14 year old wanted to transition but the parents thought it best they waited until they were of a certain age before making that decision, the child was removed from them to undergo gender reassignment.

Well, we do actually have free speech.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 19, 2019

Astute said:
That isn't what I am saying though.

Are you saying that those who have gone through a full sex change should be treated as though nothing has happened? Should someone who is now a man have to use women's toilets and showers?

It isn't as simple as biological. What rights do people have? This is both those who have gone through a full sex change and those who haven't.

Of course not, but that's the legal side. From a legal perspective I believe they have every right to IDENTITY as a different gender, undergo transition and to do all those other things.

But at the same time from the biological standpoint they haven't changed gender - they're relying on hormone injections etc to overcome their bodies natural programming and if they stop taking them that programming will reassert itself.

Hence we have the problems surrounding transgender in sport, esp males who've changed to female.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Dec 19, 2019

Well, in the future on everyones birth certificate where it says "gender" the standard confirmation should be "to be confirmed in about 15-70 yearsish.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Dec 19, 2019

richnrg said:
...and ive already started growing my own tits

How many this time ?

fernandopartridge · Dec 19, 2019

Astute said:
So are you saying that someone who has gone through a full sex change hasn't changed at all?

Yep

tisza · Dec 19, 2019

Spent a couple of hours going through this as it's interesting. Cannot for the life of me work out where free speech, religious (or other) belief and scientific fact can draw clear lines on this issue.
Moving the balancing between physical and psychological approaches is surely subjective.
Sympathetic to the people that want to see themselves in a different way but don't think someone should be punished for stating fact.
It's always a fuzzy situation when laws (which are basically based on opinion) are made on issues that seemingly go against physical fact.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Dec 19, 2019

Astute said:
So are you saying that someone who has gone through a full sex change hasn't changed at all?

If they change into a woman they'll have big feet. "Have you got any 4 inch heels in a size 10 darlin'?"

Gazolba · Dec 19, 2019

If you have paired X chromosomes you are female and if you have an X and a Y pair, you are male.
No amount of surgery can change that.
Of course, it's a bit more complex than that.
Look at Wikipedia:
Sex chromosome - Wikipedia

duffer · Dec 19, 2019

I've only really scanned the judgement, but luckily all of these years following City have turned me into a stellar legal expert (and an exemplary forensic accountant).

I think what I'm seeing here is the judge saying that the belief that it's impossible to biologically change sex does not provide the right to deny transgender people the right to self-identify (and be treated as the sex that they choose to identify as).

I think I'm broadly with the judge on this, although I can see a lot of grey areas (insert own joke here...).

Marty · Dec 19, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Well, we do actually have free speech.

No we don't, 'hate speech' is an arrestable offence.

duffer · Dec 19, 2019

Gazolba said:
If you have paired X chromosomes you are female and if you have an X and a Y pair, you are male.
No amount of surgery can change that.
Of course, it's a bit more complex than that.
Look at Wikipedia:
Sex chromosome - Wikipedia

In my head I've got something about epigenetics. I wonder if one day they'll be able to change people's sex by manipulating genes - at that point is it a true biological change though?

Sick Boy · Dec 19, 2019

Marty said:
No we don't, 'hate speech' is an arrestable offence.

Yeah things like racism, xenophobia and homophobia should just be one big free for all eh? What exactly do you feel you’re being prevented from saying by the country’s laws?

shmmeee · Dec 19, 2019

Astute said:
And drugs......

So are you saying that anyone who has gone through a full sex change should be treated as though they have had nothing done?

Im saying they should be treated with respect same as anyone else. But also that reality is a thing and there are circumstances where it needs to take precedent.

Marty · Dec 19, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Yeah things like racism, xenophobia and homophobia should just be one big free for all eh? What exactly do you feel you’re being prevented from saying by the country’s laws?

Just confirmed my point that we don't have free speech.

shmmeee · Dec 19, 2019

duffer said:
I've only really scanned the judgement, but luckily all of these years following City have turned me into a stellar legal expert (and an exemplary forensic accountant).

I think what I'm seeing here is the judge saying that the belief that it's impossible to biologically change sex does not provide the right to deny transgender people the right to self-identify (and be treated as the sex that they choose to identify as).

I think I'm broadly with the judge on this, although I can see a lot of grey areas (insert own joke here...).

How can you deny someone the right to self identify? Why does one persons identity and beliefs come ahead of another? There’s nothing inherently insulting about saying someone is a man or a woman.

Sick Boy said:
Yeah things like racism, xenophobia and homophobia should just be one big free for all eh? What exactly do you feel you’re being prevented from saying by the country’s laws?

Well the thread topic is kinda a hint. The real question is how do you define that list of phobias? Especially in a world where people genuinely say that drinking Tumeric Lattes is racism.

Offence can’t be the bar, it’s entirely subjective and personal and impossible to prove.

I’m generally a free speech absolutist, but then also see what truly free speech has done online. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as some make out on either side. Find it a fascinating topic though.

Sick Boy · Dec 19, 2019

Marty said:
Just confirmed my point that we don't have free speech.

If you think it’s okay for people to be use racism to attack people or to advocate murder done ones beliefs then fair enough I guess.

Sick Boy · Dec 19, 2019

shmmeee said:
How can you deny someone the right to self identify? Why does one persons identity and beliefs come ahead of another? There’s nothing inherently insulting about saying someone is a man or a woman.

Well the thread topic is kinda a hint. The real question is how do you define that list of phobias? Especially in a world where people genuinely say that drinking Tumeric Lattes is racism.

Offence can’t be the bar, it’s entirely subjective and personal and impossible to prove.

I’m generally a free speech absolutist, but then also see what truly free speech has done online. I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as some make out on either side. Find it a fascinating topic though.

Then where do you draw the line? It’s easy to spout about how hate speech should be allowed when you’re a white male though.

Marty · Dec 19, 2019

Sick Boy said:
If you think it’s okay for people to be use racism to attack people or to advocate murder done ones beliefs then fair enough I guess.

Did you know that this week alone, people are campaigning for words like geek and nerd to be included under 'hate speech' laws.

Marty · Dec 19, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Then where do you draw the line? It’s easy to spout about how hate speech should be allowed when you’re a white male though.

Just lost any credibility you may have had.

Judge Says Belief in Biological Sex Not Protected (2 Viewers)

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