Kcic front bid to buy club (22 Viewers)

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

Grendel said:
Because if there are more than 5,000 fans sisu have to deal with ACL.

1) Why?

2) Why is this any of your concern, as a fan?

Edit: I'll clarify. Why would Sisu have to deal with ACL above 5k but not below it? All the offer states is that KCIC would seek reimbursement if above 5k, nothing about ACL. I assume that the rent would already have been paid at that point and the deal would be between KCIC and Sisu.

Seriously, try harder. This is a no brainer.

Edit 2: One question for you, Nick, Torchy, etc.

Why do you, as a fan, give a shiny shit what Sisu want, or who they want to deal with?

The tension with the majority you're feeling is because a genuine City fan couldn't understand not wanting the club back home. You talk about the Ricoh not being in the long term interests, well this deal has solved that. They can still build a ground or buy the Ricoh, nothing changes.

Unless of course, hurting a council owned company matters more to you than Coventry City FC. Which would place an extra level of irony of you accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a council fan.

Grendel · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
1) Why?

2) Why is this any of your concern, as a fan?

What are you on about? Sisu turned the same offer down last year. They don't want a rent deal with your friends at ACL - what is there to understand?

wince · Jun 21, 2014

There are no fans against playing in Coventry - that's not the issue is it?

sorry but that's exactly the issue

Grendel · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
1) Why?

2) Why is this any of your concern, as a fan?

Edit: I'll clarify. Why would Sisu have to deal with ACL above 5k but not below it? All the offer states is that KCIC would seek reimbursement if above 5k, nothing about ACL. I assume that the rent would already have been paid at that point and the deal would be between KCIC and Sisu.

Seriously, try harder. This is a no brainer.

How much is the rent them per game?

Nick · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
1) Why?

2) Why is this any of your concern, as a fan?

Edit: I'll clarify. Why would Sisu have to deal with ACL above 5k but not below it? All the offer states is that KCIC would seek reimbursement if above 5k, nothing about ACL. I assume that the rent would already have been paid at that point and the deal would be between KCIC and Sisu.

Seriously, try harder. This is a no brainer.

Edit 2: One question for you, Nick, Torchy, etc.

Why do you, as a fan, give a shiny shit what Sisu want, or who they want to deal with?

The tension with the majority you're feeling is because a genuine City fan couldn't understand not wanting the club back home. You talk about the Ricoh not being in the long term interests, well this deal has solved that. They can still build a ground or buy the Ricoh, nothing changes.

Unless of course, hurting a council owned company matters more to you than Coventry City FC. Which would place an extra level of irony of you accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a council fan.

I couldn't give a shit about SISU, the council, ACL and wouldn't lose any sleep if they all went under and ended up in jail as long as it didn't have any effect on CCFC. I just want the best deal for the club and would like this to work which means thinking of what SISU "MAY" go with and what could work to get it done. At the minute they do own the club so they need to be worked with slightly.

The first question SISU will ask (if they even ask any) is about how much the rent is, what they will get etc.

If people moan about these simple questions, what happens if KCIC are ever a go between for SISU and ACL. They will get absolutely slaughtered.

Grendel · Jun 21, 2014

Schmeee how much is the rent?

chiefdave · Jun 21, 2014

Nick said:
Surely the rent amounts, match costs, if the club gets any match day revenue etc.

I think you can assume, based on the most recent offers, costs would be in the region of £400K per season inclusive of matchday costs and non ticketing revenues would go to ACL. Again though this can work in SISUs favour. Release a statement saying they welcome the offer from KCIC as they appreciate any organisation who is attempting to get the club playing in Coventry. State that they will be happy to give the offer serious consideration once they have seen proof of funds from KCIC and have conformation from ACL of the inclusive cost for the next 3 seasons. Makes SISU look good and if either KCIC can't show proof of funds or ACL state a rental agreement in excess of the most recent publicly known offers for once our owners look like the good guys and the fans focus will shift onto someone else. Why would they not want that?

stupot07 said:
But 5k+ will turn up. So sisu will be reimbursing KCIC, therefore SISU will be paying the rent. Which begs the question how is this offer anymore beneficial than sisu and ACL agreeing terms separately. Quite funny really as Andy's Turners article completely ignores the reimbursement element. Even if KCIC are middlemen sisu will have to deal with ACL anyway.

chiefdave said:
I appreciate some are saying there is no chance of the crowds being below 5,000 but even in that scenario this proposal has a huge plus. Most recently SISU have claimed we can't return to the Ricoh on a short term deal while the new stadium is built as they can't deal with ACL. With this proposal they wouldn't have to, KCIC would. Who knows, being back in the stadium might see the relationship start to be fixed and if at the end of this offer the new stadium hasn't come to fruition SISU and ACL may be at a place where they can both enter negotiations for a permanent solution in a meaningful manner.

Why would SISU have to deal with ACL if KCIC were the middleman? ACL say to KCIC we will charge you £400K inclusive of matchday costs, if crowds are in excess of 5,000 KCIC charge SISU. Any day to day dealings to do with putting on the matches etc won't be done by SISU directors and their staff and ACLs staff should both be able to behave in a professional manner to each other. Maybe that will be the first step on the road to an improved relationship between the two.

Grendel said:
How much is the rent them per game?

Based on the most recent offers approx £17K inclusive of matchday costs.

wince · Jun 21, 2014

Why do you, as a fan, give a shiny shit what Sisu want, or who they want to deal with

How much is the rent them per game? point proven

Nick · Jun 21, 2014

chiefdave said:
I think you can assume, based on the most recent offers, costs would be in the region of £400K per season inclusive of matchday costs and non ticketing revenues would go to ACL. Again though this can work in SISUs favour. Release a statement saying they welcome the offer from KCIC as they appreciate any organisation who is attempting to get the club playing in Coventry. State that they will be happy to give the offer serious consideration once they have seen proof of funds from KCIC and have conformation from ACL of the inclusive cost for the next 3 seasons. Makes SISU look good and if either KCIC can't show proof of funds or ACL state a rental agreement in excess of the most recent publicly known offers for once our owners look like the good guys and the fans focus will shift onto someone else. Why would they not want that?

Why would SISU have to deal with ACL if KCIC were the middleman? ACL say to KCIC we will charge you £400K inclusive of matchday costs, if crowds are in excess of 5,000 KCIC charge SISU. Any day to day dealings to do with putting on the matches etc won't be done by SISU directors and their staff and ACLs staff should both be able to behave in a professional manner to each other. Maybe that will be the first step on the road to an improved relationship between the two.

Based on the most recent offers approx £17K inclusive of matchday costs.

The thing is, that is all assumptions isn't it? Why not just make them all public to put even more pressure on?

chiefdave · Jun 21, 2014

Nick said:
The thing is, that is all assumptions isn't it? Why not just make them all public to put even more pressure on?

Why not flip that question. If SISU say they will proceed once they have that information the pressure is on ACL, surely something that would be attractive to SISU? If ACL then come out and say it's £1m a year rent and £1m a year matchday costs what do you think the reaction would be, do you think people would blame SISU for that?

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

Grendel said:
Schmeee how much is the rent?

Does it matter?

To make a loss on 5k tickets it'd have to be (23 x 5k x £9.5 (est average ticket price)) over £1m/year (and that's before you consider the value of goodwill and increased merchandise). Considering the last offer from ACL was £150k and the one before £400k, I seriously doubt if Joy's hard nosed negotiating has bumped it back up to £1m.

Again: Other than the fact that Michael is fronting it. What exactly is your issue with this as a fan?

Grendel · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
Does it matter?

To make a loss on 5k tickets it'd have to be (23 x 5k x £9.5 (est average ticket price)) over £1m/year (and that's before you consider the value of goodwill and increased merchandise). Considering the last offer from ACL was £150k and the one before £400k, I seriously doubt if Joy's hard nosed negotiating has bumped it back up to £1m.

Again: Other than the fact that Michael is fronting it. What exactly is your issue with this as a fan?

You said it was a no brainer - say its £1.3 million a year - might fill your councils greedy belly but not good deal.

Grendel · Jun 21, 2014

chiefdave said:
Why not flip that question. If SISU say they will proceed once they have that information the pressure is on ACL, surely something that would be attractive to SISU? If ACL then come out and say it's £1m a year rent and £1m a year matchday costs what do you think the reaction would be, do you think people would blame SISU for that?

And if its exactly the same as the prior deal they turned down?

M&B Stand · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
Does it matter?

To make a loss on 5k tickets it'd have to be (23 x 5k x £9.5 (est average ticket price)) over £1m/year (and that's before you consider the value of goodwill and increased merchandise). Considering the last offer from ACL was £150k and the one before £400k, I seriously doubt if Joy's hard nosed negotiating has bumped it back up to £1m.

Again: Other than the fact that Michael is fronting it. What exactly is your issue with this as a fan?

ACL can charge anything as long as it's better than your Northampton calculations. Is that what you're saying?

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

Grendel said:
You said it was a no brainer - say its £1.3 million a year - might fill your councils greedy belly but not good deal.

What have the council got to do with anything? Or are you bringing up the long discredited myth (spread by you) that somehow the council ever made money out of CCFC?

OK, let's say it is £1.3m/year. Let's also not be kind to Sisu and assume that they will bring in more than the 5k fans I used in my last post.

1300000 / 23 / 9.5 = a breakeven number of fans Sisu would need to bring in is...

.....

drumroll

....

What is this huge number that we will never get according to Grendel?

....

5950 fans.

You're right man! Give it up! It's a loss! We'll never bring in those extra 950 fans! Stay in Sixfields!

chiefdave · Jun 21, 2014

Grendel said:
And if its exactly the same as the prior deal they turned down?

SISU claimed they could not accept a rental deal as they could not work with ACL. With the offer from KCIC they wouldn't need to so they can accept an offer that is financially beneficial to our owners and to our club and as I've said, who knows, it could be the first step to repairing the relationship.

Nick · Jun 21, 2014

chiefdave said:
Why not flip that question. If SISU say they will proceed once they have that information the pressure is on ACL, surely something that would be attractive to SISU? If ACL then come out and say it's £1m a year rent and £1m a year matchday costs what do you think the reaction would be, do you think people would blame SISU for that?

How can anybody say they will proceed once they have the information information that people would need to be able to even consider it?

Sell it to them, make it publically un-refusable (if that is even a word)

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

M&B Stand said:
ACL can charge anything as long as it's better than your Northampton calculations. Is that what you're saying?

As. A. Fan. I care that my club are in the City that bears their name and that they are not financially put out by it. As shown repeatedly, the only possible case where this could hurt my club is if they manage to attract an average amount of fans between 5000-5950.

Frankly if that's the case the club is fucked whatever rent they're on.

I care not what ACL do. As. A. Fan.

M&B Stand · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
As. A. Fan. I care that my club are in the City that bears their name and that they are not financially put out by it. As shown repeatedly, the only possible case where this could hurt my club is if they manage to attract an average amount of fans between 5000-5950.

Frankly if that's the case the club is fucked whatever rent they're on.

I care not what ACL do. As. A. Fan.

Do you not think the club has been put out financially since they moved to the Ricoh.

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

M&B Stand said:
Do you not think the club has been put out financially since they moved to the Ricoh.

What the flying fuck has that got to do with anything?

Edit: FWIW, I think despite popular opinion, we'd be here even if we were at HR. We'd just have been relegated from the Championship earlier. The mismanagement of this club goes far deeper and wider than just the stadium we play in.

chiefdave · Jun 21, 2014

Nick said:
How can anybody say they will proceed once they have the information information that people would need to be able to even consider it?

By proceed I mean they will move to the next stage once they have proof of funds and conformation from ACL of the offer. The next stage being to give it full consideration.

It would take about 5 minutes of SISU's time to put out a statement bouncing it back to KCIC and ACL, why wouldn't they do that? There is no possible downside for SISU in doing that unless they have no desire to return to the Ricoh. If they get proof of funds and details from ACL they still don't have to accept but if it falls apart before that is provided to SISU the blame shifts on to someone else.

If it was me, after years of abuse the likes of ML and TF have received, the thought of someone else getting the blame would be very appealing.

Grendel · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
What the flying fuck has that got to do with anything?

Edit: FWIW, I think despite popular opinion, we'd be here even if we were at HR. We'd just have relegated from the Championship earlier. The mismanagement of this club goes far deeper and wider than just the stadium we play in.

To CCFC fans everything. To a council drone nothing.

I can see why you were hounded out of GMK now.

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

Grendel said:
To CCFC fans everything. To a council drone nothing.

I can see why you were hounded out of GMK now.

Hahaha "hounded out" you live in your own little world don't you?

So, just to get your logic straight (someone has to) you're saying we should never return to Coventry because we agreed to a bad rent deal in the past (and the Ricoh is the only available ground in Cov and is owned by the Council)?

That's your belief, right?

Godiva · Jun 21, 2014

Everybody wants the club back playing at the Ricoh.
I want the club and ACL under the same umbrella - SBS&L. There are others on this board who wants that too.

The KCIC offer does not offer that.

It has been suggested that ACL have the same problem as the club - the debts exceeds the value of the company.

Why does KCIC not front an offer to ACL to buy their shares for some £50.000. The debts (loan to the council) written off.
Then offer the shares to SBS&L for £50.000 if they make a donation of £5m to Higgs Charity.

Nick · Jun 21, 2014

Godiva said:
Everybody wants the club back playing at the Ricoh.
I want the club and ACL under the same umbrella - SBS&L. There are others on this board who wants that too.

The KCIC offer does not offer that.

It has been suggested that ACL have the same problem as the club - the debts exceeds the value of the company.

Why does KCIC not front an offer to ACL to buy their shares for some £50.000. The debts (loan to the council) written off.
Then offer the shares to SBS&L for £50.000 if they make a donation of £5m to Higgs Charity.

Even better, do the same for both club and ACL and bring them together

M&B Stand · Jun 21, 2014

shmmeee said:
What the flying fuck has that got to do with anything?

Edit: FWIW, I think despite popular opinion, we'd be here even if we were at HR. We'd just have been relegated from the Championship earlier. The mismanagement of this club goes far deeper and wider than just the stadium we play in.

You said you didn't want your club put out financially.

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

Godiva said:
Everybody wants the club back playing at the Ricoh.
I want the club and ACL under the same umbrella - SBS&L. There are others on this board who wants that too.

The KCIC offer does not offer that.

It has been suggested that ACL have the same problem as the club - the debts exceeds the value of the company.

Why does KCIC not front an offer to ACL to buy their shares for some £50.000. The debts (loan to the council) written off.
Then offer the shares to SBS&L for £50.000 if they make a donation of £5m to Higgs Charity.

So what?

It offers 3 years to sort that out, and if that can't be sorted a new ground to be built. It's neutral on the issue of the long term ownership of the ground.

More importantly it offers the fans 3 years of watching their team. 3 years of going up with your Dad before he's too old. 3 years to indoctrinate the kids before they find something else. 3 years of meeting your mates before the game at the pub. 3 years of bitching about each other's ridiculous football opinions rather than our knowledge of the state aid rules and accountancy.

Sorry if I sound like a broken record here. But FFS man.

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

M&B Stand said:
You said you didn't want your club put out financially.

Oh sorry, I forgot, you're the M&B Stand who has the time machine. Sorry mate, when exactly shall we go back to? Personally I think it's when McGinnity sold the share, but others think the whole Ricoh project was a bust.

Grendel · Jun 21, 2014

Godiva said:
Everybody wants the club back playing at the Ricoh.
I want the club and ACL under the same umbrella - SBS&L. There are others on this board who wants that too.

The KCIC offer does not offer that.

It has been suggested that ACL have the same problem as the club - the debts exceeds the value of the company.

Why does KCIC not front an offer to ACL to buy their shares for some £50.000. The debts (loan to the council) written off.
Then offer the shares to SBS&L for £50.000 if they make a donation of £5m to Higgs Charity.

At last a voice of reason

shmmeee · Jun 21, 2014

Grendel said:
At last a voice of reason

No, sorry it's not. It's a voice of fucking idiocy. It's saying "Hey man, why don't we just resolve this long running, bitter battle with no clear end.". It's not a solution, it's a fucking fairytale.

The best position for KCIC and any other fans group is to be neutral on the long term ownership (as none of us know the ins and outs of any potential deal for either side) and to be clear on our main wish of wanting the club back in Cov. Frankly, we should never have been drawn into the he said she said crap. We were/are at our strongest when we were clear that regardless of anything else we want the club to be playing in Coventry.

This offer removes all the reasons given why the club cannot return in the interim. The other stuff can be sorted out, but step 1 has to be ending the war on the fans that is the move to Northampton. Whatever else happened, we didn't overcharge the club or renege of deals.

Edit: for the sake of my blood pressure, I'm out for the night.

letsallsingtogether · Jun 21, 2014

So everyone wants to be back at the Ricoh.
Wrong there are some on here that would hate it
You know who you are and I say bollox to the lot of you. I have done as much as I care too hope you enjoy the shit that will be left. So enjoy the shitfield experience while it lasts you have fucked the club forever.
RIP CCFC

italiahorse · Jun 21, 2014

letsallsingtogether said:
So everyone wants to be back at the Ricoh.
Wrong there are some on here that would hate it
You know who you are and I say bollox to the lot of you. I have done as much as I care too hope you enjoy the shit that will be left. So enjoy the shitfield experience while it lasts you have fucked the club forever.
RIP CCFC

This about sums it up.
After another 3 years the only people left will be the Sixfields attendees and SISU. Those ripping apart the offer are also predominantly those attendees. We will be be long gone and you will have the club you deserve. Lemmings.

Nick · Jun 21, 2014

italiahorse said:
This about sums it up.
After another 3 years the only people left will be the Sixfields attendees and SISU. Those ripping apart the offer are also predominantly those attendees. We will be be long gone and you will have the club you deserve. Lemmings.

Who has ripped apart the offer? Do you mean the ones asking constructive questions about it? When was the last time you were constructive on here?

Do you hate the fact you have given SISU more money than me last season (a SISU supporter / lover)? ointlaugh: Must have felt bad handing money over to Joy.

italiahorse · Jun 21, 2014

Nick said:
Who has ripped apart the offer? Do you mean the ones asking constructive questions about it? When was the last time you were constructive on here?

Do you hate the fact you have given SISU more money than me last season?

I don't care about giving SISU money, never have.
But my morals and love of the club will never let me go to Sixfields. I can hold my head up high knowing I have not supported SISU plan even once.

olderskyblue · Jun 21, 2014

Bloody hell, just read through some of this thread. Fwiw, in my business, I have made offers without full detail many many times. It's to get people round a table where the finer detail can then be discussed, and maybe agreed.

Im a little surprised that those asking for more detail can't see this.

Isn't this a potential step forward if SISU would actually meet to discuss it, and something people like NW have been advocating for ages?

I don't give a damn about the detail if it got talks, however unlikely, to start.

Kcic front bid to buy club (22 Viewers)

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