Kevin Maton (2 Viewers)

[Grendel]

An independent valuation means nothing.

The Stadium was worth exactly what the highest bidder offered.
When there's only one bidder and no reserve, they walk away with the prize.

That is the value.

No that’s the value on a 38 year lease there was no bid process even at that

Sorry you are just wrong

 

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[fatso]

I feel like we've stepped back in time.

But if somebody offers you a deal and you want to maximise value, you sound out other parties, or at least let them know they have to up their game.

What other parties, there wernt any.

In what world are you thinking there's loads of football clubs (or anyone else) looking for a 30k seater stadium in Cov?

 

[fatso]

No that’s the value on a 38 year lease there was no bid process even at that

Sorry you are just wrong

So who else was looking to bid Grendel?
You need bidders to have a bid process.

 

[Grendel]

What other parties, there wernt any.

In what world are you thinking there's loads of football clubs (or anyone else) looking for a 30k seater stadium in Cov?

it was a closed bid on a 38 year lease which from a commercial value is worthless

 

[Grendel]

So who else was looking to bid Grendel?
You need bidders to have a bid process.

You need to say it’s for sale first. When the football club moved back the council were trying to claim they’d look to sell it to them having already sold it.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What other parties, there wernt any.

In what world are you thinking there's loads of football clubs (or anyone else) looking for a 30k seater stadium in Cov?

The same world that allows a London Rugby club to pop over, and the Coventry Football Club to be frozen out... there's at least one auction to be had there to raise the price.

And as mentioned, if you were seriously after value you'd offer it for anything, anyway. Warehouses, housing, aerodrome, battery factory, Maton's own personal caviar and champagne depositry...

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You need to say it’s for sale first. When the football club moved back the council were trying to claim they’d look to sell it to them having already sold it.

However, I'm pretty sure us moving back was some kind of attempt to block once they found out or retain rights to their option, rather than the club being in the dark to the very end. It seemed too hasty...

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

What other parties, there wernt any.

In what world are you thinking there's loads of football clubs (or anyone else) looking for a 30k seater stadium in Cov?

For a 38 year lease - no bidders. (Although someone at our friends forum drunken wasps believe there was actually 3)

for a 250 year lease - again, SISU said theyd have been interested at the price wasps paid

 

[tisza]

Wel tbh, I didn't see a long list of potential buyers!!!
In fact there was only 1, which was 1 more than SISU bargained for.

People say Wasps got the stadium on the cheap, but when there's only 1 buyer, and a seller has to sell, their offer becomes the dayfacto valuation.

Ccfc had been ruled out as a potential bidder due to defaulting on their tenancy agreement, while at the same time moving to six fields and publicly declaring their intention to build a new stadium.
(Not to mention deliberately and maliciously seeking to distress ACL)

I'm sure we don't need to drag this shit up any longer, as it's hardly helpful.

We are where we are, it is what it is etc etc.

Fingers crossed the mediation process will make some headway.

Let's get back to supporting the city, while SISU continue to try and get the stadium for nothing, and Wasps continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

you've got to be kidding. Where was the potential sale advertised? It was a deal done behind closed doors.
Legally CCFC's actions didn't disqualify them from being a potential buyer.
Council's responsibility was to maximize any potential return on a "public" asset - not operate behind closed doors with a single buyer they seemed to have pursued themselves for a considerable period before the deal went through. Provisional meetings were reported to have taken up to 12 months earlier - plenty of time to market the stadium to other potential buyers.

 

[chiefdave]

Competitively marketed to attract who exactly?

There was never any indication it was available with anything more than the 38 years remaining on the initial lease. In fact when it was suggested that to make it a viable purchase the freehold would be needed it was ridiculed.

IMO the 250 is, to all intents and purposes, not that far removed from owning the freehold. The only real difference is you can't just know the ground down to build houses or something like that, well I assume you can't with our council you never know. Personally I feel the 250 year lease rather than freehold was done to avoid disposal of assets procedure needing to be followed.

None of us have any idea who would have been interested with a 250 year lease on the table because that was never put on offer. We do know AEG previously expressed an interest in operating the complex so that's one potential bidder, NEC Group have been taking on new venues as both owners and operators so there's another potential buyer. Maybe with 250 years on offer someone who was interested in owning the club would have bid with a view to also purchasing the club.

You can't just say nobody else was interested in something nobody else knew was available.

 

[Ashdown]

Vermin
I'm not into politics but people like him have hijacked the Labour party for their own aims

Blair started all that

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Blair started all that

C'mon, war in Iraq I'll give you, but even he didn't bring Wasps to Coventry!

 

[chiefdave]

What other parties, there wernt any.

In what world are you thinking there's loads of football clubs (or anyone else) looking for a 30k seater stadium in Cov?

Why would it have to be a football club? Who would have ever said a London rugby club would be interested in buying a stadium in Coventry.

Of course its not just the stadium. You may well have had someone who was interested in the other parts of the complex and then sublet the stadium bowl to the club.

 

[Ashdown]

It amazes me how some people have a rose tinted view on what really happened. Sisu tried to get the stadium on the cheap by leaving - putting pressure on the council and a charity- Higgs Trust to sell on the cheap to a hedge fund who NO OF US TRUSTED . Any council not just Coventrys have a responsibility to get the best deal for the Coventry public - because its OUR MONEY which helped towards the development of the stadium. If Sisu got thier way - and got the stadium on the cheap - WE ...the local council tax payer would of lost out . The council got thier money back because a business was prepared to pay the full amount - NOT at the expense of the local tax payer .Sisu had the carpet pulled from under thier feet . And rightly so .
I don't support Wasps or like them here - no more than anyone else . But the council - who are not by far perfect, were right to get the best financial deal for its citizens and not just for skyblues fans.

Turns out that was all absolute bollocks

 

[fatso]

you've got to be kidding. Where was the potential sale advertised? It was a deal done behind closed doors.
Legally CCFC's actions didn't disqualify them from being a potential buyer.
Council's responsibility was to maximize any potential return on a "public" asset - not operate behind closed doors with a single buyer they seemed to have pursued themselves for a considerable period before the deal went through. Provisional meetings were reported to have taken up to 12 months earlier - plenty of time to market the stadium to other potential buyers.

CCFC's actions may not have LEGALLY, prevented them from bidding, but there was no way they were going to be considered by the seller. (And yes, that's where it becomes a shit show)

As far as ACL/CCC/Higgs Trust were concerned, SISU had become untrustworthy, and the clubs announcement that they intended to build a new stadium, not to mention the renaging on a legal tenancy agreement, effectively gave the owners a reason to ignore them. (Hence no post sale legal action from SISU)

We can argue about the moral conduct of all concerned for as long as you like, but we are where we are.

Ironically, it looks like we could be entering another fight for the Arena ownership if Wasps can't find a sugar daddy very quickly.
And this time the council will have next to no say.
And it would be interesting to see what Wasps valuation of the Arena is, and what SISU would be prepared to pay, not to mention what other potential buyers could muddy the waters.

 

[Ashdown]

C'mon, war in Iraq I'll give you, but even he didn't bring Wasps to Coventry!

The post was in relation to hijacking a party for his own ends. Did very well him and Cherie didn’t they ?

 

[CovFan]

Honestly had no idea Maton was Lord Mayor until this thread. He blocked me anyway after replying to the first tweet in the OP "I don't think it was a good decision to sell the Ricoh at a low price to a franchise rugby club tbh"

 

[clint van damme]

Competitively marketed to attract who exactly?

It was public knowledge that the arena was empty and for sale, anyone could have expressed an interest or made an offer.

It was costing ACL thousands of pounds a week to maintain, with no income streams.

Exactly how long should they have sat on it for while waiting for some mythical fairy godmother to come crawling out of the woodwork?

You haven't answered his point about the lease extension.

 

[fatso]

Why would it have to be a football club? Who would have ever said a London rugby club would be interested in buying a stadium in Coventry.

Of course its not just the stadium. You may well have had someone who was interested in the other parts of the complex and then sublet the stadium bowl to the club.

Tbf the whole world new we had left the stadium, anyone could of picked up the phone and contacted ACL or CCC if they were interested in bidding.
And Wasps had the right to request to have their business conducted in private.

I'm sure the reality was that CCC just wanted rid ASAP, and didn't give a fuck who bought it as long as it wasn't SISU.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It amazes me how some people have a rose tinted view on what really happened. Sisu tried to get the stadium on the cheap by leaving - putting pressure on the council and a charity- Higgs Trust to sell on the cheap to a hedge fund who NO OF US TRUSTED . Any council not just Coventrys have a responsibility to get the best deal for the Coventry public - because its OUR MONEY which helped towards the development of the stadium. If Sisu got thier way - and got the stadium on the cheap - WE ...the local council tax payer would of lost out . The council got thier money back because a business was prepared to pay the full amount - NOT at the expense of the local tax payer .Sisu had the carpet pulled from under thier feet . And rightly so .
I don't support Wasps or like them here - no more than anyone else . But the council - who are not by far perfect, were right to get the best financial deal for its citizens and not just for skyblues fans.

Yet the council ends up selling to another hedge fund and the taxpayer is losing out. So the narrative that the Wasps deal was a good deal is nonsense.

 

[fatso]

You haven't answered his point about the lease extension.

I wasn't privy to the discussions around a lease extention. In theory that would of significantly added to a value, but a value and a sale price are not the same thing.
As I've said, you need at least 2 bidders to achieve anything like a decent price.

 

[clint van damme]

I wasn't privy to the discussions around a lease extention. In theory that would of significantly added to a value, but a value and a sale price are not the same thing.
As I've said, you need at least 2 bidders to achieve anything like a decent price.

There was to need to extend the lease other than to help out an put of town rugby club that
they were balls deep in to

 

[oldfiver]

Competitively marketed to attract who exactly?

It was public knowledge that the arena was empty and for sale, anyone could have expressed an interest or made an offer.

It was costing ACL thousands of pounds a week to maintain, with no income streams.

Exactly how long should they have sat on it for while waiting for some mythical fairy godmother to come crawling out of the woodwork?

About as long as WASPs are now!

 

[oldfiver]

I wasn't privy to the discussions around a lease extention. In theory that would of significantly added to a value, but a value and a sale price are not the same thing.
As I've said, you need at least 2 bidders to achieve anything like a decent price.

The sale and extension were completed in the same Council meeting they hardly had time to go for a pee!

 

[joemercersaces]

Wasps played a European cup match at the Ricoh against Munster. Thousands came over from Ireland and spent a fortune. It seems that from then on the council wanted Wasps in the city and if that meant shafting CRFC and CCFC they didn’t care. It emerged some time ago that the council actively wooed Wasps long before originally admitted to. I strongly suspect that highly dubious secret meetings made secret deals and that’s why now the council are in for a penny in for a pound with their London buddies.

 

[MalcSB]

CCFC's actions may not have LEGALLY, prevented them from bidding, but there was no way they were going to be considered by the seller. (And yes, that's where it becomes a shit show)

As far as ACL/CCC/Higgs Trust were concerned, SISU had become untrustworthy, and the clubs announcement that they intended to build a new stadium, not to mention the renaging on a legal tenancy agreement, effectively gave the owners a reason to ignore them. (Hence no post sale legal action from SISU)

We can argue about the moral conduct of all concerned for as long as you like, but we are where we are.

Ironically, it looks like we could be entering another fight for the Arena ownership if Wasps can't find a sugar daddy very quickly.
And this time the council will have next to no say.
And it would be interesting to see what Wasps valuation of the Arena is, and what SISU would be prepared to pay, not to mention what other potential buyers could muddy the waters.

And so it wasnt competitively market despite their being two potential buyers. Surely if you are after the best price, you don’t exclude a potential buyer just because you don’t like them very much. And if SISU had put in the best bid, none of the other bollocks would have happened.

 

[MalcSB]

Tbf the whole world new we had left the stadium, anyone could of picked up the phone and contacted ACL or CCC if they were interested in bidding.
And Wasps had the right to request to have their business conducted in private.

I'm sure the reality was that CCC just wanted rid ASAP, and didn't give a fuck who bought it as long as it wasn't SISU.

The right to purchase a publicly owned asset in private. Surely not.

 

[fatso]

And so it wasnt competitively market despite their being two potential buyers. Surely if you are after the best price, you don’t exclude a potential buyer just because you don’t like them very much. And if SISU had put in the best bid, none of the other bollocks would have happened.

As I said, excluding CCFC from bidding is where it became a shit show. But its not illegal to exclude a bidder, especially when that bidder had wilfully broken a legally binding tenancy agreement with the seller.

And as we all know, relations with SISU and Ann Lucas etc were hardly conducive to doing business.

What is telling is that SISU didn't launch a legal challenge to stop the sale of the Arena on the grounds of discrimination.

 

[Nick]

CCFC's actions may not have LEGALLY, prevented them from bidding, but there was no way they were going to be considered by the seller. (And yes, that's where it becomes a shit show)

As far as ACL/CCC/Higgs Trust were concerned, SISU had become untrustworthy, and the clubs announcement that they intended to build a new stadium, not to mention the renaging on a legal tenancy agreement, effectively gave the owners a reason to ignore them. (Hence no post sale legal action from SISU)

We can argue about the moral conduct of all concerned for as long as you like, but we are where we are.

Ironically, it looks like we could be entering another fight for the Arena ownership if Wasps can't find a sugar daddy very quickly.
And this time the council will have next to no say.
And it would be interesting to see what Wasps valuation of the Arena is, and what SISU would be prepared to pay, not to mention what other potential buyers could muddy the waters.

Yeah how trustworthy have Wasps been?

 

[Rusty Trombone]

There was never any indication it was available with anything more than the 38 years remaining on the initial lease. In fact when it was suggested that to make it a viable purchase the freehold would be needed it was ridiculed.

IMO the 250 is, to all intents and purposes, not that far removed from owning the freehold. The only real difference is you can't just know the ground down to build houses or something like that, well I assume you can't with our council you never know. Personally I feel the 250 year lease rather than freehold was done to avoid disposal of assets procedure needing to be followed.

None of us have any idea who would have been interested with a 250 year lease on the table because that was never put on offer. We do know AEG previously expressed an interest in operating the complex so that's one potential bidder, NEC Group have been taking on new venues as both owners and operators so there's another potential buyer. Maybe with 250 years on offer someone who was interested in owning the club would have bid with a view to also purchasing the club.

You can't just say nobody else was interested in something nobody else knew was available.

https://www.ccfc.co.uk/contentassets/2ec0f8e40f044ad0a54d3635ef5fac67/council-hot_signed_2aug12.pdf

Just on this point about 'never any indication it was available with anything more than the 38 years remaining on the initial lease', the club knew that the lease could be extended to 125 years as this was what was going to happen as part of the original deal with the club. The link above is from the ccfc website and shows the heads of terms for the deal that eventually fell away, the lease was to be extended to 125 years.

 

[Great_Expectations]

Really not that into politics, and really didn’t know much more than surface level stuff about Maton until recently.

How the hell does someone like that become a Lord Major? And of one of the bigger cities in the UK too.

What an absolute embarrassment to the City and he looks and comes across like an absolute smug tosser.

Appreciate those tweets are dated but reading those have really pissed me off.

Why and how can you take pride in the suffering of the football team of “your” city.

 

[fatso]

The right to purchase a publicly owned asset in private. Surely not.

The negotiations with the bidder were private. NOT the availability for sale of the Arena. I think there's some confusion there.

And not all the value of the Arena was publicly owned, which muddies the waters still further.

Either way, the whole saga is a massive cluster fuck of epic proportions, which no one ultimately came out of well.
And it looks like it ain't over yet.

 

[Ashdown]

I think it was fairly clear after SISU started threatening individual council members that they would have sold to a consortium of Putin, Kim jong un and the Ayatollah rather than Joy Sepalla.
I wish I’d never heard that fucking name SISU or those creepy councillors had sold to an unstable bunch of rugger buggers but we are where we are.
I'll never forget Ann Lucas on the Midlands news ……stupid bitch !

 

[fatso]

Yeah how trustworthy have Wasps been?

Please, don't get me started on them cunts!!!

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

As I said, excluding CCFC from bidding is where it became a shit show. But its not illegal to exclude a bidder, especially when that bidder had wilfully broken a legally binding tenancy agreement with the seller.

And as we all know, relations with SISU and Ann Lucas etc were hardly conducive to doing business.

What is telling is that SISU didn't launch a legal challenge to stop the sale of the Arena on the grounds of discrimination.

But as you have stated - there was only one bidder then. The council then created a scenario where they couldn’t auction the arena, therefore not getting the best deal for tax payer

also conveniently forgetting ultimately it was down to the council we ended up with SISU