Lest we Forget !!! (2 Viewers)

Covstu · Nov 14, 2013

A lot of my family are from the military and have served in Iraq, Afgan etc (my uncle is over in Kandahar as we speak). I chose not too as I had the opportunity to be educated and took full advantage of this but this was down to people who fought for us all in WW1&2 which I will never forget.

The irony in saying I hope time catches up with the veterans but I don't believe in modern day wars and killing etc is unbelievable. We should never forget what these people did in the face of oppression for their country.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 14, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
You earlier stated that I could not choose which armed forces members & which wars I do or don't respect....

You're wrong.....I do not automatically respect every modern professional soldier who CHOOSES to earn his/her living by killing people.....especially as in modern times, only an "idiot" doesn't know that many of those being killed are innocent civilians....

Its quite straightforward really.

Well those that go & do it & live (or not!) to tell the tale ought to have your automatic respect! That they do what they do prevents people such as you being forced into what would eventually end up as a "fight for your life" scenario. Even in this day & age...suspected weakness leads to vulnerability (e.g. Falklands, Kuwait & recently "testing the water" forces that seek to steal democracy from the people Kenya).
And on your finally idiotic point - civilians in general are always the biggest losers in war. That has always been the case, whether it be paying the bill for it or paying with their lives...so YOU are WRONG - you cannot choose which you respect. As I said in an earlier post...war & the consequences have a strange effect on mind & actions.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 14, 2013

lordsummerisle said:
JHC does have a point with much that he says.

All this "support the troops", "Help for Heroes", and attacking of anybody who doesn't wear a poppy for being un-patriotic sits ill with me and has facistic undertones that surely undermines what the Second World War(in particular) was fought to avoid surely?

I have donated to HTH & the poppy fund...without advertising either by wearing the trinkets or whatever - & nobody has ever asked me any questions or made any accusations of any sort. If this has happened to you I guess you were unlucky.
But be brave...stand up to them. It's about choice & freedom (everything is relative!) at the of the day! Things our forces fight to protect.

covcity4life · Nov 14, 2013

bazza its great you have passion for the forces but please dont make out that because its tough out there its ok to excuse certain fuckups and tragedies. its hard to have respect for every individual who chooses to join army is all jimmy is saying. most of people in my year who fucked up g.c.s.e cited army as their next destination,that doesnt bode well for current forces.

but on other hand the majority will be brave, smart people.

not everything is black and white and good vs evil.

thats all anyone is saying,nothing else

smileycov · Nov 14, 2013

Then respect the job not the individual!

covcity4life · Nov 14, 2013

smileycov said:
Then respect the job not the individual!

which everyone has?

bigfatronssba · Nov 14, 2013

Hasn't this gone slightly off topic? It was about 600 INNOCENT Coventrians that died.

covcity4life · Nov 14, 2013

exactly

RIP to all victims of war past and present.

im out of this thread now!

SkyblueBazza · Nov 14, 2013

covcity4life said:
bazza its great you have passion for the forces but please dont make out that because its tough out there its ok to excuse certain fuckups and tragedies. its hard to have respect for every individual who chooses to join army is all jimmy is saying. most of people in my year who fucked up g.c.s.e cited army as their next destination,that doesnt bode well for current forces.

but on other hand the majority will be brave, smart people.

not everything is black and white and good vs evil.

thats all anyone is saying,nothing else

In war everyone fights for their life. The ones that literally take the fight to others knowing they might not come back gets respect. Those that take the fight to others with intent NOT to come back (eg Suicide bombers) get no respect...so that in mind I can understand the line of thought. Atrocities by disciplined armies such as those by Nazi Germany's...some just followed orders or face the bullet themselves...can be understood. It's those at the or near the top giving the orders that lose the respect in those circumstances.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 14, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
Hasn't this gone slightly off topic? It was about 600 INNOCENT Coventrians that died.

Still a refreshing change though. Gone off topic - but not down the usual route & there aren't many (non by me) insults or abusive posts.

skybluefred · Nov 14, 2013

Joy Division said:
Still shocking to see images of a flattened Coventry. As bad as this was we should not forget the German citizens had it a lot worse that we did, many thousands died as retribution for the attack on Coventry which still doesn't sit too well with me.

It sits extremely well with me,just a pity they left anything standing in Germany.Dictators like Hitler only understand one
language and that is flatten or kill anything that gets in your way.Well he picked the wrong enemy.

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 14, 2013

Wonderful monument unveiled in the old cathedral over the last 12 months or so as a memorial to all civilians killed during warfare - i think the story of our great city of Coventry is one of the most powerful stories of hope in the face of fear and blame and we should shout about it from the rooftops. Father forgive …….. May our city know the power of reconciliation that started between Coventry and Dresden and the waves are still spreading out across our broken world uniting enemies as friends.

Lest we forget and repeat past mistakes and cause untold misery to more and more innocent families - of course we honour their memories but let's do it by pursuing peace in our own lives, families, communities, our city, in our country and throughout our world as well as by buying a poppy, attending a remembrance service and certainly not by taking offence at someone not seeing things as we see them.

God bless friends

Flying Fokker · Nov 14, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
No offence...but we're hardly likely to ever forget about the 2 world wars in this country....its a peculiar fascination we Brits have...part of the British psyche is firmly rooted in the past & we do love a good old bit of nostalgia....

....As I said, no offence intended, but in a way, I'll be glad when old father time catches up with remaining veterans from WW2.....

Maybe then, as a nation, we can move on.

Oh well. Back to Call of Duty then. : (

TurkeyTrot · Nov 14, 2013

skybluefred said:
It sits extremely well with me,just a pity they left anything standing in Germany.Dictators like Hitler only understand one
language and that is flatten or kill anything that gets in your way.Well he picked the wrong enemy.

Hang about Fred, Dresden was bombed in retaliation, somewhere between 25'000 and 50'000 civilians were killed in those raids.

torchomatic · Nov 14, 2013

TurkeyTrot said:
Hang about Fred, Dresden was bombed in retaliation, somewhere between 25'000 and 50'000 civilians were killed in those raids.

Exactly. Fred showed his ignorance there.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 14, 2013

It's believed to be 25000 Turkey - terrible, savage loss of life, however the rebuilding of Dresden was helped by many many Britain's

ricohman · Nov 14, 2013

"They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind" i like that.

torchomatic · Nov 14, 2013

skybluefred said:
It sits extremely well with me,just a pity they left anything standing in Germany.Dictators like Hitler only understand one
language and that is flatten or kill anything that gets in your way.Well he picked the wrong enemy.

Deary me.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2

Flying Fokker · Nov 14, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Yeah..reading it back it doesn't sound great.....Apologies to all I offended.

I didn't mean any disrespect to those who fought....my Grandad took part in & survived the D-day invasions whilst my other Grandad was underground in a welsh mine working double shifts to help fuel the factories....

I was just trying to convey my hope that as time passes, whilst we'll never forget, perhaps some of the jingoism etc. that always accompanies such dates etc. will fade too.

It will never go. Memories pass from generation to generation. My uncle killed ss soldiers. I never knew until his relatives scattered his ashes. He too did d-day, El Alamein and the liberation of Holland. He worked in the Dutch mines after the war. 'THe mad Englishman' as he was affectionately known. Prior to that 2 of his uncles died in ww1.
[

bigfatronssba · Nov 14, 2013

What happened in Dresdon was terrible and possibly unnecessary, however it is important to remember who in that war started off the concept of total war.

Its easy for middle class intellectuals to cast judgement on those fighting for the world as we know it with the benefit of hindsight.

They knew the war had to be won at all costs, and had they not taken that approach its likely far more would have died.

If Germany had won, the world would have effectively ended. I shudder to think what life would be like now.

The summer of 1940 is up there with the Cuban missile crisis for points in which the destruction of the world come close.

So when your casting judgement on those that saved your arse, remember that.

Houchens Head · Nov 14, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
What happened in Dresdon was terrible and possibly unnecessary, however it is important to remember who in that war started off the concept of total war.

Its easy for middle class intellectuals to cast judgement on those fighting for the world as we know it with the benefit of hindsight.

They knew the war had to be won at all costs, and had they not taken that approach its likely far more would have died.

If Germany had won, the world would have effectively ended. I shudder to think what life would be like now.

The summer of 1940 is up there with the Cuban missile crisis for points in which the destruction of the world come close.

So when your casting judgement on those that saved your arse, remember that.

I remember the Cuban Missile crisis well. Scared the bejezzus outta me at the time. Every day in the news there was the threat of nuclear war. Kennedy did a great job to avert it.

Flying Fokker · Nov 15, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
What happened in Dresdon was terrible and possibly unnecessary, however it is important to remember who in that war started off the concept of total war.

Its easy for middle class intellectuals to cast judgement on those fighting for the world as we know it with the benefit of hindsight.

They knew the war had to be won at all costs, and had they not taken that approach its likely far more would have died.

If Germany had won, the world would have effectively ended. I shudder to think what life would be like now.

The summer of 1940 is up there with the Cuban missile crisis for points in which the destruction of the world come close.

So when your casting judgement on those that saved your arse, remember that.

Agreed, if we had been anywhere a hearts and minds approach we would have lost. Seeing some of the bomb hit target ratios is a bit of an eye opener.

As a weapon of war it was probably the only option, done in the knowledge that civilians would die but the will of the people would also be broken.....

The Japan outcome is a bit of a head scratch to me. Maybe it was more about supremacy? Or perhaps pragmatism due to communist murmurings?

Hobo · Nov 15, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
No offence...but we're hardly likely to ever forget about the 2 world wars in this country....its a peculiar fascination we Brits have...part of the British psyche is firmly rooted in the past & we do love a good old bit of nostalgia....

....As I said, no offence intended, but in a way, I'll be glad when old father time catches up with remaining veterans from WW2.....

Maybe then, as a nation, we can move on.

I am anti war and a pacifist at heart. However if I am not working I always attend the Remembrance Service in The Memorial Park. It is important to remember those who have lost their lives in conflict in all countries.

If you have ever attended the Service you will know it is not all about looking back. It is about our responsibility to safeguard the future and ensure it doesn't happen again.

Ashdown1 · Nov 15, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
What happened in Dresdon was terrible and possibly unnecessary, however it is important to remember who in that war started off the concept of total war.

Its easy for middle class intellectuals to cast judgement on those fighting for the world as we know it with the benefit of hindsight.

They knew the war had to be won at all costs, and had they not taken that approach its likely far more would have died.

If Germany had won, the world would have effectively ended. I shudder to think what life would be like now.

The summer of 1940 is up there with the Cuban missile crisis for points in which the destruction of the world come close.

So when your casting judgement on those that saved your arse, remember that.

Whilst I agree with most of your sentiments there, it is worth noting on an historical point that Hitler ordered the bombing of civilian areas only after the RAF had bombed civilian areas in Berlin and elsewhere, before that they were only attacking military targets. All that said, he was a bad ass and would surely have decided to follow that route sooner or later I suppose anyway.

Ashdown1 · Nov 15, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
What happened in Dresdon was terrible and possibly unnecessary, however it is important to remember who in that war started off the concept of total war.

Its easy for middle class intellectuals to cast judgement on those fighting for the world as we know it with the benefit of hindsight.

They knew the war had to be won at all costs, and had they not taken that approach its likely far more would have died.

If Germany had won, the world would have effectively ended. I shudder to think what life would be like now.

The summer of 1940 is up there with the Cuban missile crisis for points in which the destruction of the world come close.

So when your casting judgement on those that saved your arse, remember that.

Whilst I agree with most of your sentiments there, it is worth noting on an historical point that Hitler ordered the bombing of civilian areas only after the RAF had bombed civilian areas in Berlin and elsewhere, before that they were only attacking military targets. All that said, he was a bad ass and would surely have decided to follow that route sooner or later I suppose anyway.

bigfatronssba · Nov 15, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
Whilst I agree with most of your sentiments there, it is worth noting on an historical point that Hitler ordered the bombing of civilian areas only after the RAF had bombed civilian areas in Berlin and elsewhere, before that they were only attacking military targets. All that said, he was a bad ass and would surely have decided to follow that route sooner or later I suppose anyway.

Yes your right that did happen, and I know it doesn't make it any better but I'm pretty sure that was by accident. Not certain on that, just something I seem to remember from the world at war. I believe it was Munich, which was sacred to the Nazis, so Hitler went into one of his rages and we were on the receiving end.

Leamington Pete · Nov 15, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
....As I said, no offence intended, but in a way, I'll be glad when old father time catches up with remaining veterans from WW2.....

Maybe then, as a nation, we can move on.

This has got to be the most crass, idiotic and insensitive remark ever made on this forum. Thank god you weren't one of those fighting for us 80 years ago.

Houchens Head · Nov 15, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
....As I said, no offence intended, but in a way, I'll be glad when old father time catches up with remaining veterans from WW2.....

Maybe then, as a nation, we can move on.

Unbelievable statement! You should be ashamed of yourself for making these remarks. "No offence intended"? WHAT??? That was the most offensive remark I've ever read on these forums! Ever heard of Karma? Let's hope you get yours.

ajsccfc · Nov 15, 2013

I'm not sure citing karma and then wishing ill on someone is the best tact.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Nov 15, 2013

We certainly live in an age where it appears so easy to outrage don't we.....

.....I guess a few posters were so outraged by a poorly phrased comment on a football forum, they forgot how to read.....or they would have seen the apology a few posts down.

Anyhoo.....onward & upward....

Vot is your name.....don't tell him Pike.

covcity4life · Nov 15, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
We certainly live in an age where it appears so easy to outrage don't we.....

.....I guess a few posters were so outraged by a poorly phrased comment on a football forum, they forgot how to read.....or they would have seen the apology a few posts down.

Anyhoo.....onward & upward....

Vot is your name.....don't tell him Pike.

just say SISU OUT and majority will be your best mates again.

lordsummerisle · Nov 15, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
Yes your right that did happen, and I know it doesn't make it any better but I'm pretty sure that was by accident. Not certain on that, just something I seem to remember from the world at war. I believe it was Munich, which was sacred to the Nazis, so Hitler went into one of his rages and we were on the receiving end.

The targetting of Cities and civilians was very much a deliberate policy by Arthur "Bomber" Harris.

Most if it made no difference to the eventual outcome of the war, and became a personal vendetta of his to bomb every city in Germany out of existence.

Still, at least, unlike the Americans, Bomber Command managed to avoid bombing our own and Allied Troops with any great regularity.

As the joke in the Wehrmacht used to go:

"If the British are bombing we duck".

"If the Americans are bombing, everybody ducks".

SkyblueBazza · Nov 15, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
We certainly live in an age where it appears so easy to outrage don't we.....

.....I guess a few posters were so outraged by a poorly phrased comment on a football forum, they forgot how to read.....or they would have seen the apology a few posts down.

Anyhoo.....onward & upward....

Vot is your name.....don't tell him Pike.

Hope I have avoided coming across as "outraged" in my responses. I can assure you I am not...I accepted your initial "no offence" post in the spirit I think you intended - I do think your sentiments were a bit misguided though...& why I felt the need to respond how I did. If I thought it'd provoke the ensuing can of worms, I might not have bothered lol
Misguided or not - it was an opinion deserving consideration.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 15, 2013

covcity4life said:
just say SISU OUT and majority will be your best mates again.

Errr...yesterday you said "exactly

RIP to all victims of war past and present.

im out of this thread now!"

You just couldn't keep away though could you? Lol

jimmyhillsfanclub · Nov 15, 2013

SkyblueBazza said:
Hope I have avoided coming across as "outraged" in my responses. I can assure you I am not...I accepted your initial "no offence" post in the spirit I think you intended - I do think your sentiments were a bit misguided though...& why I felt the need to respond how I did. If I thought it'd provoke the ensuing can of worms, I might not have bothered lol
Misguided or not - it was an opinion deserving consideration.

No, I wasn't including you in the "outraged from Tunbridge Wells" brigade......its just some of the hyperbole from some of the later posters makes me chuckle I have to admit...

...as you stated in an earlier post, it made a welcome change to go off topic and not end up in the classic ACL v SISU bullshit....

I like a little forum discussion/debate/row every now & then....

...and I only got called "twat", "prick", "moron" & had a bad Karma spell put on me by a few posters.....so no harm done.

Until next time comrade....and remember, "they don't like it up 'em"

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