Michael Jackson (2 Viewers)

[Gazolba]

One of my favoutite bands is The Knack and they have some pretty racy lyrics in some of their songs.
They were actually censored on the radio and some of the Youtube videos have the censored versions.
The only thing I would say on this subject is I don't think you can judge actions in the past based on standards today.
The classic example would be Benny Hill.
He was a comedy genius (whether you liked him or not) but he was vilified because he did so much comedy that although perfectly acceptable at the time, would not be considered acceptable today.
As for Michael Jackson, it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that he was a paedophile and only expensive lawyers and victim pay-offs protected him. He was another Jimmy Savile, insulated by fame and wealth and hiding behind his 'love for children'.

 

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[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Having watched part one of the documentary I really can't believe these victims are making this up. It doesn't seems OTT. It seems measured, reflective and almost reluctant.

 

[Otis]

Having watched part one of the documentary I really can't believe these victims are making this up. It doesn't seems OTT. It seems measured, reflective and almost reluctant.

Felt exactly the same. Comes across as sincere, rational and honest and incredibly detailed given accounts too.

You can see the pain in the reflection, unless of course they are both absolutely brilliant actors.

I have totally bought the accounts.

Only one thing puzzled me and that was in terms of timeline. Were Jimmy and Wade seeing Michael Jackson at different time periods? They both seemed to talk in terms to spending long periods with the singer and doing so on a daily basis.

Don't think the documentary has made it too clear as to who was when, or whether they were both being abused at the same time.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Felt exactly the same. Comes across as sincere, rational and honest and incredibly detailed given accounts too.


Only one thing puzzled me and that was in terms of timeline. Were Jimmy and Wade seeing Michael Jackson at different time periods? They both seemed to point in terms to spending long periods with the singer and doing so on a daily basis.

Don't think the documentary has made it too clear as to who was when, or whether they were both being abused at the same time.

My wife says it was at different times. She concentrates better than me.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Did Jackson have relationships with young girls? So far in these documentaries it appear not . I know its about the two main victims but not any mention of such.

 

[ajsccfc]

While it's impossible to gauge the accuracy of the accounts, the way they put them across seems to be consistent with people who've been groomed, there's a fear and fondness still there.

This covers it quite well I think:

Writing in the Chicago Sun Times, Richard Roeper stated "Having seen the devastating and undeniably persuasive film, I can’t say with 100 percent certainty Jackson molested the alleged victims — but at the very least, the VERY least, we’re reminded of how bizarre it was for this man to have cultivated such close relationships with a number of boys, even as his legions of fans and his supporters rationalized it by saying Jackson was just like Peter Pan and he had the soul of a child and he was an innocent who didn’t want to grow up."

 

[ajsccfc]

Did Jackson have relationships with young girls? So far in these documentaries it appear not . I know its about the two main victims but not any mention of such.

I don't believe so. The accusers here and in the court cases and then the others who've claimed nothing untoward happened, entirely boys as far as I know

 

[Houchens Head]

I watched last nights piece and half of this evenings (nearly 4 hours is hard going!), and it's basically confirmed what I always believed.
Jackson was a nonce.

 

[ajsccfc]

The maker of the doc would like to make a follow-up with the two boys at the centre of the two trials but I'd be surprised if much came of that, they've both disappeared from the public eye and will probably see how Robson and Safechuck are regarded by some of the maddest Jackson fans and realise they're better off in anonymity.

The Martin Bashir documentary was the one that got me, 10 years after settling child abuse allegations out of court there he is holding hands cuddling up to a young child while being interviewed about who sleeps on the bed, the child who'd be the catalyst for the second case. Fucking hell

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Just got me wondering that if these child abuse accusations hold water whether we have to effectively delete his entire back catalogue as we did Gary Glitter. Can an artist's music ever override a crime? Not particularly a fan but we would lose maybe the Jackson 5 stuff, Thriller etc - his dance move videos (moonwalk). He was a megastar in the pop world. Difficult to erase all his hits from any kind of retrospective I would have thought.

I love the short stories of HG Wells but he held well dodgy views re eugenics. So my question is does the achievement of an artist still stand or do we wipe it from history because of their views or actions?

You can still buy 'Mein Kampf' on Amazon ffs!

What makes MJ allegations worthy of censoring MJs music (which incidentally is generally not to my taste) IF he would even ever be proven to have been a paedophile. He doesn't actively promote such horrors in his songs (unless there is hidden meanings as yet unearthed) so what is the big deal?

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[Houchens Head]

You can still buy 'Mein Kampf' on Amazon ffs!

What makes MJ allegations worthy of censoring MJs music (which incidentally is generally not to my taste) IF he would even ever be proven to have been a paedophile. He doesn't actively promote such horrors in his songs (unless there is hidden meanings as yet unearthed) so what is the big deal?

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Didn't he once release "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles"??

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Didn't he once release "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles"??

That wouldn't be to my taste either! Lol

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[Nick]

What channel is it on?

 

[ajsccfc]

Channel 4 Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson and Me - On Demand - All 4

 

[Johnnythespider]

The maker of the doc would like to make a follow-up with the two boys at the centre of the two trials but I'd be surprised if much came of that, they've both disappeared from the public eye and will probably see how Robson and Safechuck are regarded by some of the maddest Jackson fans and realise they're better off in anonymity.

The Martin Bashir documentary was the one that got me, 10 years after settling child abuse allegations out of court there he is holding hands cuddling up to a young child while being interviewed about who sleeps on the bed, the child who'd be the catalyst for the second case. Fucking hell

Hiding in plain sight ?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I remember watching the Bashir interview and thought during that MJ was probably guilty. But with the interviews with him I was asking myself "is that man actually mentally capable of understanding what he's done is wrong?" He came across as essentially a small child in that. I was also there wondering if he himself hadn't be abused when he was younger and that was why he couldn't understand it was wrong. I know US schools do/did an IQ test or similar when the kids are in junior school or something but MJ was home schooled so I doubt there's any record of his intelligence levels.

Doesn't make it right but it was a question I asked myself

Difference this time and why I think it's had more impact is that it's the victims side.

 

[stupot07]

That was difficult viewing. 100% believe their story, always suspected he was a paedophile. What a vile human being.

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[Forever_Blue]

Not really, regardless of how broken a family. Alarm bells should be ringing when there's a strange man in his 30's asking to sleep in the bed of your 13 year old.

The parents were groomed along with the kids, brainwashed and showered with kindness and gifts, plus he was probably the most famous music star on the planet. Basically they had the wool pulled over the eyes well and truely.

 

[Nick]

The parents were groomed along with the kids, brainwashed and showered with kindness and gifts, plus he was probably the most famous music star on the planet. Basically they had the wool pulled over the eyes well and truely.

If a celeb turns up at my house with gifts to sleep in the same bed as my child then they get kicked up and down the street.

They should be charged too.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Stevie wonder was asked about all of this and he said he’d seen nothing

 

[Forever_Blue]

If a celeb turns up at my house with gifts to sleep in the same bed as my child then they get kicked up and down the street.

They should be charged too.

The grooming took place over months, he didn’t just turn up and ask if he could stop overnight.

 

[Nick]

The grooming took place over months, he didn’t just turn up and ask if he could stop overnight.

Even more obvious then, not fit to be in charge of kids.

Send them down for pimping their kids out

 

[Houchens Head]

Stevie wonder was asked about all of this and he said he’d seen nothing

I bought Stevie Wonder a cheese grater for Christmas once. He said it was the best book he'd ever read!

 

[tommydazzle]

The censorship is picking up apace - The Simpsons team have removed the Jacko episode. It seems that the art can't be separated from the artist for some.

 

[Gazolba]

Did Jackson have relationships with young girls? So far in these documentaries it appear not . I know its about the two main victims but not any mention of such.

No, in fact when he decided he'd like children of his own, he paid a (white) woman to be artificially inseminated.

 

[dutchman]

I was also there wondering if he himself hadn't be abused when he was younger and that was why he couldn't understand it was wrong.

Just from memory, I believe at one time he claimed that he and other members of the Jackson family were. It's not an excuse.

I know US schools do/did an IQ test or similar when the kids are in junior school or something but MJ was home schooled so I doubt there's any record of his intelligence levels.

There is no direct correlation between IQ levels and sexual morality.

 

[richnrg]

The maker of the doc would like to make a follow-up with the two boys at the centre of the two trials but I'd be surprised if much came of that, they've both disappeared from the public eye and will probably see how Robson and Safechuck are regarded by some of the maddest Jackson fans and realise they're better off in anonymity.

The Martin Bashir documentary was the one that got me, 10 years after settling child abuse allegations out of court there he is holding hands cuddling up to a young child while being interviewed about who sleeps on the bed, the child who'd be the catalyst for the second case. Fucking hell

he looks a lot like Naboo in that picture.

 

[Nick]

Watched some of the first one last night.

It reminds me far too much of that Netflix documentary.

Why is the mum all smiley and happy about her memories of him? He had been abusing her kid FFS.

 

[rob9872]

I reckon Jarvis Cocker had half a clue

 

[Houchens Head]

I reckon Jarvis Cocker had half a clue

I think it was about that "Jarvis incident" time, that I had my doubts. I started wondering why he (Jarvis) would put on such a display?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Just from memory, I believe at one time he claimed that he and other members of the Jackson family were. It's not an excuse.


There is no direct correlation between IQ levels and sexual morality.

I'm not saying it excuses it - far from it - but if you have someone with a poor intellectual level who has experienced abuse themselves (and they are more likely to be abused) then they will find it harder to comprehend becoming an abuser is wrong because for them it's just normal behaviour.

It is possible to be both a victim and a criminal.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It is possible to be both a victim and a criminal.

Even a smooth one

 

[Houchens Head]

I'm not saying it excuses it - far from it - but if you have someone with a poor intellectual level who has experienced abuse themselves (and they are more likely to be abused) then they will find it harder to comprehend becoming an abuser is wrong because for them it's just normal behaviour.

It is possible to be both a victim and a criminal.

I kind of get what you're saying, but I don't see Jackson as someone with a poor intellectual level. He wrote a lot of songs, made millions of dollars and knew the ways of the world of fame. Hardly a victim?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I kind of get what you're saying, but I don't see Jackson as someone with a poor intellectual level. He wrote a lot of songs, made millions of dollars and knew the ways of the world of fame. Hardly a victim?

It is a question I've asked myself, but I think he'd have to be one of the best actors on the planet to express that level of immaturity and naivety in the documentaries.

He did write a lot of songs but also had the best producers etc in the world available to him from a ridiculously early age and the wealth to do things others may well have liked to but didn't have the means to do so. It's also quite possible for someone to be an absolute genius at one thing and monumentally stupid in others. A lot of chess Grandmasters can barely function on society - how often have you heard the phrase "all the brains but no common sense". There's a lot of people with money out there that are monumentally stupid.

I might be wrong, and even if I'm not it doesn't excuse it, but for all his musical talemt I really don't think Jackson was a very bright individual at all.

 

[Houchens Head]

It is a question I've asked myself, but I think he'd have to be one of the best actors on the planet to express that level of immaturity and naivety in the documentaries.

He did write a lot of songs but also had the best producers etc in the world available to him from a ridiculously early age and the wealth to do things others may well have liked to but didn't have the means to do so. It's also quite possible for someone to be an absolute genius at one thing and monumentally stupid in others. A lot of chess Grandmasters can barely function on society - how often have you heard the phrase "all the brains but no common sense". There's a lot of people with money out there that are monumentally stupid.

I might be wrong, and even if I'm not it doesn't excuse it, but for all his musical talemt I really don't think Jackson was a very bright individual at all.

Good points.