Munich another shooting (6 Viewers)

martcov · Jul 25, 2016

Astute said:
Sorry but I can't ignore such biased rubbish.

Yes we should help. But that doesn't mean a free ticket for everyone who wants one. And those with mental health problems should be watched carefully at least to make sure that everyone else are a lot more safer. It isn't good enough to be able to say that deaths and murders were down to mental health problems so are not a problem.

Who claims that? I have only claimed that some terrifying attacks are not terrorist attacks. Munich and Reutlingen. Ansbach, I don't know yet how it will be classed.

Mental Health seems to be a big problem- not only with people with erhnic backgrounds. All people with these sort of conditions should be in treatment ( they were or had been im 2 cases). The problem seems to be a false diagnosis- i.e. they were not counted as being about to kick off. How can you guarantee they get properly diagnosed?

martcov · Jul 25, 2016

Nick said:
The home countries don't want the criminals, surely that says something? What happens then?

Exactly the problem. We can only - in the case of North Africa - apply Economic pressure- or, as in Turkey, throw money at them. What do you with a war zone?

martcov · Jul 25, 2016

Nick said:
Exactly!

People are coming from countries where they have seen all sorts of messed up stuff, they have grown up with it being the norm to see murder and violence. When you put them into a country where that isn't the norm it will cause issues won't it sometimes?

Is it their fault if they have mental issues, of course not. It still doesn't mean it's ok to throw them into the community to crack on. Especially if they are already known, to allow them to carry on.

So what then? Throw them back into the war and say 'fuck you'?

Astute · Jul 25, 2016

martcov said:
So what then? Throw them back into the war and say 'fuck you'?

So what then? Let everyone in and hope for the best?

You are happy to have open borders and happy to accuse people of being racist if they want steps put in place to make others safe.

You must be able to admit that major changes need to be made without accusing yourself of being a racist.

Nick · Jul 25, 2016

martcov said:
So what then? Throw them back into the war and say 'fuck you'?

No, just let them roam the streets and then call everybody a racist who has issues with it. Failing that, just say "ah they had mental health issues".

For example the UK I bet has millions with a form of mental illness. Whether it is OCD, severe depression etc.

What happens with their treatment if there are suddenly an influx of others who also need help?

It is all well and good trying to save the world and everybody, it isn't as simple as giving everybody a cuddle and saying "come in" and it being ok though is it?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jul 25, 2016

Nick said:
No, just let them roam the streets and then call everybody a racist who has issues with it. Failing that, just say "ah they had mental health issues".

For example the UK I bet has millions with a form of mental illness. Whether it is OCD, severe depression etc.

What happens with their treatment if there are suddenly an influx of others who also need help?

It is all well and good trying to save the world and everybody, it isn't as simple as giving everybody a cuddle and saying "come in" and it being ok though is it?

You've hit the nail on the head there Nick.

The denial that any of this is not related to any of the attacks we're talking about is also extremely embarrassing.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jul 25, 2016

The fact is, 3 attacks in the last week have been carried out by people of a refugee/asylum seeker status. Whether the problem is indeed mental health, or post-war trauma, or Islam - the point still stands. If there were no refugee's how many of these attacks would have happened?

You guessed right, it would be zero.

So whilst the purpose of that point was not to say that we shouldn't be helping refugee's (we should be), you cannot just allow any old person to walk into Europe en masse and not only expect there to be no problems, but then also deny it too.

A large amount do want to live a better life, do want to give something to their children so they can have a future, but there is also a contingent that have no inclination to do so whatsoever and are causing trouble. I spend a lot of time in Hamburg and it's a mess. The same things that happened in Cologne happened there, and is still regularly happening. Rape, violent attacks, spitting on women. Man, I was outside a bar recently and two young blokes ran up to a lone bouncer and absolutely kicked this shit out of him, no provocation at all. I went to help and my friends over there held me back. They said 'It's just the migrants, this shit is happening everywhere now' and seemed to have completely accepted it.

- I know this is only one example, but even if the percentage of 'naughty refugee' is at 1%, (there have been a reported 2 million refugees arrived in Europe now) that's 200000 potentially violent individuals, murderers, rapists, petty criminals, and religious fanatics that have been unleashed within a tolerant mostly peaceful western society.

I don't care if a Polish girl had a boyfriend and rejected him. It happens all the time, and the sensible way to get over it is to go and have a few pints or go away for a bit. In no western society is it fucking acceptable to go and murder her. Refugee's who have suffered need help and support, mainly the children, women, and with that families who are willing to adapt a little bit to start a fresh life. I know spitting on a woman (albeit disgusting) is not as bad as detonating a bomb and there is a difference between that crime and actual religiously inspired terrorism. However, you simply cannot let in boat loads of 20-30 year old young males with completely different values and then deny they are even remotely responsible when they start causing problems over a broad scale such as this.

The only way this situation is going to get better is when people (including many corners of the media) accept there is a problem, and try to actively come up with ways to deal with it. This goes hand in hand with folding away the 'racist' card that is doing so well in making this issue a whole lot worse.

dutchman · Jul 25, 2016

martcov said:
We are off the EU now because some people think we're sailing off into a bright future.

Things are looking a lot brighter in England right now than they are in Germany, France or Belgium!

martcov · Jul 25, 2016

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
The fact is, 3 attacks in the last week have been carried out by people of a refugee/asylum seeker status. Whether the problem is indeed mental health, or post-war trauma, or Islam - the point still stands. If there were no refugee's how many of these attacks would have happened?

You guessed right, it would be zero.

So whilst the purpose of that point was not to say that we shouldn't be helping refugee's (we should be), you cannot just allow any old person to walk into Europe en masse and not only expect there to be no problems, but then also deny it too.

A large amount do want to live a better life, do want to give something to their children so they can have a future, but there is also a contingent that have no inclination to do so whatsoever and are causing trouble. I spend a lot of time in Hamburg and it's a mess. The same things that happened in Cologne happened there, and is still regularly happening. Rape, violent attacks, spitting on women. Man, I was outside a bar recently and two young blokes ran up to a lone bouncer and absolutely kicked this shit out of him, no provocation at all. I went to help and my friends over there held me back. They said 'It's just the migrants, this shit is happening everywhere now' and seemed to have completely accepted it.

- I know this is only one example, but even if the percentage of 'naughty refugee' is at 1%, (there have been a reported 2 million refugees arrived in Europe now) that's 200000 potentially violent individuals, murderers, rapists, petty criminals, and religious fanatics that have been unleashed within a tolerant mostly peaceful western society.

I don't care if a Polish girl had a boyfriend and rejected him. It happens all the time, and the sensible way to get over it is to go and have a few pints or go away for a bit. In no western society is it fucking acceptable to go and murder her. Refugee's who have suffered need help and support, mainly the children, women, and with that families who are willing to adapt a little bit to start a fresh life. I know spitting on a woman (albeit disgusting) is not as bad as detonating a bomb and there is a difference between that crime and actual religiously inspired terrorism. However, you simply cannot let in boat loads of 20-30 year old young males with completely different values and then deny they are even remotely responsible when they start causing problems over a broad scale such as this.

The only way this situation is going to get better is when people (including many corners of the media) accept there is a problem, and try to actively come up with ways to deal with it. This goes hand in hand with folding away the 'racist' card that is doing so well in making this issue a whole lot worse.

200000 is 10% not 1%. Slight exageration.

No one is denying anything- just correcting things ( see above as a classic example ).

The point about the relationship Crime - killing the girl because she rejects you - is that he was not a terrorist, nor was the Munich kid. As for it not being acceptable in Western society- yes true - but violence because of rejection happens all the time and there are murders like this in the UK. It is not terrorism and not confined to Syrians. Having no refugees doesn't alter that.

Many have trauma and carry it around in their head. One problem about helping them is that there are no e.g. Farsi or Arabische speaking therapists.

As to sending them home if they have been in trouble, the Ansbach guy couldnt be sent to a war zone, so he was going to Bulgaria - he thought he had nothing more to live for and decided to take his life and others with him. So that didn't work out well.

People are trying to make things work. I asked some on here what they would do. The answer is to say I am deflecting or am bias.

Just pointing out things amongst the Hysteria. Germany is still a safe place to live statistically and it is by no means a mess.

martcov · Jul 25, 2016

dutchman said:
Things are looking a lot brighter in England right now than they are in Germany, France or Belgium!

Really? We have low crime, especially gun crime, the prison population is declining because of a lack of violent prisoners. The economy is strong and Business leaders don't think Brexit will be a problem for now. Low unemployment. Everything rosy in England? PMI figures showed a drop in confidence levels. Sorry, I'm deflecting.

Nick · Jul 25, 2016

martcov said:
Really? We have low crime, especially gun crime, the prison population is declining because of a lack of violent prisoners.

Maybe it is because they have axes and aren't in prison, they are roaming the streets?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jul 25, 2016

martcov said:
200000 is 10% not 1%. Slight exageration.

I did that on purpose to see if (and to show) yourself, or any of the other people taking your corner, would be more focused on trying to play down the issue or deflect what I was saying based on a digit, rather than actively admit there was an issue. Man, you even made it your opening line. 1% would still mean 20,000 scumbags released onto the streets, but we know that you won't acknowledge that, let alone find it a problem.

You just walked right into the trap and proved my point I'm afraid.

martcov · Jul 25, 2016

Ansbach is probably a terrorist attack- or at least he claims to be ISIS and they claim him. De Maziere says it could be either his own suicide plus taking others , or an ISIS attack. De Maziere said he was labil and had already tried twice to kill himself. I guess a bit of both,

martcov · Jul 25, 2016

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I did that on purpose to see if (and to show) yourself, or any of the other people taking your corner, would be more focused on trying to play down the issue or deflect what I was saying based on a digit, rather than actively admit there was an issue. Man, you even made it your opening line. 1% would still mean 20,000 scumbags released onto the streets, but we know that you won't acknowledge that, let alone find it a problem.

You just walked right into the trap and proved my point I'm afraid.

Or you are lying. I'll never know.

You have not proved your point as I don't know how you made your calculation. How can you, or I, come to the precise figure of 1% or 20000 scumbags?

You just made the figure up and added a little story to get you out of your first mistake.

Next you'll be quoting Eurovision Song Contest as proof of something or other- others do.

Astute · Jul 25, 2016

martcov said:
Ansbach is probably a terrorist attack- or at least he claims to be ISIS and they claim him. De Maziere says it could be either his own suicide plus taking others , or an ISIS attack. De Maziere said he was labil and had already tried twice to kill himself. I guess a bit of both,

It was a terrorist attack. He pledged his allegiance to IS. He tried to get into where he would have killed lots of people with the bomb he had. He detonated it outside when he got stopped from getting in.

So do you find it acceptable that a lot of French and Germans have lost their lives to terrorism recently while people like yourself make excuses for them and say that they should be allowed in unchecked like they are now?

Once Turkey join the EU it will become a bloodbath. And no more crap that it won't happen because the fast track is on.

CCFC Germany · Jul 25, 2016

Nick said:
Ah ok, I just don't see the logic in "there are already sex offenders and dangerous people here, why bother checking and stopping people who may also be from coming into the country".

Who said people should not be checked ?

CCFC Germany · Jul 25, 2016

People talking about Germany with all their knowledge coming from the Guardian and the Sun.
It's getting interesting now. :happy:

Astute · Jul 25, 2016

CCFC Germany said:
Who said people should not be checked ?

Those who have called me racist previously for not wanting open borders for starters. If all borders are open how are you supposed to check anyone?

Astute · Jul 25, 2016

CCFC Germany said:
People talking about Germany with all their knowledge coming from the Guardian and the Sun.
It's getting interesting now. :happy:

How do you know about the Sun and Guardian? You must read them. I certainly don't.

kdrinkell · Jul 25, 2016

CCFC Germany said:
People talking about Germany with all their knowledge coming from the Guardian and the Sun.
It's getting interesting now. :happy:

I thought it was The Sun and the Daily Mail

Astute · Jul 25, 2016

kdrinkell said:
I thought it was The Sun and the Daily Mail

It can't be. Our fellow German supporters will tell you that they are never wrong

Gazolba · Jul 25, 2016

'Another' is becoming slightly redundant.

Captain Dart · Jul 25, 2016

CCFC Germany said:
People talking about Germany with all their knowledge coming from the Guardian and the Sun.
It's getting interesting now. :happy:

Other sources exist.

martcov · Jul 26, 2016

Astute said:
It was a terrorist attack. He pledged his allegiance to IS. He tried to get into where he would have killed lots of people with the bomb he had. He detonated it outside when he got stopped from getting in.

So do you find it acceptable that a lot of French and Germans have lost their lives to terrorism recently while people like yourself make excuses for them and say that they should be allowed in unchecked like they are now?

Once Turkey join the EU it will become a bloodbath. And no more crap that it won't happen because the fast track is on.

I don't make excuses, I just point out the facts as I know them.

The refugees in Ansbach and Reutlingen had been checked when they applied for asylum. But what can you check when they come from a war Zone? Only the European Data base?

Turkey won't get into the EU now. Fast track will end up in a siding- if it exists. Negotiations have been going on for years.

They are not being allowed in unchecked now. More people are on the border and they are entering finger prints into a central data base.
But, as I say, how far can you control when a war is going on?

A propros control. We have to carry ID with us at all times and can be detained if we don't have it. How come you don't have ID cards when there are so many dodgy people in Britain? It was the same papers that were on about our liberties then that are now claiming there are no controls in Europe.

Ansbach is a terrorist attack by a man who wanted to commit suicide anyway and had tried twice before on his own. Doesn't help the victims though. It means that it is hard to spot people like that as they are not usually part of an Organisation.

martcov · Jul 26, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Other sources exist.

Yes, but sources like this report what the Bavarian minister said and not what the German Federal minister said. They don't lie, but don't mention the bits that don't fit their agenda. De Maziere said that he wouldn't go a hundred pro cent on the ISIS claim, or pure suicide, but rather " a bit of both ' - meaning, as I see it - he wanted to commit suicide anyway and decided to do it now and claim ISIS because he would go out with 'fame'.

Not an excuse for him doing it, but he is probably a lone wolf - meaning hard to spot. The Investigation is ongoing.

De Maziere said that they are currently investigating 59 people for Islamic or Salifist connections, but most investigations turn out to be nothing - and that in relation to hundreds of thousands of refugees puts it into perspective.

CCFC Germany · Jul 26, 2016

Astute said:
Those who have called me racist previously for not wanting open borders for starters. If all borders are open how are you supposed to check anyone?

But the borders aren''t "open" everywhere.

Astute · Jul 26, 2016

CCFC Germany said:
But the borders aren''t "open" everywhere.

How many EU countries have border controls like we do in the UK?

Astute · Jul 26, 2016

martcov said:
De Maziere said that they are currently investigating 59 people for Islamic or Salifist connections, but most investigations turn out to be nothing - and that in relation to hundreds of thousands of refugees puts it into perspective.

It certainly does. So out of hundreds of thousands of people they only investigated 59.

It is so easy to get anyone into the EU to attack it's citizens. Half of Syrians in Turkey get to stay in the EU if the other half are sent back. Syria isn't a safe country.

Astute · Jul 26, 2016

martcov said:
Ansbach is a terrorist attack by a man who wanted to commit suicide anyway and had tried twice before on his own. Doesn't help the victims though. It means that it is hard to spot people like that as they are not usually part of an Organisation.

So you admit that nobody in the EU is safe under the present EU migrant regulations?

Astute · Jul 26, 2016

martcov said:
Turkey won't get into the EU now. Fast track will end up in a siding- if it exists. Negotiations have been going on for years.

The UK recently paid £568m towards the cost of Turkeys fast track entrance to the EU. Tory MP'S called Cameron a liar when he said there was no fast track. It might not be for a few years yet. But it certainly won't be as long as you and Cameron make it out to be.

Wyken Sky Blue · Jul 26, 2016

Astute said:
How many EU countries have border controls like we do in the UK?

Not sure but would be interesting to see EU immigration figures to the UK compared with the rest of Europe.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

CCFC Germany · Jul 26, 2016

I'm curious how you thought about fighting IRA attacks back in the days.
Ship all Irish to Australia ?
And they could not be prevented, although there have been border controls etc.

Astute · Jul 26, 2016

CCFC Germany said:
I'm curious how you thought about fighting IRA attacks back in the days.
Ship all Irish to Australia ?
And they could not be prevented, although there have been border controls etc.

I'm curious why you think this is relevant.

Captain Dart · Jul 26, 2016

martcov said:
Yes, but sources like this report what the Bavarian minister said and not what the German Federal minister said. They don't lie, but don't mention the bits that don't fit their agenda. De Maziere said that he wouldn't go a hundred pro cent on the ISIS claim, or pure suicide, but rather " a bit of both ' - meaning, as I see it - he wanted to commit suicide anyway and decided to do it now and claim ISIS because he would go out with 'fame'.

Not an excuse for him doing it, but he is probably a lone wolf - meaning hard to spot. The Investigation is ongoing.

De Maziere said that they are currently investigating 59 people for Islamic or Salifist connections, but most investigations turn out to be nothing - and that in relation to hundreds of thousands of refugees puts it into perspective.

My source was a retweet of DAESH propaganda from their news agency.

martcov · Jul 26, 2016

Astute said:
It certainly does. So out of hundreds of thousands of people they only investigated 59.

It is so easy to get anyone into the EU to attack it's citizens. Half of Syrians in Turkey get to stay in the EU if the other half are sent back. Syria isn't a safe country.

They are currently investigating 59 based on information they have received. Mostly it Leads to nothing in these cases. They have no reason to investigate all innocent people- only if they receive information. Maybe you should become the new Führer and place everyone who is Muslim ( or maybe brown) in a camp? That way we would all be safe....?

Munich another shooting (6 Viewers)

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