skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It’s mental health. It’s not a one size fits all thing even within the same illness, everything is on a spectrum.
Nottingham Serious Incident (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sick Boy
- Start date
Grendel
Well-Known Member
You must be suffering from amnesia Tony
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
All you've posted there is that you have a friend that has a mental health issue. One you've got a diagnosis you are a lot more privy to understanding your behaviours, what trigger them, and what you need to do to stay well. Of course flair ups can happen, of course things can go wrong. No one is also arguing that the cuts don't make things worse. The point is that there is line where responsibility goes to the person with the diagnosis. Whether that is therapy, cutting unhealthy people out of your life, keeping a stress-free job - once you are aware that you need to look after yourself, the person with the sole responsibility of that is you.
If someone is younger and has a manic or psychotic episode with no previous diagnosis or signs, you could argue that the defence might have half an argument. This isn't that though.
I really don't know how you're still not getting this. The man murdered three people violently, and tried to murder another three on top of that. He had a diagnosis, had help, was given medication, and on several turns refused to follow the necessary steps to stay well. As I said before, that isn't diminished responsibility, that's more or less the opposite. Your desperation to keep defending this man is disturbing.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Yeah I don't really want to go into detail, but I do know for a cast-iron FACT that expecting somebody with paranoid schizophrenia to make a rational choice about their medication or treatment is asking too much on occasion. I also know for a cast iron FACT that support networks ain't what they used to be... and they've never been particularly great tbh.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
It seems to me that it's just any excuse possible to try and make this guy unaccountable. Like I said earlier, there could be more of a debate if he was undiagnosed to this point, or if the people desperately wanting him to get off the murder charges appeared to come across as balanced rather than seeing him as some sort of victim to the system and also going hard-line political.
People with schizophrenia may struggle to make the right decisions sometimes, but we are talking about continuous neglect of the anti-psychotic medication, refusing help, and then consequently multiple homicide here. You have to draw the line somewhere. Whatever labels they want to put on it, he should never ever be allowed out in a public setting ever again.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
No shifting of blame or excuses here, just pointed out a couple of FACTS
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
To coin a phrase that gets used a lot at the moment, this didn’t happen in a vacuum. The details are still coming out and the truth seems to be that both Nottingham police and now Leicester police missed opportunities to detain him and in the case of the Nottingham Police deliberately lied to the families about why that didn’t happen. He did what he did, no one is questioning that despite your rhetoric. Maligning and belittling mental health issues in the wider context including how it is or isn’t dealt with is frankly pathetic behaviour. I bet you even know someone who’s dealing with mental health issues.
Nick
Administrator
Im belittling a multiple murderer and little who are trying to play what he did down.
There are millions of people with issues who don't randomly go on a rampage.
An under the skin like a contraceptive?
robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
Correct.
This thread is a very sad read indeed. Clearly people on here have never been unfortunate enough to have someone close to them with paranoid schizophrenia and it shows. Guy thinks MI5 are after him and that he’s being controlled with remote controls and people expect that person to be able to take medication consistently
The failing here is with the police and the mental health services. To be sectioned and then released so many times when he had demonstrated he was a clear danger to the public is a huge failure.
Of course absolutely tragic for the victims families and the worst type of situation because the sentence/punishment will never seem enough or just.
Reminded myself why I try and stay out of off-topic!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Heads should roll - but they will not
Nottingham attacks: Review of killer's care finds 'a series of errors'
The families of Valdo Calocane's victims say the report "demonstrates gross, systematic failures".
www.bbc.co.uk
OffenhamSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
They had him in their care, then they let him slip through their fingers, probably through being over-stretched rather than lazy, but you never can tell. Horrific. The public inquiry can't come soon enough.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No suggestion being over stretched had anything to do with it. The report actually accuses the health care trust of deliberately misleading people and not including key elements regarding how dangerous he was.
On Panorama last night a clinical expert said he had never seen a report describe someone as "likely to kill if released" and it was deliberately ignored.
Nick
Administrator
What did they gain from misleading? Did it mean less paperwork from them or something?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
One assumes they did not know what to do with him and sectioning him was a more difficult route
He admitted he lied about voices in his head and would not take medication. When he was released a warrant had already been issued for an arrest for assaulting a police officer. In 2020 a doctor warned he could kill if released.
Even though he clearly had no capacity to be rational his request to not allow health services to talk to his family was granted
Absolutely Nick, personally I think its time we had asylums once more for these dangerous types….obviously not quite as severe in nature as the Victorian institutions but somewhere that they can receive constant care and monitoring, rather than being dumped into society whilst the authorities hope for the best.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Awful
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They should but they won't. And if anyone does get fired it will be someone low down who isn't actually responsible. The management who have made it impossible to provide effective care will close ranks and protect one another.Heads should roll - but they will not
Nottingham attacks: Review of killer's care finds 'a series of errors'
The families of Valdo Calocane's victims say the report "demonstrates gross, systematic failures".www.bbc.co.uk
The quote from the chief exec of SANE stood out for me. Absolutely spot on and I think a lot of people don't appreciate just how under resourced mental health is. Its easy to complain when something happens and it turns out the person was known to mental health services but nobody wants to put the resources in to making things better.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
My ex worked in mental health with people likely to offend. There would regularly be people referred to them as having potential for very serious crimes but there was no capacity for them in the system and when this was flagged to management absolutely nothing was done about it.
Well that's not strictly true, they would regularly get a response saying they would be fired if they raised their concerns to the media or went above managements head to try and get things improved.
Of course every time someone on a waiting list or in treatment attacked someone the blame was always placed on 'failings in the service' and passed on to the front line workers who were repeatedly flagging up that the service was ridiculously under-resourced and not fit for purpose.
Mental health services were absolutely decimated in Cameron's 'not a top down reorganisation', so many services were merged into each other or shut down completely and nothing has been done to improve things since.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
We have them and conditions in them are absolutely horrific. Yet when anyone gets sent to such a facility people complain that they've been 'let off'.
The problem is they are all over capacity and its considered a last resort so you have people waiting years for treatment in the community before that can be assessed as insufficient for their needs and the publics safety.
Well then we need more and better facilities. We can’t have dangerous psychopaths roaming around the streets, before some trigger sends them over the edge.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I really think we completely misunderstood the importance and pivotal roll mental health services play in society. Ultimately it was the NHS, police and prison services that have had to pick up the pieces. All of which was on the end of cuts if not in actual terms certainly in real terms. Ironically there’s some evidence to suggest that cutting 10K police officers might have actually worked if mental health services hadn’t been cut. Reinstating mental health services might have been money better spent than reinstating 10k police officers. Reinstating police officers is window dressing that’s easier to sell politically though.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
What a surprise - it’s political and the governments fault
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
What a surprise - I post in agreement with someone and you jump straight on my post for the sake of jumping on my post and evident by you ignoring the original post. What a pathetic little man you are.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Strange response
I don’t blame cuts - I blame the incompetence of the people involved in the decision making process that allowed this person to walk the streets.
rob9872
Well-Known Member
rob9872
Well-Known Member
Actually typed this with you in mind Tony, knowing that you'd be along to link it. So so predictable.
You're not even dislikable, although ironically greyer than John Major.
Not to mention the millions of extra people we’ve ‘gained’ over the last 20 years to add to the burden…..
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
There are obviously individuals and systems at fault, the government is accountable for the system
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
God your life must be empty. Have you considered finding a hobby? Train spotting sounds ideal for you. You clearly enjoy putting yourself in a situation hoping for something to happen so you can tick something off in your book. Not much difference to what you do by stalking me but at least you’ll be getting some fresh air while you’re doing it.