Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Wikipedia was updated within 2 minutes, but they screwed it up and it said "died aged Expression Error: Unrecognised punctuation character"{"."
One of those true 'where were you when...' moments (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter CJ_covblaze
- Start date
Wikipedia was updated within 2 minutes, but they screwed it up and it said "died aged Expression Error: Unrecognised punctuation character"{"."
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
It's fair to say that most of Seth Macfarlane's comedy success lies in tapping into guilty truths
George Osbourne: "..and I remember all of the protest concert's that were going on...I mean, I didn't go to any of the concerts, but..."
No, George, of course you didn't...
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
He did use I un-peaceful means too. He led got the ANC to carry the armed fight early on. He was a clever man too though & saw that it would not work. His people would in the main simply be slaughtered. So he worked his way around to the more effective peaceful means.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Thatcher called him a terrorist. I'd have used the words "freedom fighter", but hey, semantics, huh?
Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
I don't recall that episode of The Young Ones? I'll have to trawl through Youtube. In a nutshell eh? Rik Mayall and and Ade Edmundson would have had some fun with that scene!
The hero of the anti-apartheid struggle was not the saint we want him to be.
The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve attention.
He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights
-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983
-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985
-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988
-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986
-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead
-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987
-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988
Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”
As President he bought a lot of military hardware
Inheriting a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, one might expect resources to be poured into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Yet once in office, even Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people. Deputy Minister of Defence Ronnie Kasrils said in 1995 that the government’s planned cuts in defence spending could also result in the loss of as many as 90,000 jobs in defence-related industries.
Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…
Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) purchase of weaponry was finalised, which has been subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft.
Below are some of the purchases made, presumably to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…
Description
Original Qty
Illustrative total cost
Corvettes
4
R4 billion
Maritime helicopter for corvettes
5
R1 billion
New submarines to replace Daphne
4
R5,5 billion
Alouette helicopter replacement
60
R2 billion
Advanced light fighter
48
R6-9 billion
Main Battle Tank replacement of Olifant
154
R6 billion
Total cost in 1998 Rand
R25-38 billion
Mandela was friendly with dictators
Despite being synonymous with freedom and democracy, Mandela was never afraid to glad hand the thugs and tyrants of the international arena.
General Sani Abacha seized power in Nigeria in a military coup in November 1993. From the start of his presidency, in May 1994, Nelson Mandela refrained from publicly condemning Abacha’s actions. Up until the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in November 1995 the ANC government vigorously opposed the imposition of sanctions against Nigeria. Shortly before the meeting Mandela’s spokesman, Parks Mankahlana, said that “quiet persuasion” would yield better results than coercion. Even after the Nigerian government announced the death sentences against Saro-Wiwa and eight other Ogoni activists, during the summit, Mandela refused to condemn the Abacha regime or countenance the imposition of sanctions.
Two of the ANC’s biggest donors, in the 1990s, were Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia . Not only did Mandela refrain from criticising their lamentable human rights records but he interceded diplomatically on their behalf, and awarded them South Africa ‘s highest honour. Suharto was awarded a state visit, a 21-gun salute, and The Order of Good Hope (gold class).
In April 1999 Mandela acknowledged to an audience in Johannesburg that Suharto had given the ANC a total of 60 million dollars. An initial donation of 50 million dollars had been followed up by a further 10 million. The Telegraph ( London ) reported that Gaddafi was known to have given the ANC well over ten million dollars.
The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. Its important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.
QUOTE=Nick;598849]Can anybody sum up everything he did in a nutshell for the young ones?[/QUOTE]
The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve attention.
He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights
-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983
-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985
-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988
-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986
-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead
-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987
-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988
Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”
As President he bought a lot of military hardware
Inheriting a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, one might expect resources to be poured into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Yet once in office, even Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people. Deputy Minister of Defence Ronnie Kasrils said in 1995 that the government’s planned cuts in defence spending could also result in the loss of as many as 90,000 jobs in defence-related industries.
Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…
Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) purchase of weaponry was finalised, which has been subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft.
Below are some of the purchases made, presumably to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…
Description
Original Qty
Illustrative total cost
Corvettes
4
R4 billion
Maritime helicopter for corvettes
5
R1 billion
New submarines to replace Daphne
4
R5,5 billion
Alouette helicopter replacement
60
R2 billion
Advanced light fighter
48
R6-9 billion
Main Battle Tank replacement of Olifant
154
R6 billion
Total cost in 1998 Rand
R25-38 billion
Mandela was friendly with dictators
Despite being synonymous with freedom and democracy, Mandela was never afraid to glad hand the thugs and tyrants of the international arena.
General Sani Abacha seized power in Nigeria in a military coup in November 1993. From the start of his presidency, in May 1994, Nelson Mandela refrained from publicly condemning Abacha’s actions. Up until the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in November 1995 the ANC government vigorously opposed the imposition of sanctions against Nigeria. Shortly before the meeting Mandela’s spokesman, Parks Mankahlana, said that “quiet persuasion” would yield better results than coercion. Even after the Nigerian government announced the death sentences against Saro-Wiwa and eight other Ogoni activists, during the summit, Mandela refused to condemn the Abacha regime or countenance the imposition of sanctions.
Two of the ANC’s biggest donors, in the 1990s, were Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia . Not only did Mandela refrain from criticising their lamentable human rights records but he interceded diplomatically on their behalf, and awarded them South Africa ‘s highest honour. Suharto was awarded a state visit, a 21-gun salute, and The Order of Good Hope (gold class).
In April 1999 Mandela acknowledged to an audience in Johannesburg that Suharto had given the ANC a total of 60 million dollars. An initial donation of 50 million dollars had been followed up by a further 10 million. The Telegraph ( London ) reported that Gaddafi was known to have given the ANC well over ten million dollars.
The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. Its important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.
QUOTE=Nick;598849]Can anybody sum up everything he did in a nutshell for the young ones?[/QUOTE]
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
My god ! Although to be honest I knew somebody would do this, just didn't think it would be this quick. Quick question for you though, having took the time to find all of the above, did you disagree with his stance ? I only ask because what the fuck would you have done if you would have been a black person in South Africa during them times. I wonder if the colour of skin has something to do with your post (I hope not) because us white British folk did far worse during the British empire to the native Zulus of South Africa all those years ago.
[/QUOTE]The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. Its important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]My god ! Although to be honest I knew somebody would do this, just didn't think it would be this quick. Quick question for you though, having took the time to find all of the above, did you disagree with his stance ? I only ask because what the fuck would you have done if you would have been a black person in South Africa during them times. I wonder if the colour of skin has something to do with your post (I hope not) because us white British folk did far worse during the British empire to the native Zulus of South Africa all those years ago.[/QUOTE]
I found this info from browsing the internet. The colour of my skin has nothing to do with anything.I have chinese,black,indian and even ginger mates. I think this final paragraph sums it up nicely . Nobodies perfect is the message, even Mother Theresa had "skeletons"
Edit:- Quoting is all screwed up
[/QUOTE]My god ! Although to be honest I knew somebody would do this, just didn't think it would be this quick. Quick question for you though, having took the time to find all of the above, did you disagree with his stance ? I only ask because what the fuck would you have done if you would have been a black person in South Africa during them times. I wonder if the colour of skin has something to do with your post (I hope not) because us white British folk did far worse during the British empire to the native Zulus of South Africa all those years ago.[/QUOTE]
I found this info from browsing the internet. The colour of my skin has nothing to do with anything.I have chinese,black,indian and even ginger mates. I think this final paragraph sums it up nicely . Nobodies perfect is the message, even Mother Theresa had "skeletons"
Edit:- Quoting is all screwed up
Last edited:
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
I found this info from browsing the internet. The colour of my skin has nothing to do with anything.I have chinese,black,indian and even ginger mates. I think this final paragraph sums it up nicely . Nobodies perfect is the message, even Mother Theresa had "skeletons"[/QUOTE]
You're exactly right in what you say about the great man, but by him admitting this does this not make him even greater and therefore not subject to all of the stuff you typed about his past the day after he dies. This thread was about a where were you moment because he passed away and people were saying RIP to a truly great man, not to point out all of his past. Just think place and timing was extremely poor. If you are going to have a go about people not knowing the real or full story, have a pop at retards like Paris Hilton who tweeted about him and his great 'I HAVE A DREAM SPEECH' last night, you couldn't make the fucker up ! As a side note, to say that you have black, chinese etc friends is not a good argument. One final point, I'd ditch the ginger mate
The West always hold him up as some kind of Saint. He was a great leader, and made many sacrifices, but always said "I am just a man". There are many in history who have a simialr past. Menachin Begin of Israel, was a "terroist" leader and became President of the country.
Michael Collins also (invented guerilla warfare). Collins was a great political leader who paid the ultimate sacrifice (assinated by the IRA - although I simplify slightly), and greatly respected by Churchill, who knew that without Collins leadership, then there would have been even greater bloodshed.
If you look a Martin Luther King who's method was freedom by peaceful process - which ultimately worked once the Politicians (Robert Kennedy) supported through policy, then there really is someone iconic. Again, thoug the ultimate sacrificae was paid.
Anyway, I shall now spend the rest of my day behind the keyboard saving the environement!
Michael Collins also (invented guerilla warfare). Collins was a great political leader who paid the ultimate sacrifice (assinated by the IRA - although I simplify slightly), and greatly respected by Churchill, who knew that without Collins leadership, then there would have been even greater bloodshed.
If you look a Martin Luther King who's method was freedom by peaceful process - which ultimately worked once the Politicians (Robert Kennedy) supported through policy, then there really is someone iconic. Again, thoug the ultimate sacrificae was paid.
Anyway, I shall now spend the rest of my day behind the keyboard saving the environement!
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It's the old adage isn't it? One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. R.I.P.
Indeed it is. Always fascinating to read up on political history. A great leader. R.I.P.
wtf