Oscar Gobern (3 Viewers)

[mrtrench]

Don't you just love these kind of football players? The ones born with the ability to play professional football and earn the kind of money most of us can only dream about that just can't be arsed to try on a Saturday? I imagine they are wonderful, intelligent company.

 

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[ccfcway]

if you can keep him fit & get him playing as he can, you've got a very good signing.

ah, Coubaily part 2

 

[skybluegod]

Don't you just love these kind of football players? The ones born with the ability to play professional football and earn the kind of money most of us can only dream about that just can't be arsed to try on a Saturday? I imagine they are wonderful, intelligent company.

Tbh, you aren't born with the ability to play football, it's widely believed that the ability to play a certain sport is not innate or genetic. The argument that a player has all the ability but not the work rate is ridiculous, as most footballers as kids have spent time in academy's from a very young age and put in a lot of work and effort. The only reason he has made it is because he is SKILLED, not because of his ability.
Plus you are slagging him off before he has even played or signed for us? Have you even considered that, during his time out of the team at Huddersfield he worked his arse off and earnt his chance and played well enough to stay in the team?

 

[terrier78]

I think you may be right. To be fair to him, he has struggled with injuries since he's been here and I expect that's at least part of why his time at HTFC has been so disappointing.

To his credit he's looking for a move where he's likely to get regular first team football rather than sitting on a contract for another year.

 

[Samo]

Tbh, you aren't born with the ability to play football, it's widely believed that the ability to play a certain sport is not innate or genetic. The argument that a player has all the ability but not the work rate is ridiculous, as most footballers as kids have spent time in academy's from a very young age and put in a lot of work and effort. The only reason he has made it is because he is SKILLED, not because of his ability.
Plus you are slagging him off before he has even played or signed for us? Have you even considered that, during his time out of the team at Huddersfield he worked his arse off and earnt his chance and played well enough to stay in the team?

I have news... the nature/nurture debate runs a lot deeper than this.

 

[Hobo]

Don't forget the lazy as fuck and the precious genes! Can I prove it exists? Can't be arsed with this tight hamstring!

 

[skybluegod]

I have news... the nature/nurture debate runs a lot deeper than this.

As I said widely accepted... Some people do argue its 'genetic' but there is a hell of a lot more evidence to suggest otherwise.
Plus even so... No footballer is 'lazy' they wouldn't be a pro if they were.

 

[mrtrench]

Tbh, you aren't born with the ability to play football, it's widely believed that the ability to play a certain sport is not innate or genetic. The argument that a player has all the ability but not the work rate is ridiculous, as most footballers as kids have spent time in academy's from a very young age and put in a lot of work and effort. The only reason he has made it is because he is SKILLED, not because of his ability.
Plus you are slagging him off before he has even played or signed for us? Have you even considered that, during his time out of the team at Huddersfield he worked his arse off and earnt his chance and played well enough to stay in the team?

I consider a lot of things. I'm considering now the difference between the nouns "ability" and "skill". I cannot get a strand of dental floss between them. I've looked up the words in a dictionary and they are used as synonyms for each other. Please explain your point.

 

[Samo]

As I said widely accepted... Some people do argue its 'genetic' but there is a hell of a lot more evidence to suggest otherwise.
Plus even so... No footballer is 'lazy' they wouldn't be a pro if they were.

Please go ahead and provide this evidence, I can't wait. And 'No footballer is lazy' ? You are, without a shadow of a doubt, shitting me!

 

[skybluegod]

I consider a lot of things. I'm considering now the difference between the nouns "ability" and "skill". I cannot get a strand of dental floss between them. I've looked up the words in a dictionary and they are used as synonyms for each other. Please explain your point.

In sporting terms:
skill- is a learned movement, to bring about predetermined results with maximum certainty, often with least amount of time and effort.
Ability- an inherited, enduring stable trait that underlies or supports various kinds of motor and cognitive activities or skills. They are genetically determined and unmodified by practice.
So my point is that you aren't born a good footballer, as an ability is usually a trait, such as being generous. Imo and one widely accepted in sport is that, most sports performers are skilled, which is a result of circumstance and practice.

 

[Samo]

In sporting terms:
skill- is a learned movement, to bring about predetermined results with maximum certainty, often with least amount of time and effort.
Ability- an inherited, enduring stable trait that underlies or supports various kinds of motor and cognitive activities or skills. They are genetically determined and unmodified by practice.
So my point is that you aren't born a good footballer, as an ability is usually a trait, such as being generous. Imo and one widely accepted in sport is that, most sports performers are skilled, which is a result of circumstance and practice.

No offence intended but you are nowhere near as intelligent or informed as you are trying to appear.

 

[skybluegod]

Please go ahead and provide this evidence, I can't wait. And 'No footballer is lazy' ? You are, without a shadow of a doubt, shitting me!

Studies have shown it takes 10 years/10000 hours to become an expert in a particular field. Throughout history and not just in sport a lot of evidence suggests that practice determines success not 'ability'

one experiment on musicians for example was at the best music college in the world. There was a class that was split into 3 sections:- the ones who were the best and would be solo players, the good players but not good enough to be soloists and a group that was okay and would most likely be music teachers.
The expermiment showed that the people in the top band practiced the most, every day for hours and had been playing the longest. Intermediate group practiced fairly often but not as much. The 3rd group practiced but not on the scale as the other two.
For a sporting example: tiger woods when he won his first major tournament was considered the most 'naturally gifted' golfer of all time and yet studies since have shown otherwise. His dad showed us otherwise. He was given his first gold club at 1. He was playing by 3. By 15 he had won his first national golf tournament. His dad has brought him a pro coach at 5 years old. He played everyday and he spent 2/3 hours just putting a day.
I could give you hundreds more of examples and experiments but not tonight.

There is a common misconception that footballers are lazy, when in actual fact it is shown by my evidence above it takes a lot of time and effort to get to where they are.

 

[skybluegod]

No offence intended but you are nowhere near as intelligent or informed as you are trying to appear.

I'm not trying to look intelligent, I'm just pointing out facts tbh...
you don't have to agree with my opinion, but the fact that you can't argue against it, is suggesting my point is correct?

more than happy to be shown another point of view tho

 

[Samo]

I'm not trying to look intelligent, I'm just pointing out facts tbh...
you don't have to agree with my opinion, but the fact that you can't argue against it, is suggesting my point is correct?

I have not attempted to argue against it but will if you like. I certainly would not argue that early age exposure and practice/repetition are not massive factors, of course they are. But you seem to dismiss all the natural dispositions and physiological inclinations that might lend themselves to a particular sport. Never mind 'accepted' thinking, show me some facts, some proof of what you say.
You have shown no 'evidence' that footballers are not lazy, only an opinion. To suggest that none are, undermines other opinions you might hold.

 

[skybluegod]

I have not attempted to argue against it but will if you like. I certainly would not argue that early age exposure and practice/repetition are not massive factors, of course they are. But you seem to dismiss all the natural dispositions and physiological inclinations that might lend themselves to a particular sport. Never mind 'accepted' thinking, show me some facts, some proof of what you say.
You have shown no 'evidence' that footballers are not lazy, only an opinion. To suggest that none are, undermines other opinions you might hold.

obviously there are some inherited traits that aid development, for example I agree that some players are born with better pace and strength. Obviously it depends on muscle fibres in deciding which sport people participate. But that's just a little part as it still depends on practice and circumstance. I have shown facts?
Just to clarify what do you mean by 'lazy' ?

 

[Samo]

obviously there are some inherited traits that aid development, for example I agree that some players are born with better pace and strength. Obviously it depends on muscle fibres in deciding which sport people participate. But that's just a little part as it still depends on practice and circumstance. I have shown facts?
Just to clarify what do you mean by 'lazy' ?

No you have not shown facts, only inherited opinions.
Lazy in the accepted sense of the term - less willing than others to put in effort.
If i gave you 100 newborns and you let them eat, sleep and drink football from age zero you should be able to produce a Messi according to your view, correct? Or is there something more required?

 

[shmmeee]

Studies have shown it takes 10 years/10000 hours to become an expert in a particular field. Throughout history and not just in sport a lot of evidence suggests that practice determines success not 'ability'
.

This has been debunked (like most of the stuff you read in popular science books unfortunately, I'm a fan of Gladwell too, but it's more entertainment than science). Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-study-destroys-malcolm-gladwells-10000-rule-2014-7?IR=T

Also: Lazy, adjective: unwilling to work or use energy. Nothing about it being a permanent character trait. It's perfect possible to "become lazy".

I don't actually disagree with your fundamental point (follow you dreams, you can achieve your goals, etc.) I just think it's badly made.

 

[mrtrench]

I have not attempted to argue against it but will if you like. I certainly would not argue that early age exposure and practice/repetition are not massive factors, of course they are. But you seem to dismiss all the natural dispositions and physiological inclinations that might lend themselves to a particular sport. Never mind 'accepted' thinking, show me some facts, some proof of what you say.
You have shown no 'evidence' that footballers are not lazy, only an opinion. To suggest that none are, undermines other opinions you might hold.

EDIT: ** Wrong quotation - see below**

Actually I'm happy with this conversation now; I thought before you were being an arse but with this post I realise you aren't.

I agree with you to some degree. I agree that one doesn't become accomplished at anything without practice and I agree that he will have practised to get to that level. However what you are missing is that some people are born with the potential to realise a certain level of accomplishment. Try as I might, I would never have been able to play at his level. I did get better as I got older but Sunday league is as far as I would ever get. I did however practise hard with other things and realised a performance greater than average on those things. Nature and nurture both play a part. I'm in a small group of people who have been lucky enough to be able to see that play out (to some degree). I won't share the details as it's very personal.

It is however entirely possible that someone could practise as a child but now doesn't really bother now he has reached the level he wanted.

As for this guy - I don't know him. It was a glib comment and I'm not writing him off. If he joins I hope he does well.

 

[mrtrench]

I'm not trying to look intelligent, I'm just pointing out facts tbh...
you don't have to agree with my opinion, but the fact that you can't argue against it, is suggesting my point is correct?

more than happy to be shown another point of view tho

Sorry Samo, I meant to quote this post.

 

[simonregis]

What a total load of poo. It made me laugh though. Is this the level of intelligence on here? I thought Bentley's roof was scraping the barrel but this beats the biscuit.

 

[mrtrench]

What a total load of poo. It made me laugh though. Is this the level of intelligence on here? I thought Bentley's roof was scraping the barrel but this beats the biscuit.

It's ok, I already knew that you were an arse.

 

[Otis]

It's ok, I already knew that you were an arse.

Yeah, his brother Cyrille talks much more sense.

 

[skybluegod]

No you have not shown facts, only inherited opinions.
Lazy in the accepted sense of the term - less willing than others to put in effort.
If i gave you 100 newborns and you let them eat, sleep and drink football from age zero you should be able to produce a Messi according to your view, correct? Or is there something more required?

I have shown you plenty of experiments and people which have proven this? I could show plenty more?
No im not saying that, because it depends on their personality traits, their mental strength and as I said their muscle fibre composition.

 

[skybluegod]

EDIT: ** Wrong quotation - see below**

Actually I'm happy with this conversation now; I thought before you were being an arse but with this post I realise you aren't.

I agree with you to some degree. I agree that one doesn't become accomplished at anything without practice and I agree that he will have practised to get to that level. However what you are missing is that some people are born with the potential to realise a certain level of accomplishment. Try as I might, I would never have been able to play at his level. I did get better as I got older but Sunday league is as far as I would ever get. I did however practise hard with other things and realised a performance greater than average on those things. Nature and nurture both play a part. I'm in a small group of people who have been lucky enough to be able to see that play out (to some degree). I won't share the details as it's very personal.

It is however entirely possible that someone could practise as a child but now doesn't really bother now he has reached the level he wanted.

As for this guy - I don't know him. It was a glib comment and I'm not writing him off. If he joins I hope he does well.

No didn't mean to come come across an arse, just my point of view on things.
I see your point and I have studied that claim as well, however having studied both sides, Imo you or I or anybody could reach an incredibly high level. However the problem is that when people don't see a vast improvement quickly then people give up or they don't put as much time and effort into it and that is the difference.
And what I have found, is that the difference between the people that succeed and don't in sport is their mental strength.

It is true he may have reached the level he wanted, but surely imo is it not every players dream to play in the premier league?

 

[Astute]

No didn't mean to come come across an arse, just my point of view on things.
I see your point and I have studied that claim as well, however having studied both sides, Imo you or I or anybody could reach an incredibly high level. However the problem is that when people don't see a vast improvement quickly then people give up or they don't put as much time and effort into it and that is the difference.
And what I have found, is that the difference between the people that succeed and don't in sport is their mental strength.

It is true he may have reached the level he wanted, but surely imo is it not every players dream to play in the premier league?

Agree with nearly all of what you say. Not all of them are the same though. How about those that give it their all but once the money starts coming in it becomes their main aim? Being a footballer is a dream for many. But training day after day, year after year? Many end up going through the motions. Some get their arse into gear when they end up at a lower division club. Some have the skills to do well without trying. Some just join to collect the money. The gamble is which one you get.

 

[Samo]

No didn't mean to come come across an arse, just my point of view on things.
I see your point and I have studied that claim as well, however having studied both sides, Imo you or I or anybody could reach an incredibly high level. However the problem is that when people don't see a vast improvement quickly then people give up or they don't put as much time and effort into it and that is the difference.
And what I have found, is that the difference between the people that succeed and don't in sport is their mental strength.

It is true he may have reached the level he wanted, but surely imo is it not every players dream to play in the premier league?

John MacEnroe in his pomp rarely practiced and was not particularly fit. A perfect example of the triumph of talent over endevour.

 

[Astute]

John MacEnroe in his pomp rarely practiced and was not particularly fit. A perfect example of the triumph of talent over endevour.

He was clever. He put his opponents off and broke their concentration.

 

[Samo]

He was clever. He put his opponents off and broke their concentration.

I think there was a bit more to him than that Astute.

 

[Astute]

I think there was a bit more to him than that Astute.

There was. He was naturally fit. But when tennis season starts they have game after game. And as he won nearly every game he was playing all the time. Solo games don't need many tactics. His main tactic was to stop the game when losing. Look at how many games he wasn't doing well but after his latest outburst ended up winning.

 

[skybluegod]

John MacEnroe in his pomp rarely practiced and was not particularly fit. A perfect example of the triumph of talent over endevour.

You said it yourself.... In his pomp... So he had already built up subroutines and motor programmes from the experience he had gained throughout his life and In the training when he was younger. The matches he played gave him even more exp.

 

[skybluegod]

Agree with nearly all of what you say. Not all of them are the same though. How about those that give it their all but once the money starts coming in it becomes their main aim? Being a footballer is a dream for many. But training day after day, year after year? Many end up going through the motions. Some get their arse into gear when they end up at a lower division club. Some have the skills to do well without trying. Some just join to collect the money. The gamble is which one you get.

Yeah that is actually a fair interpretation. Obviously it's different in football now with agents tainting people, and perhaps not always working in the players best interests.
But yes certainly some players motivations are different and money can be key, but if so, is the motivation not there to keep improving in the hope of gaining even more money?

 

[Samo]

You said it yourself.... In his pomp... So he had already built up subroutines and motor programmes from the experience he had gained throughout his life and In the training when he was younger. The matches he played gave him even more exp.

If you want to believe there are no geniuses, you go ahead. He was simply better than everyone else and didn't need to put the hours in.

 

[covmark]

Ronnie O'Sullivan is a good example of a genius. I mean this guy had a year off snooker and went to work on a pig farm. Came back, and wiped the floor with everybody at the world championships. It's well documented that he is not big on practice. Natural talent in abundance.

 

[skybluegod]

If you want to believe there are no geniuses, you go ahead. He was simply better than everyone else and didn't need to put the hours in.

When did I say there was no geniuses? I said it takes hard work to become one.

just gonna point this out okay... It would be impossible John macenroe just to rely on talent... Why? Because it's impossible to return a tennis serve at 100+ mph without practice. Why? Because a human body cannot react in this time and so it takes practice and experience to predetermine where the tennis player is going to serve and this is through the way they arch their back Etc. this can only be learnt through practice and experience.

 

[mrtrench]

When did I say there was no geniuses? I said it takes hard work to become one.

just gonna point this out okay... It would be impossible John macenroe just to rely on talent... Why? Because it's impossible to return a tennis serve at 100+ mph without practice. Why? Because a human body cannot react in this time and so it takes practice and experience to predetermine where the tennis player is going to serve and this is through the way they arch their back Etc. this can only be learnt through practice and experience.

Has anyone suggested that performance is only down to nature? I believe we're disagreeing with your position that it's only nurture.