Paul Ince is he deluded or does he have a point? (1 Viewer)

jimmyhillsfanclub · Sep 30, 2014

....Conversely, one could argue that there are too many black pundits on the telly when compared to the ratios of black & white ex-players.....

Seriously though....the managers argument is pointless unless someone can embellish it with some real data regarding percentages of ex players from different ethnic groups taking & passing all their badges etc.

Until then...its all bizzle shizzle...

Nick · Sep 30, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
It's hardly pointless. Footballing bodies across the world have long campaigned (rightly) to 'kick racism out of football'. So when there are so few black managers, utterly disproportionate to the number of players, well, you have to raise an eyebrow.

I guess it is hard to say without seeing how many black managers apply for jobs, how many are qualified etc.

Colonel Mustard · Sep 30, 2014

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
....Conversely, one could argue that there are too many black pundits on the telly when compared to the ratios of black & white ex-players.....

Could you? Around a quarter of players are black. Are a quarter of footie pundits black?

Seriously though....the managers argument is pointless unless someone can embellish it with some real data regarding percentages of ex players from different ethnic groups taking & passing all their badges etc.

Until then...its all bizzle shizzle...

That can be done: linky

At the time of that article (2010) 25% of those taking the qualifications were black - proportional to those playing.

Colonel Mustard · Sep 30, 2014

Nick said:
I guess it is hard to say without seeing how many black managers apply for jobs, how many are qualified etc.

It's not hard to say. Would anybody here say that homosexuality is a sorted issue in football? Nope. Why wouldn't we say it? Because we only need to look at the data. Footballers remain in the closet.

Same thing goes here. We can say we live in a post-racial society, but we only need to look at the data...

Nick · Sep 30, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
It's not hard to say. Would anybody here say that homosexuality is a sorted issue in football? Nope. Why wouldn't we say it? Because we only need to look at the data. Footballers remain in the closet.

Same thing goes here. We can say we live in a post-racial society, but we only need to look at the data...

Well it is, because if there aren't many black people qualified to be top managers then it could explain why there aren't black people as top managers. If they aren't applying for jobs then that could be why.

If however for example it is 50/50 on how many black people are qualified and 50% of applicants for every job are black, then of course something is very wrong. Or if there are loads qualified and not many applying for jobs.

mds · Sep 30, 2014

Aces in their places, if your good enough the job is yours, same in any industry, way too many foreign managers and players in this country of all race/religion to try and play the race card!

Colonel Mustard · Sep 30, 2014

Nick said:
Well it is, because if there aren't many black people qualified to be top managers then it could explain why there aren't black people as top managers. If they aren't applying for jobs then that could be why.

If however for example it is 50/50 on how many black people are qualified and 50% of applicants for every job are black, then of course something is very wrong. Or if there are loads qualified and not many applying for jobs.

Why would 25% of former black players train to get their managerial qualifications if they had no intention of applying for jobs?!

RoboCCFC90 · Sep 30, 2014

I suppose when your a totally shit manager you need excuses, Well done Paul Ince nice try..

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Deleted member 5849 · Sep 30, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
Why would 25% of former black players train to get their managerial qualifications if they had no intention of applying for jobs?!

Indeed. Even then, stats don't say everything either, as there can be implicit barriers that stop you even trying if the culture is intrinsically against you.

I dunno, in an ideal world positive discrimination tends to annoy me as it seems to fly in the face of a true equality, where balance is found naturally. If, however, there's a problem what do you do? Ignore it and hope it goes away? The fact so few black managers come through relative to players is a concern, as true prejudice is usually found in who gets certain jobs. The fact black players can break through but not managers fits a little uneasily for me into the stereotype of black men being naturally athletic but not as intelligent...

In a world where the turnover of managers is pretty high too, you'd certainly expect a few more given the opportunity given the general qualification for becoming a manager is playing at a half-decent level.

So I'll sit on the fence and say the issue needs looking at, but I don't know what the solution is.

stupot07 · Sep 30, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Indeed. Even then, stats don't say everything either, as there can be implicit barriers that stop you even trying if the culture is intrinsically against you.

I dunno, in an ideal world positive discrimination tends to annoy me as it seems to fly in the face of a true equality, where balance is found naturally. If, however, there's a problem what do you do? Ignore it and hope it goes away? The fact so few black managers come through relative to players is a concern, as true prejudice is usually found in who gets certain jobs. The fact black players can break through but not managers fits a little uneasily for me into the stereotype of black men being naturally athletic but not as intelligent...

In a world where the turnover of managers is pretty high too, you'd certainly expect a few more given the opportunity given the general qualification for becoming a manager is playing at a half-decent level.

So I'll sit on the fence and say the issue needs looking at, but I don't know what the solution is.

It would be interesting to see what the % black backroom staff coaches around the first team......I bet it's not 25%.

I think we have to remove the name Paul Ince from this, and look at the issue in isolation.

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Chipfat · Sep 30, 2014

Ince is a moaning twat and always had been, player, manager or his son's rep, the whole world has always been against him. So the statement might be true and the figures might back him up he is probably the wrong man to be claiming this.. He has had opportunities even after failure's and should know the game owes him nothing or anybody else for that matter, you win, you climb the ladder and get paid well you lose or are not successful in your role the rewards are not so high or the demand for your service is not that great....

That has nothing to do with colour its to do with results and performance, if opportunity is what is not open that is wrong and should be opened.....

Brighton Sky Blue · Sep 30, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Automatic interviews for everybody if it is genuine equality of opportunity.

To stop joke applications you'd have to have some kind of limit but there should be a minimum number accepted from minorities.

Nick · Sep 30, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
Why would 25% of former black players train to get their managerial qualifications if they had no intention of applying for jobs?!

I know plenty of people who go to Uni and get degrees and don't use them. I wasn't saying that IS the situation, just that there are lots of possibilities.

Do they then go into coaching using these badges, I don't know?

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 30, 2014

stupot07 said:
I think we have to remove the name Paul Ince from this, and look at the issue in isolation.

Well... not in isolation, surely

But yes, just because Ince is shit doesn't mean all is well with the world elsewhere.

Colonel Mustard · Sep 30, 2014

Nick said:
I know plenty of people who go to Uni and get degrees and don't use them. I wasn't saying that IS the situation, just that there are lots of possibilities. Do they then go into coaching using these badges, I don't know?

This argument doesn't factor in proportionality. If there are some black managers who don't apply for jobs after receiving their qualification, then presumably there would be a proportionate number of white managers who don't either. That still doesn't explain the 2% figure.

And in this day and age, it becomes increasingly hard to identify 'other possibilities' because managers get fired so frequently. The turnover is immense. Only one thing seems to stay the same...

Nick · Sep 30, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
This argument doesn't factor in proportionality. If there are some black managers who don't apply for jobs after receiving their qualification, then presumably there would be a proportionate number of white managers who don't either. That still doesn't explain the 2% figure.

And in this day and age, it becomes increasingly hard to identify 'other possibilities' because managers get fired so frequently. The turnover is immense. Only one thing seems to stay the same...

I agree with the last bit, maybe I just find it strange / alien that people could just judge a football manager on his skin colour and not results / performance. At least with gay footballers I can see that with the fans and other players (not that I agree with it).

jimmyhillsfanclub · Sep 30, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
Could you? Around a quarter of players are black. Are a quarter of footie pundits black?

That can be done: linky

At the time of that article (2010) 25% of those taking the qualifications were black - proportional to those playing.

Good article. Dunno about pundit figures and it was a comment made in jest anyhow.
Be careful quoting the 25% figure as it needs to be in context....it stated the figures had recntlty increased from 0....and 25% entering tge coaching setup only 4 years back can hardly expect to be top managers already.
Any figures for black managers in the non league pyramid? Thatwould prove Iinteresting too.

stupot07 · Sep 30, 2014

Nick said:
I agree with the last bit, maybe I just find it strange / alien that people could just judge a football manager on his skin colour and not results / performance. At least with gay footballers I can see that with the fans and other players (not that I agree with it).

Unfortunately they obviously are, even if it's more unconscious decision. And they can't always judge by their results if black managers are given their first job to begin with.

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harvey098 · Sep 30, 2014

Does anybody hand on heart on here believe that a chairman would give a job to lesser performing white manager over a better performing black manager because of race? That is essentially the accusation

Colonel Mustard · Sep 30, 2014

harvey098 said:
Does anybody hand on heart on here believe that a chairman would give a job to lesser performing white manager over a better performing black manager because of race? That is essentially the accusation

There are only two black managers to choose from...

Sky_Blue_Ste · Sep 30, 2014

I don't know enough about how many black players take their badges etc to comment on the wider issue but one thing is for sure - he's not getting a Manager job not because of the colour of his skin but because he's rubbish in my opinion

Nick · Sep 30, 2014

Colonel Mustard said:
There are only two black managers to choose from...

Surely there are loads of unemployed ones?

stupot07 · Sep 30, 2014

Nick said:
Surely there are loads of unemployed ones?

There's not that many though as there's never been many given a chance at management in the first place. Off the top of my head I can only think of hughton, ince, curle and tiguana in the top 3 leagues ever. (Although I may have forgotten some)

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Deleted member 5849 · Sep 30, 2014

stupot07 said:
There's not that many though as there's never been many given a chance at management in the first place. Off the top of my head I can only think of hughton, ince, curle and tiguana in the top 3 leagues ever. (Although I may have forgotten some)

Leroy Rosenior springs to mind...

Former managers wasn't really the point though...

stupot07 · Sep 30, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Leroy Rosenior springs to mind...

Former managers wasn't really the point though...

I was trying to remember his name. Thanks!

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The Lurker · Sep 30, 2014

stupot07 said:
There's not that many though as there's never been many given a chance at management in the first place. Off the top of my head I can only think of hughton, ince, curle and tiguana in the top 3 leagues ever. (Although I may have forgotten some)

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Leroy Rosenior and ruud guillit? All of whom done shit jobs and got the sack for poor managing not because the colour of there skin. Keith curle now the manager of Carlisle. In my view, it's a non story

skybluebeduff · Sep 30, 2014

Anyone know where i can contribute towards CCFC related topics?.

Grendel · Sep 30, 2014

stupot07 said:
There's not that many though as there's never been many given a chance at management in the first place. Off the top of my head I can only think of hughton, ince, curle and tiguana in the top 3 leagues ever. (Although I may have forgotten some)

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Chris Kamara?

Frisky blue · Oct 1, 2014

CraigSBA said:
I suppose if more black managers were around to manage and were good enough ...then they would be appointed , i hate people like ince who pointlessly bring race into an argument

Quite right, he's just an arrogant prick, same as Sol " I would have been England captain for ten years if I wasn't black" Campbell. It's always about them, they couldn't give a toss about anybody else, the self pitying selfish tossers.
And don't get me started on the abomination of so called Fucking "positive discrimination," what gives any body, absolutely anybody, the right to tell any other person that they are a positive and therefore more entitled than the next person, just because they have a different skin tone. My children all happen to be white, so if they are discriminated against, that is ok then is it? We'll actually, no it fucking we'll is not! Discrimination is discrimination regardless.

Gazolba · Oct 1, 2014

I think its more that black players don't consider management a possibility because there are so few role models. Also what black players there are usually go and manage for their own countries, just like Scottish players will manage Scotland but not England. There really is not a great tradition of the black English player who is manager-material, maybe there will be in the future. I'm old enough to remember when any black English player was a novelty. I think Cyrille Regis was one of the first.

Macca · Oct 1, 2014

Frisky blue said:
Quite right, he's just an arrogant prick, same as Sol " I would have been England captain for ten years if I wasn't black" Campbell. It's always about them, they couldn't give a toss about anybody else, the self pitying selfish tossers.
And don't get me started on the abomination of so called Fucking "positive discrimination," what gives any body, absolutely anybody, the right to tell any other person that they are a positive and therefore more entitled than the next person, just because they have a different skin tone. My children all happen to be white, so if they are discriminated against, that is ok then is it? We'll actually, no it fucking we'll is not! Discrimination is discrimination regardless.

Careful, someone will be getting a visit from the independent thought police!

mrtrench · Oct 1, 2014

Nobody is suggesting that black managers should be given roles they are not qualified for or that they should be appointed when a white manager more suitable for the position is available. Ince isn't suggesting that. The Rooney Rule doesn't suggest that. The only people suggesting that are the people justifying their positions by leaping to an extreme to make it sound ridiculous.

What is clearly the case is that given the statistics, which nobody here has disputed, there is obviously implicit racism in the system. If you think that is ok then of course you may have your opinion but please don't jump through completely illogical and fabricated hoops to try and justify yourselves.

If like me you think that it's not ok then clearly something has to be done. But what? Why not force clubs to at least interview a black candidate? I'm sure there is little explicit racism and so some clubs may find that they are impressed and find a better manager as a result.

Kingokings204 · Oct 1, 2014

The way I look at it is if black managers were that good as Ince says then why haven't they all got jobs? If the man is good enough regardless of anything he will get the job. This is a non story started by a typical moaner who hasn't got a job and hasn't had one for a few years. The man is a class A prick as well and he is moaning just at the time he hadn't had or got a job in years. Same with Sol Campbell who in his book purely self publicised to sell his book and make him more millions.

I find it slightly funny how I never heard Ince moan when he was in a job the condescending prick. I look to a good manager who just happens to be black and that's Chris Powell, I good man and decent/ok manager. Never heard him bleat once, he gets his head down and works his socks off.

To conclude, this just makes me hate ince more and hope he never gets another jobs as he is crap not because he is black. Guess he will just have to have the few million he has already got. Oh and play agent to his son which he seemingly loves as you cant take the smile of his face when you see them together. He hasn't moaned about his son getting good contracts recently. Hate him purely hate him now. Deserves everything he gets.

mrtrench · Oct 1, 2014

Kingokings204 said:
The way I look at it is if black managers were that good as Ince says then why haven't they all got jobs?

Because they are never given a chance to prove they are any good?

The Lurker · Oct 1, 2014

mrtrench said:
Because they are never given a chance to prove they are any good?

Can say that about ALL managers.

side note - look at this. Im amazed - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29427843

Paul Ince is he deluded or does he have a point? (1 Viewer)

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