Portsmouth- what on earth (2 Viewers)

[Otis]

I don't like the way they operate, but this isn't cheating.
10 points now or 10 points later is still ten points.

But in some ways, if they have a buyer lined up, they can choose when they take the 10 points.

What's to say there is a buyer lined up but they are waiting until they are well clear of relegation (after the 10 pt deduction) before they make a move.

The point is, if 10 points were deducted now that would be so deflating and demoralising it could relegate them.

A 10 point deduction that would leave them still above the relegation zone would be quite a victory in some ways.

They have of course got to get to the position whereby this could happen of course and it's all conjecture. Just saying there could be some advantage to come out of this for them dependent on timing.

 

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[chiefdave]

the 10 points is for coming out of admin with a CVA that wasn't voted on by all those who were owed money. the people owed from the last CVA (who have not had a penny) got no say in the CVA that is currently agreed for the next exit from admin.

the next deadline would appear to be February when they will hit the 12 month limit on being in admin. My understanding is that to get an extension they have to go to the courts and it's not a straightforward process. This also give Chanrai more power as he could object to an admin extension as one of those owed money.

past that the next deadline would be the start of next season as I think league rules don't allow you to start 2 consecutive seasons in admin so I would assume they would be chucked out of the league.

Chanrai does have an offer on the table (or at least did) but the supporters are pressuring the league that he wouldn't pass fit and proper as there have been 2 admins on his watch. His argument is that he only comes in by default as part of a loan arrangement (the club was used as security). He also has a charge over the ground which he values in excess of £10m and the Trust (the only other candidates to take over) value at around £2.5m. It's likely that would have to go through the courts as well and the issue of planning restrictions could be challeneged - at the moment Fratton Park (or the land it's on) can only be used as a football ground which Chanrai believes is pushing down the value.

My feeling is the trust have made a big mistake keep taking shots at Chanrai, they would have been better off working with him in the short term as he has the money to keep the club going. He's made it clear he doesn't want to own the club long term he just wants back the money he lent to a former owner to fund the purchase of the club.

The trust seem to be short of money and are keeping very quiet about the details which is frustrating a lot of the fans down here. What is known is that they haven't budgeted enough to cover the admin fees (£2m plus and rising), have budgeted for only a quarter of the amount agreed by the administrator to pay off former players. They now seem to be partnering with a group of property developers who are going to buy the ground and let the club rent it - sound familier?

 

[wingy]

Absolutely Otis ,just how i see it like last season the timing has everything to do with gaining advantage rather than to demoralise ,i just hope that if ever we find ourselves in this kind of predicament there is consistency.

 

[hill83]

I agree Otis. It's working the system as much as they can.
Like has been mentioned, if we are in the same predicament I'd hope for the same option.

 

[Grendel]

Err.... do you really think a buyer would be announced until they are safe from relegation by 10 points? Did you just come down in the last shower?

There is a legal process which dictates that they are allowed 12 months - the notion they can "hide" a buyer from administrators until they wish to declare one is nonsense. They will be deducted points this season when the period expires or they are wiped out.

Is that clear enough for you?

 

[Grendel]

Thanks for the responses people.
It all seems a bit up in the air then as to what Portsmouth's future might be.

Worse than ours though - also I am pretty sure the adminstrators have a cap on salaries and they are limited to 18 pro footballers on one month contracts.

Given all that context I am amazed they are where they are.

 

[Skyblue4u]

There is a legal process which dictates that they are allowed 12 months - the notion they can "hide" a buyer from administrators until they wish to declare one is nonsense. They will be deducted points this season when the period expires or they are wiped out.

Is that clear enough for you?

You're clearly not a businessman. Everybody has bent over backwards to help Pompey and it's not as clearly cut as you seem to think.

Takeovers happen over many months so its not rocket science to start a process then pull the plug if they are going to be relegated.

 

[wingy]

The appleton effect ,or backs against the wall,and as much as we have reviled him for using the system he's been doing it for the team he's manager of ,well until monday anyway ,but i reckon he should succeed at blackpool and would'nt have objected to him coming here as was speculated ,seems he's been desperate to get out of tha thellhole.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The appleton effect ,or backs against the wall,and as much as we have reviled him for using the system he's been doing it for the team he's manager of ,well until monday anyway ,but i reckon he should succeed at blackpool and would'nt have objected to him coming here as was speculated ,seems he's been desperate to get out of tha thellhole.

Appleton: 'Not got off to a good start-chairman's saying we have to 'stick to a budget'. Bloody ridiculous.'

 

[Grendel]

You're clearly not a businessman. Everybody has bent over backwards to help Pompey and it's not as clearly cut as you seem to think.

Takeovers happen over many months so its not rocket science to start a process then pull the plug if they are going to be relegated.

No your'e right you clearly have an expertise in business affairs which is well beyond my limited intellectual capacities.

Thanks ever so much for eductaing me in finer aspects of business strategy.

 

[ashbyjan]

Just for info - the official administrators PKF have made the Pompey Supporters Trust the preferred bidders for the club meaning that Portsmouth could be the first major club to be owned by its fans and community. If you want to learn more about their situation please come along to the Sky Blue Trusts next open meeting where the guest speakers will be from the Pompey Supporters Trust and Supporters Direct (talking about various models of fan ownership). This meeting is scheduled to be at 1pm in the Casino prior to the Pompey game on 24th Nov, this venue is provisional at moment but as soon as its confirmed I will let all know. All are invited (members and non-members) so please come along.

 

[skybluebeduff]

Former Portsmouth owner Balram Chainrai has called a halt to his attempt to buy the League One club.
Hong Kong businessman Chainrai has been trying to assume control at Portsmouth via his company Portpin for a third time in less than three years.
The financially-troubled club have been in administration since February and are said to be around £61m in debt.
Last month the administrators granted "preferred bidder" status to the Pompey Supporters' Trust.
The fans group, however, is still to satisfy the Football League of its suitability.
Chainrai is owed around £17m by the club and holds Fratton Park as security. And in a statement released to the BBC, Chainrai says there is little point continuing his pursuit to take control of the club.
"We believe that the Football League has been put in an invidious position by the administrators - PKF," said Chainrai.
"It is the administrators' job to manage the administration to a successful conclusion to the benefit of all creditors and yet PKF has off-loaded this responsibility to the Football League.
"First, Trevor Birch (administrator) named Portpin as preferred bidder, then, before the Football League was given any time to actually assess our bid, Trevor Birch decided to suddenly withdraw our preferred bidder status the same day, without any credible reasoning.
"The PST was then named by Trevor Birch as the preferred bidder even though our bid remains with the Football League as they continued the process of evaluating our offer.
Chainrai added: "And Pompey fans should be in no doubt that in my opinion they are being manipulated here.
"Behind the PST bid are a number of property developers who now appear to be becoming the majority stakeholders rather than the PST themselves.
"I believe their interest in buying the club is to secure the land. The illusion of the Trust owning Fratton Park is just that: an illusion.
"In reality, property developers will own the land, but they are using the veil of the Trust's bid as a vehicle to obtain and develop land around the ground without having to spend any money on much needed improvements to Fratton Park.
"I also firmly believe that Michael Appleton's departure is a direct result of his frustration at the protracted state of affairs."
However, PST spokesman, Colin Farmery, said Chainrai's comments were designed to de-rail their bid and "worry supporters".
Farmery also defended the Trust's decision to work with a property developer saying it was essential to the future development of the club.
"We've been transparent in that we are working with a strategic property developer," Farmery told BBC Radio Solent.
"As everyone knows the long-term future of Portsmouth Football Club depends on doing a deal on the land around the ground in order to create a stadium that is fit for the 21st century.
"You are not going to do that on your own, you are going to have to work with a property developer or developers in order to do that.
"It's ridiculous from Portpin to suggest that this is underhand - it is a necessity to work with a property developer."
Portpin's statement added that it would also seek clarification from HM Revenue and Customs as to their decision to appoint PKF as administrators.
When contacted by BBC Sport, administrators PKF declined to comment on Chainrai's allegations and statement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20268344

 

[chiefdave]

Just for info - the official administrators PKF have made the Pompey Supporters Trust the preferred bidders for the club

PKF even managed to make a mess of this and that's one of the things that Chanrai is now looking to dispute with a legal challenge. Chanrai's bid was made preferred then PKF suddenly switched it - you have to say looking from the outside it doesn't look good. Surely if someone is made preferred bidder they have to be presented as that consistently?

Portsmouth could be the first major club to be owned by its fans and community.

this is looking increasingly like it's not the case, of course hard to tell as the trust refuse to release any details but from what they have said people were initially being asked to pay £1,000 for a share in PST who would own the football club. Once people started asking about what they actually would own and if they may at some point be able to sell for a profit, leave the share to their kids etc it was changed and people were told to view it as a donation. It now seems the trust is going to own less than 50% with the rest being owned by a group of property investors.

 

[fernandopartridge]

PKF even managed to make a mess of this and that's one of the things that Chanrai is now looking to dispute with a legal challenge. Chanrai's bid was made preferred then PKF suddenly switched it - you have to say looking from the outside it doesn't look good. Surely if someone is made preferred bidder they have to be presented as that consistently?



this is looking increasingly like it's not the case, of course hard to tell as the trust refuse to release any details but from what they have said people were initially being asked to pay £1,000 for a share in PST who would own the football club. Once people started asking about what they actually would own and if they may at some point be able to sell for a profit, leave the share to their kids etc it was changed and people were told to view it as a donation. It now seems the trust is going to own less than 50% with the rest being owned by a group of property investors.

Not surprising, the idea of fans owning a club so heavily debt laden which spends more than it earns is complete and utter fantasy.

 

[Skyblue4u]

No your'e right you clearly have an expertise in business affairs which is well beyond my limited intellectual capacities.

Thanks ever so much for eductaing me in finer aspects of business strategy.

If you need anymore help just let me know. Always happy to help educate the "special people" on this forum

 

[dongonzalos]

Not surprising, the idea of fans owning a club so heavily debt laden which spends more than it earns is complete and utter fantasy.

It is easy to sit on the sofa and criticise, those who are prepared to get of their backsides and try and do something, about something they care about.

 

[Grendel]

If you need anymore help just let me know. Always happy to help educate the "special people" on this forum

Educating yourself could be an interesting experience. Than again, looking at the nonsense you post I guess that is the explanation.

 

[Skyblue4u]

Educating yourself could be an interesting experience. Than again, looking at the nonsense you post I guess that is the explanation.

You want to start reading back some or your own crap you posted, them in glass houses....

 

[Astute]

Am I alone about not giving a flying fuck about Pompey other than learning how to cheat the system if we need to?

 

[CJparker]

Am I alone about not giving a flying fuck about Pompey other than learning how to cheat the system if we need to?

You're not alone...so can we please kill this thread zzzzzz

 

[Otis]

Can we please kill Portsmouth? zzzzzzzz

 

[CJparker]

Can we please kill Portsmouth? zzzzzzzz

I might start up a rival thread called 'Pompey...who cares?'

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I might start up a rival thread called 'Pompey...who cares?'

How about a 'Marlon for England' thread?

 

[Houchens Head]

I agree. This is a CCFC forum. This thread, to be fair, started ok, but has now just got out of hand. 108 pages, over a 1000 posts? C'mon. Let's lock it down now.

 

[skybluejelly]

How about a 'Marlon for England' thread?

you just won't let it lie

 

[CJparker]

How about a 'Marlon for England' thread?

Nah some brainless tosser did that already...useless!

 

[SkyBlueScottie]

60 million in debt, people being asked to donate a grand, when it comes to the nitty gritty they are not going to get anything for their 1k, there will not be so many "donations" coming in as people thought there might.

 

[Astute]

I would pay a grand to get them liquidated. That would be value for money

 

[ccfcway]

so, the fans will be buying the club

when do they lose their 10 points, or will that be forgotten about as a "gesture of goodwill"

 

[chiefdave]

so, the fans will be buying the club

when do they lose their 10 points, or will that be forgotten about as a "gesture of goodwill"

They think they will get let off. The basis for this is that the 10 points are taken off for coming out of admin with a CVA that wasn't agreed by all parties owed money. They are now claiming that although PKF (the administrators) arranged the CVA they were acting on behalf of Chanrai, the former owner who was looking to take over again, and not the trust. That sort of makes sense but ignores the fact that the trust are using the same CVA. To my mind to avoid the 10 points they would need to have a new CVA that meets the level required by the FL.

 

[psgm1]

Portsmouth's Bid

It seems that the entire viability of Pompeys' bid according to the BBC is that they will immediately sell Fratton Park to developers.

Chanrai currently asking for £17m, the pompay fans want to pay £2.75m obtained from a short term loan (as they only have a few hundred fans willing to cough up the £1000 each).

Few problems they would need to overcome

1) Pompey fans after years have achieved just a few hundred - not the thousands required, therefore a loan is being asked from pompey council.

2) Pompey fans are trying to force Chanrai to sell for 2.75m via courts.

3) Pompey fans intend to sell Fratton Park to developers to fund purchase of team

Problems for pompey:

1) Courts wont necessarily free up the stadium bid
2) £2.75m may well not be a reasonable market value
3) Fratton Park is a listed building - they cannot re-develop

Problems for Cov:

1) Fans would need to get a loan from council to buy stadium from council - conflict in interest
2) Fans expect £2.75m for Fratton Park - I suggest Ricoh is worth far more than that.
3) SOLE creditor is SISU - therefore CANNOT rely on good will as Pompey fans might.
4) Cov have NO ASSETS and £50-60m debt - There is now way a group of fans - however well meaning can get a loan for the amounts required with no assets - unless of course the members are prepared to use their own homes as collateral to buy the team!

Its all very well Pompey getting preferred status, but it only loosely matches cov plight, and cov's problems are far larger and harder to overcome.

The ONLY viable solution is for an investor/consortium to come in and take over. That investor/group would truly have to be fans of the club to even consider this. Right now Cov simply are an unviable entity.

But hey if they want to waste their time thats up to them. Still at least they have managed to get around £1200 - thats just over £1.50 from each member - if you keep raking the money in at that rate they will easily get the minimum £5 mill required in 2000 - 3000 years

 

[MichaelCCFC]

psgm1 - £1200 is money from membership fees used to cover running costs. It's nothing to do with any finance that would be required to buy a stake in CCFC. CCFC and Pompey are not the same but there are lessons we can learn from them. We can also learn from other Trusts e.g. it was the Swans Trust that brought together a consortium to take over their club, even though the Trust at that stage only bought 10% of shares. And other Trusts have raised impressive amounts of finance among supportes and by working with other investors. The one thing that all stakeholders - CCFC, the Council, Higgs etc - have in common is that it is in all their interests for things to start moving in a positive direction. Any Supporters' Trust, whether here or at any club, is only ever going to be of interest to some fans. I guess Trusts attract people who like the idea of supporters having a direct input into the running of their club rather than just being spectators. Maybe it's an optimist versus pessimist thing. Or something I've heard from quite a few Trusts is it's people who believe in getting on and trying to make things happen. Every club is different and the finances at CCFC are just about unique. But i don't see why doing something positive at CCFC is an absolute impossibility. I regulalrly argue that unless we try we'll never find out if the Sky Blue Trust will succeed and the only other option seems to be do nothing but cross your fingers/say a prayer for the future of our club!

 

[Waldorf]

Psgm: there are some problems, wrong ends of sticks, and some downright misrepresentations in what you say. To go through them:

1. Pompey Trust don't intend to sell Fratton Park to a property developer, but to sel the land around it, and use the money to upgrade the stadium.
2. The loan from the council is part of a larger bid, not the sole amount.
3. The Trust have not raised "a few hundred", but as you will see if you read http://www.pompeytrust.com/index.ph...-ready-to-save-pfc&catid=53:trust-information "a seven figure sum". That's in the millions (I believe it's £1.7m but I could be wrong.
4. I'd like to see your reference to Pompey fans using the courts. I've seen nothing. Chanrai doesn't own Fratton Park. The club does. He has a charge on it of £17m, and wants all his money back, not what he might get as a creditor.
5. Who said anything about the Sky Blue Trust buying the Ricoh? Nobody. What they are doing is trying to get to a position where they are able to mount a bid if (and only if) Coventry City goes into admin. At the moment, that looks unlikely, but that's not to say Ms Seppala won't pull the plug at some time - she's known to be a volatile character.
6. PST have been quite clear from the start that the £1000 is what's called a "Community Share", and is repayable, without interest, after a certain time. They've encouraged fans who can't afford it to form syndicates to buy a share.
6. There are several models for fan ownership. Th PST's is one, Swansea's is another, where the trust put together a consortium of local businessmen to buy the club alongside themselves. They now own 20% of the club, and have a seat on the board.
7. When a club goes into admin the debts don't get paid in full, but for whatever the administrator can get, so long as it's in the best interests of the club.

Chanrai's only interest is in getting all his money back. He won't invest in the club, and is quite capable of putting them into admin again.

Whatever your feelings about Portsmouth as a football club, let's at least have sympathy for their fans. How would you feel if CCFC faced the possibility of going out of existence? The administrator has to be hard headed in the whole business, and fortunately has seen the Trust's bid as the most viable way of keeping the club in existence.

I for one wish the PST all the luck in the world.

 

[Waldorf]

Oh, and by the way, Fratton Park is NOT listed. Portsmouth council's policy is that there must be a football stadium there or, if it's sold to developers, elsewhere in the city. PSTs intention, as I said, is to sell the surrounding land, owned by the club, and use the money to redevelop the stadium.

 

[Blue Maniac]

Oh, and by the way, Fratton Park is NOT listed.

Good, it's a bloody awful place.