dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
How's the Cov (Franchise) Blaze doing these days?
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- Thread starter dongonzalos
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How's the Cov (Franchise) Blaze doing these days?
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
So when it comes to selling the club, presumably the stadium owner will be sold alongside the SBS&L group. So any potential future owner will have to be willing to take on a company with £30m+ debts, with no income streams?
That the club and stadium management company may be sellable depending on the overall financial situation. As you say - a play off position in the championship might bring around some interest.
Then again - if they really build us a new stadium, if they get us a reasonable revenue stream, if they get us promoted to the next level and if they get us fight for another promotion ... would we then still want them out? But that's a heck of a lot of 'if's'.
No income streams???
stupot07
Well-Known Member
No that's not my solution. My solution is we need to keep ALL options open and until we see the business plans for ALL options we need to keep an open. There's quite a few (Don and Italia included) that think we should sack off the the new stadium and take any deal we can from wasps, I would at least like to see a proper business case for all options. And as much as I throw spanners/issues into the mix when discussions dealing with wasps, I've never said that the new stadium is the best or only option.
And actually be shirts/empty seats thing was utter bollocks, it's going to look even more ridiculous on TV with our half empty stadium and a load of black and gold empty seats.
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bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Well the stadium management company gets to keep all the income streams apparently, so what income will the stadium owner receive?
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
No that's not my solution. My solution is we need to keep ALL options open and until we see the business plans for ALL options we need to keep an open. There's quite a few (Don and Italia included) that think we should sack off the the new stadium and take any deal we can from wasps, I would at least like to see a proper business case for all options. And as much as I throw spanners/issues into the mix when discussions dealing with wasps, I've never said that the new stadium is the best or only option.
And actually be shirts/empty seats thing was utter bollocks, it's going to look even more ridiculous on TV with our half empty stadium and a load of black and gold empty seats.
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Fair enough, I don't disagree with any of that.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
But we won't get anywhere near 6th with £11m when it's used in league one for promotion then a crack at too 6 championship. It won't touch the sides. The when we fail to get back to back promotions - then what?
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Like some super rich dudes in the Caribbean?
There is so much money in this world that if sisu manage to put together a reasonable business plan they will not find it hard to get it financed.
Of course it will help if the complex include some additional customers - like a hotel, some houses, an IKEA or anything that ensure the whole plan doesn't depend on just one customer.
Lease money? Additional businesses?
How did the 'investors' of the Ricoh recoup their investment? Or rather - how did they intend to recoup their investments?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
So. Although the debt isn't real, it's impact is still felt in raising the bar for Sisus exit?
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
No that's not my solution. My solution is we need to keep ALL options open and until we see the business plans for ALL options we need to keep an open. There's quite a few (Don and Italia included) that think we should sack off the the new stadium and take any deal we can from wasps, I would at least like to see a proper business case for all options. And as much as I throw spanners/issues into the mix when discussions dealing with wasps, I've never said that the new stadium is the best or only option.
And actually be shirts/empty seats thing was utter bollocks, it's going to look even more ridiculous on TV with our half empty stadium and a load of black and gold empty seats.
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I haven't heard a decent point from anyone yet how building a new stadium will have better chance of SISU getting their investment back. In comparison to spending the same money on trying to get to sixth in the Championship. Oh and if you recall I'd did also suggest just spending the equivalent for the new stadium soley on the playing squad and getting 6th. Which does not involve Wasps at all.
Wasps are irrelevant to me. People get confused that because I am not frothing at the mouth at the mere mention of their name that I am some Wasps cheerleader. I understand why they did what they did, why the council and the charity did what they did. It screwed CCFC but that does not mean that I cannot understand it.
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bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
The stadium management company paid a £21m premium to the freehold owner.
There is no reasonable business plan, thats my point, the risk of this project is massive and the chance and amount of return don't justify it, super rich guy in the caribbean may well be willing to put 30mill into a high risk investment where you could lose it all, but if you do that it needs to have a massive upside if it does work this doesn't at all. There is already a better stadium here that they don't believe is worth a small fraction of what is needed to build a new one, how can this make sense?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I haven't heard a decent point to how spending money trying to finish 6th without the guaranteed of finishing 6th let along gaining promotion is in the best interests in the club in the medium to long term, without properly sorting out the infrastructure of the club.
Leicester's owner spend around £125m over 3 1/2 years to gain promotion to the PL. From league One £11m isn't enough.
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bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
The way I look at it is this. Sisu have shown they invest money into areas that they have absolutely no knowledge. £50m lost in CCFC is evidence of that.
Now, what evidence is there that Sisu know how to make a return on a football ground?
If I had £30m lying around I wouldn't entrust to someone like Seppala.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
I haven't heard a decent point to how spending money trying to finish 6th without the guaranteed of finishing 6th let along gaining promotion is in the best interests in the club in the medium to long term, without properly sorting out the infrastructure of the club.
Leicester's owner spend around £125m over 3 1/2 years to gain promotion to the PL. From league One £11m isn't enough.
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They spent 25 million on players over 3 seasons.
I am talking about getting 6th and the moment you do, sell up.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
But we won't get anywhere near 6th with £11m when it's used in league one for promotion then a crack at too 6 championship. It won't touch the sides. The when we fail to get back to back promotions - then what?
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It did with Bournemouth so why not?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Since taking over Leicester in 2010, King Power, the Thai duty free company owned by Aiyawatt Raksriaksorn, has since spent around £120m on the club, including financing a £30m loss in 2011-12. (Guardian 26 Feb 2014 a Leicester still in the Championship - http://www.theguardian.com/football...lay-championship-clubs-threat-football-league)
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Since taking over Leicester in 2010, King Power, the Thai duty free company owned by Aiyawatt Raksriaksorn, has since spent around £120m on the club, including financing a £30m loss in 2011-12. (Guardian 26 Feb 2014 a Leicester still in the Championship - http://www.theguardian.com/football...lay-championship-clubs-threat-football-league)
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The 11 million is purely just on the playing squad you keep forgetting that.
Or
20 million if you ditch the buying halve of ACL bit.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
No their £15m losses were just getting promoted from league one (2012/13), we will find out shortly how much they losses last year to finish 10th, and then you need to add what they've spent this season to get in the top 6. So from the postion we're currently in I'd estimate they have spend at least x3 the £11m you suggest.
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
Leicester's wage bill has been in excess of £28m and that's before transfers. £11m on transfers and increased wage bill over 2 seasons (in league one to get promotion then in the championship) will not touch the sides. Bournemouth lose more than that just to get out of league one, leicester spent circa x10 that in 4 years to get out of the championship....
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
But we don't know if it makes more financial sense until we've seen a proper financial business case.
I agree with your first point though - gambling to get in the PL is a crazy idea.
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
No their £15m losses were just getting promoted from league one (2012/13), we will find out shortly how much they losses last year to finish 10th, and then you need to add what they've spent this season to get in the top 6. So from the postion we're currently in I'd estimate they have spend at least x3 the £11m you suggest.
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Pretty sure Bournemouth reached 6th after xmas last season before eventually finishing tenth.
The point they got to sixth would be the selling point for me. Which is the point from which you should judge what they spent in wages and transfers fees to get their from league one.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
You're not making any sense. So we spend £5-6m injected equity and transfers to get out of league one, that leaves £6-7m for the championship? Which we know is about enough just to avoid relegation if it's all spent on wages and operating losses? Perhaps we could get Boothroyd in be too 6th after 5-6 games and sell up then? How much do you realistic think someone is going to to pay for a club that owns half a stadium, has significant debts, making losses and not guaranteed to get promoted?
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Since taking over Leicester in 2010, King Power, the Thai duty free company owned by Aiyawatt Raksriaksorn, has since spent around £120m on the club, including financing a £30m loss in 2011-12. (Guardian 26 Feb 2014 a Leicester still in the Championship - http://www.theguardian.com/football...lay-championship-clubs-threat-football-league)
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Wow. For half that he could've got a club relegated to League One, decimated its fanbase and made it homeless.
Not spending money also isn't a guarantee of success. Turns out you need a clue how to run a football club, however much you put in.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
You're not making any sense. So we spend £5-6m injected equity and transfers to get out of league one, that leaves £6-7m for the championship? Which we know is about enough just to avoid relegation if it's all spent on wages and operating losses? Perhaps we could get Boothroyd in be too 6th after 5-6 games and sell up then? How much do you realistic think someone is going to to pay for a club that owns half a stadium, has significant debts, making losses and not guaranteed to get promoted?
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It's really not that complicated but you are struggling with it.
Let's remove the ACL/Wasps aspect if doing any deal with Wasps bothers you.
The funding for the new stadium will come from a mixture of Debt and Equity.
The Debt IMO will be CCFC borrowing money. IMO possibly to the tune of around 20 million. (If we are building a new stadium, training facility and academy).
This 20 million is debt we will get on top of the money we currently need to fund CCFC for a season.
I am suggesting if you are going to take on 20 million of debt use it on transfers and wages (on top of your normal planned budget) instead of the new stadium.
If you can't get to 6th in the championship by spending that sort of money (purely on players) then you have seriously got the wrong manager. If you hit 6th at some point after xmas you sell up.
The Premiership TV deal is a game changer. Getting 100 million for last place is phenomenal.
Personally I think you could pull that off and buy 49% of ACL. Which would then get you an even greater return when you sell up.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
BTW have a look at who is currently 6th in the Championship...........
The numbers of the original offer don't work.
You state that £7mil must be paid off the £14mil debt, and that leaves CCFC with £3.5mil debt. Basically this means that Wasps have to pay down the debt before it is split, otherwise £3.5mil of the debt that Wasps just paid off should have ended up with CCFC. So in effect you're handing over £9mil, but saying that you want £3.5mil straight back (in terms of reduced debt). So the offer is £5.5mil, whilst taking on half the remaining debt. It's still the same price that Wasps paid.
Any way you try and swing the numbers, the offer is no better than offering Wasps the amount they just paid.
You state that £7mil must be paid off the £14mil debt, and that leaves CCFC with £3.5mil debt. Basically this means that Wasps have to pay down the debt before it is split, otherwise £3.5mil of the debt that Wasps just paid off should have ended up with CCFC. So in effect you're handing over £9mil, but saying that you want £3.5mil straight back (in terms of reduced debt). So the offer is £5.5mil, whilst taking on half the remaining debt. It's still the same price that Wasps paid.
Any way you try and swing the numbers, the offer is no better than offering Wasps the amount they just paid.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
We would know one way or the other if we'd seen a detailed business plan but our owners don't hold us in a high enough regard to do this but regardless of course building a new stadium will put more debt in the club. Reason, regardless of whatever any business plan might say it's still SISU who will be building it and I would have thought by now every CCFC fan would have realised that that means it's going to be a disaster, over-run, over-spend and be underinvested. So there's going to be a shortfall, debt if you like. So who's going to pick up the tab for that debt? SISU's investors? Or lumped as debt against CCFC?
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Because in the same deal in which they guarantee to cut the loan. We guarantee to invest 11 million in our playing squad.
Which would (if done correctly) would lead to us winning league one at a canter and competing for 6th in the championship.
Which will increase the value of ACL. Marketing Sponsorship and reduce the apparent fragility of Wasps business plan.
Our plan will then lead to selling the club to someone who wants to take it to the next level. (Premiership)
Which would then hugely increase the value and profitability of ACL.
It is far better for Wasps to have a partnership with a successful CCFC
Than CCFC to leave and Wasps go it alone
Plus Wasps are getting £9 million for 50%. Of ACL and losing responsibility for 3.5 million of the loan.
They will be using 7 million of it clearing half their debt making the position seem more stable to CCFC.
They will
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Just stop there for a second. Who would want to invest £11m in players in league 1? (Totally disregarding the whole idea of attracting players worth 11m who could make sure we got promoted could be a challenge).
To put the numbers you want owners to gamble on the venture just suggest into perspective - ask yourself how much would that be if you scale it down to your own wealth/income? Estimate the chance for success - say 33% or even 50%. Now ask yourself if you would gamble your money on a one shot bet at that chance? If you lose you would have to invest another third of that (players wages) to make another bet. Even if the pay back is potentially 10-1. Would you really gamble your own money? And if not, how can you ask that of anyone else?
I read your post like this: 'I want to see a viable business plan, and even then I don't believe they will stick to it because they are stupid and clueless in everything they do.'
If that's the case you are not even trying to engage in a constructive debate like Don is, you're just dismissing all and everything.