shmmeee
Well-Known Member
If we’re just saying stuff isn’t a counter argument then I say this isn’t an argument.
Checkmate
None of this is a counter-argument. Unless we start losing all games without him, or the past history of all our wins when he hasn't played somehow erase themselves, it is what it is. The facts are the facts, whether they are triggering or not.
There's a cult that are incapable of seeing them. Now we are seeing 'we aren't playing the ball out', 'XG', and 'you hate Sheaf' come to the party.
We've literally just won two games with healthy scorelines.
It is possible to be somewhere between your view and Sheaf being flawless.
If we’re just saying stuff isn’t a counter argument then I say this isn’t an argument.
Checkmate
Agree with most of this.I like Sheaf a lot, and I think he's a good player, but the way he gets talked about (yet again here on this thread) is just over the top and ridiculous. It also has a massive negative effect towards Eccles, who gets a much harder time as a direct result. We need to upgrade Eccles, but not Sheaf. Yet Eccles has been as good as if not better than Sheaf this season... Eccles comes on, criticised after 5 seconds for the same kind of thing Sheaf does every 5 minutes. Eccles is a league 1 player, yet Sheaf should be in the premier league.
Sheaf missed games in the last two seasons:
11 wins
7 draws
1 loss
There are no actual counter-arguments to these facts, so other than 'you hate Sheaf', or, 'Josh Eccles isn't as good', it's just desperate whining. We just go on and beat Sunderland 3-0, Sheffield Wednesday 2-0, yet the same usual people: Something, something XG and progressive passing. Something, something Checkmate. Now it'll probably be; those draws in your stats would have been wins if he played.
My brother has autism and he doesn't even die on hills like this with so much plugging fingers in ears and blind idolisation, tantrums, and feet stomping. It's desperate.
Potentially he’s not at the momentAgree with most of this.
I like Sheaf and think he is a really good Championship player. However, Eccles is better than Sheaf and ridiculously underrated on here.
He's played far better than Sheaf this season. I think you are proving ESB's point.Potentially he’s not at the moment
Don’t agree it’s fine to disagreeHe's played far better than Sheaf this season. I think you are proving ESB's point.
C’mon Pete, That’s a whole different meaning without a full stop.Don’t agree it’s fine to disagree
SorryC’mon Pete, That’s a whole different meaning without a full stop.
Agree with most of that. One extra thing to note is Salomoto’s defensive game was great tooCollins - 6 - excellent save second half, but poor with his feet/general decision making. Disappointed with that side of his game, especially as that’s his USP.
MVE - 6.5 - quieter game than previous few, but his pace was a threat offensively and helped us defensively a few times. Even psychologically it deters opposition wingers from trying to beat him for pace.
Thomas - 7.5 - another solid performance overall. Two great crunching tackles too.
Kitching - 7.5 - solid defensively other than getting caught out attempting to turn on the half way line, but recovered well. Some excellent and perfectly weighted forward balls too.
Bidwell - 6 - after a great few games he looked sloppy today. Poor distribution and decision making at vital times offensively.
Eccles - 7 - saw a lot of the ball and generally used it well. Broke up play as always when needed. Wish he had a slightly better passing range, but it is steadily improving.
Lati - 7 - solid enough and did a good job of being exactly that, solid. He’s obviously not going to make defence splitting passes. But I actually thought he constantly showed for the ball and keeping it simple isn’t a bad thing. Was just more evident today as both CMs lacked that killer forward pass.
COH - 7.5 - busy but not as effective. Constant threat on the ball and drifts out wide to make things happen.
Sakamoto - 8 - great finishes and buzzing with confidence. He was constantly an out ball and never shied away, even when receiving the ball in tricky situations in with lots of defenders around him. The Sakamoto - MVE combo can be frighteningly good.
Godden - 4.5 - feel harsh as I like him, but he was honestly a passenger. Appreciate his movement can make space for others, but we need more than that if we want play offs. Not fair as it’s not his game, but he can’t hold the ball up, which is needed when playing CF.
Wright - 7.5 - how confidence can change a player! Constantly wanting to take players on and showed improved movement too.
Subs
Palmer - 7 - good stuff mixed with the occasional sloppy moment. Looked lost out left. Positive impact again.
JDS - 6.5 - good cameo. More direct and offensive than previous games.
Simms - N/A.
I disagreeDon’t agree it’s fine to disagree
Stats like that are bollocks though, as there's too many variables, standard of opposition, who else was in the team, were we missing our better players too.Sorry
Don’t agree, it’s ok not to agree
Sheaf is a better player than eccles in my opinion
Stats interesting when he doesn’t play though
Stats like that are bollocks though, as there's too many variables, standard of opposition, who else was in the team, were we missing our better players too.
Looking at just this season 2 of the 3 wins without Sheaf were QPR and Sheffield Wednesday, 2 of the 3 relegation zone. Both teams you would expect us to beat.
Last season 5 or the 7 games we won without Sheaf were against bottom 8 or so teams who only managed 53 points or lower in the season (Reading, Rotherham, Birmingham, Stoke, and Huddersfield). Again for a team finishing in the play offs games you would expect to win.
We didn't lose a single championship game when Kelly started last season, and won 50% of our games. Our MVP.
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I'd say they're both very similar but tbh I was a little disappointed the other day, thought he'd seize the day so to speak but to be honest sitting where I do I couldn't really form an honest opinion.I've said there would be some denial over the stats, but this is even better value than I had imagined. You're completely incapable of seeing Sheaf in anything other than diamonds and gold, and were at Eccles' throat 5 minutes after he came on for him the other day. This is why it gets called out, and you are proving my point over and over again.
When coming back into the squad this season, we went on a four game losing streak, the first two games were against Bristol City and Rotherham. Let me guess, there were too many variables there: It was due to the weather, or the moon cycle? There must be something else you can clutch straws at.
The season before we also picked up valuable points against very strong teams, but you don't mention that? You do also realise the games 'for a team finishing in the play offs games you would expect to win' we were actually only 13th in the table when he went out injured (having lost 3 of the last 4), and nowhere near the playoffs. We went on an amazing run which propelled us into the playoffs whilst he was out. We actually only won twice again when he then came back again.
Like I said, I know people with mental disabilities that don't behave as childish as some of you with this die hard cult/charade. He's a really good player, but this obsession and point of view he is somehow a million miles above some very comparable players is really stupid. As is the inability to digest facts without projecting or plugging fingers in ears.
You're the only person on the forum with a weird obsession about Sheaf. If anyone mentions him, Or has a slight dig at Eccles you're over it like a rash. Therefore the only cult must be you.I've said there would be some denial over the stats, but this is even better value than I had imagined. You're completely incapable of seeing Sheaf in anything other than diamonds and gold, and were at Eccles' throat 5 minutes after he came on for him the other day. This is why it gets called out, and you are proving my point over and over again.
When coming back into the squad this season, we went on a four game losing streak, the first two games were against Bristol City and Rotherham. Let me guess, there were too many variables there: It was due to the weather, or the moon cycle? There must be something else you can clutch straws at.
The season before we also picked up valuable points against very strong teams, but you don't mention that? You do also realise the games 'for a team finishing in the play offs games you would expect to win' we were actually only 13th in the table when he went out injured (having lost 3 of the last 4), and nowhere near the playoffs. We went on an amazing run which propelled us into the playoffs whilst he was out. We actually only won twice again when he then came back again.
Like I said, I know people with mental disabilities that don't behave as childish as some of you with this die hard cult/charade. He's a really good player, but this obsession and point of view he is somehow a million miles above some very comparable players is really stupid. As is the inability to digest facts without projecting or plugging fingers in ears.
I've said there would be some denial over the stats, but this is even better value than I had imagined. You're completely incapable of seeing Sheaf in anything other than diamonds and gold, and were at Eccles' throat 5 minutes after he came on for him the other day. This is why it gets called out, and you are proving my point over and over again.
When coming back into the squad this season, we went on a four game losing streak, the first two games were against Bristol City and Rotherham. Let me guess, there were too many variables there: It was due to the weather, or the moon cycle? There must be something else you can clutch straws at.
The season before we also picked up valuable points against very strong teams, but you don't mention that? You do also realise the games 'for a team finishing in the play offs games you would expect to win' we were actually only 13th in the table when he went out injured (having lost 3 of the last 4), and nowhere near the playoffs. We went on an amazing run which propelled us into the playoffs whilst he was out. We actually only won twice again when he then came back again.
Like I said, I know people with mental disabilities that don't behave as childish as some of you with this die hard cult/charade. He's a really good player, but this obsession and point of view he is somehow a million miles above some very comparable players is really stupid. As is the inability to digest facts without projecting or plugging fingers in ears.
You're the only person on the forum with a weird obsession about Sheaf. If anyone mentions him, Or has a slight dig at Eccles you're over it like a rash. Therefore the only cult must be you.
They are both good players, and both very similar. However Sheaf is slightly better despite Eccles good performances. It's just a fact, it's why Robins starts him when he's fit, and why he's made him captain. Preferably you'd play both of them.
Whoscored rates them similar with Sheaf edging It despite Eccles having to MOTMs.
I'm leaving you to it now and putting you on ignore as it's just boring now.
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The “stats” you are using are basically the graphs @Philosorapter makes. This is the conclusion of your logic:
View attachment 24587
You're the only person on the forum with a weird obsession about Sheaf. If anyone mentions him, Or has a slight dig at Eccles you're over it like a rash. Therefore the only cult must be you.
They are both good players, and both very similar. However Sheaf is slightly better despite Eccles good performances. It's just a fact, it's why Robins starts him when he's fit, and why he's made him captain. Preferably you'd play both of them.
Whoscored rates them similar with Sheaf edging It despite Eccles having to MOTMs.
I'm leaving you to it now and putting you on ignore as it's just boring now.
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Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.'I'm blocking you' and 'Here's a graph with Jordan Shipley on it'. Not a single counter-argument or rational alternative discussion point raised. I would say I am surprised, but given the nature of this whole thing, I'm really not. It just proves my points over again, and demonstrates there is no maturity to be had. In debate, comprehension, or in humble defeat.
Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.
Moreover, he contests more duels than Eccles, and although Eccles is better in the air, Sheaf makes more tackles and wins more duels. And also in an attacking third gets off more shots.
As Clint says, Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent this season. But we miss Sheaf as when it clicks, he really makes the team tick.
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AgreedTo be fair to ESB1, I think one of his frustrations, its certainly one of mine, is the amount of times Sheaf puts us in trouble, either through a poor simple pass in our half or through losing the ball in a dangerous area through dithering.
It happens far too often for a player of his ability.
Hi Stupot,Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.
Moreover, he contests more duels than Eccles, and although Eccles is better in the air, Sheaf makes more tackles and wins more duels. And also in an attacking third gets off more shots.
As Clint says, Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent this season. But we miss Sheaf as when it clicks, he really makes the team tick.
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I think we're all frustrated by that. It's an old habit he's slipped into again, whether that's lack of concentration, lack of options, lack of movement in front of him, Or a combination of all of those.To be fair to ESB1, I think one of his frustrations, its certainly one of mine, is the amount of times Sheaf puts us in trouble, either through a poor simple pass in our half or through losing the ball in a dangerous area through dithering.
It happens far too often for a player of his ability.
Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.
Moreover, he contests more duels than Eccles, and although Eccles is better in the air, Sheaf makes more tackles and wins more duels. And also in an attacking third gets off more shots.
As Clint says, Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent this season. But we miss Sheaf as when it clicks, he really makes the team tick.
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Remove set pieces from the chances created?Yes, they are both good players and have attributes that can be debated, but you are cherry picking again. We didn't miss Sheaf in the game we just won 2-0, neither in the one before where we won 3-0. In fact, the results in our matches he hasn't played in pretty much show we haven't missed him any time we have played. To come back from that and say 'he's 9% more likely to pass the ball forward'... It isn't the hot take you think it is, and being in such a flat out denial is just digging a bigger hole.
Here are some more stats for you: Tell me, based on these stats regarding 'going forward', which player would you rather have in your team?
View attachment 33012View attachment 33011
There's one player here who has made twice the amount of chances created, assists more, dithers less, but he's not the one people are dying on a hill for... That same player apparently should be playing in league 1, but the other is the first name on the team sheet and premier league quality? The latest round of strawmen arguments regarding going forward seem to be a bit rusty according to this.
Come on, it is getting silly and even more desperate by the minute.
Agreed. New systems, new formations, new teammates & new styles of play don't just affect new players.I think we're all frustrated by that. It's an old habit he's slipped into again, whether that's lack of concentration, lack of options, lack of movement in front of him, Or a combination of all of those.
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'I'm blocking you' and 'Here's a graph with Jordan Shipley on it'. Not a single counter-argument or rational alternative discussion point raised. I would say I am surprised, but given the nature of this whole thing, I'm really not. It just proves my points over again, and demonstrates there is no maturity to be had. In debate, comprehension, or in humble defeat.
Ill explain the graph:
View attachment 33013
That’s the end of a couple of seasons ago IIRC, using Philosoraptors model to assign each player a score. They go up or down based on the result against the opposition, with increases and decreases scaled to the strength of the opposition. It’s a good model for a team and smooths out things like games players and opponents faced so far.
But applied to players, this team metric falls apart and starts judging Ryan Howley and Liam Kelly above Callum O’Hare and Gus Hamer. Because you’re using a crude team metric to try and compare individual players and the sport doesn’t work like that.
Yes, they are both good players and have attributes that can be debated, but you are cherry picking again. We didn't miss Sheaf in the game we just won 2-0, neither in the one before where we won 3-0. In fact, the results in our matches he hasn't played in pretty much show we haven't missed him any time we have played. To come back from that and say 'he's 9% more likely to pass the ball forward'... It isn't the hot take you think it is, and being in such a flat out denial is just digging a bigger hole.
Here are some more stats for you: Tell me, based on these stats regarding 'going forward', which player would you rather have in your team?
View attachment 33012View attachment 33011
There's one player here who has made twice the amount of chances created, assists more, dithers less, but he's not the one people are dying on a hill for... That same player apparently should be playing in league 1, but the other is the first name on the team sheet and premier league quality? The latest round of strawmen arguments regarding going forward seem to be a bit rusty according to this.
Come on, it is getting silly and even more desperate by the minute.
Eccles takes set pieces, he's always going to create more chances, but you know that. Remove set pieces and his chance creation will be no greater than Sheaf's.
No one has said Eccles is league one and no one has said Sheaf is premier league quality. Robins sees Sheaf as one of the first names on the team sheet when he is fit, and most of us agree. No one said Eccles needs to drop out, for me Lati should
We Whilst we won't on Saturday, against one of the worst teams in the league our xG was poor, and quite a few have said we missed Sheaf more progressive passing, i.e. transitioning from defense through the thirds to the attacking third. We don't need him to create chances, we have Wright, O'Hare and Saka, we need to get the ball up to them quickly and accurately. The stats don't lie - Sheaf's passing is far more progressive than Eccles.
The only strawman argument is yours.
There's room for both of them in a midfield, we have Wright, Sakamoto and O'Hare with plenty of creativity ahead of them.
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